A Thieves Hiding Guide

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nunnbt473
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A Thieves Hiding Guide

Post by nunnbt473 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:28 pm

Based on the 10 point hide system discovered by Darge, See here: http://www.kingdomofdrakkar.com/forums/ ... =78&t=6828

Tested on a 15/15 thief wearing FP, +39 HP helm, acid bracers, lightning ammy, attack sash, dancers, RD? gauntlets
two +1 leather rings and 2 BNRs all repaired by an outcast for checking agil / hide variants.
As best I can tell worn items have no effect on hide (unless of course they provide +agil)
Level in more exacting measures and encumbrance to be tested later
Will have to confirm that items in hands stack equally without additional penalty
Eventual testing will be done to see what exceptions if there are any, there are to the rule of weapon penalty (ergo a hally taking less than 16 or a mace more than 5..etc)

On Hex = 0
1 Away +5
2+ Away +20

Hally -16
GS -15
Axe ?
LS -11
Mace -5
Staff ?
Shortbow ?
Longbow ?
Crossbow ?
MA ?
SS 0
Dagger 0
Throw N/A

Tarak Robe +11
Laz Robe +30
Weapon Concealment +.5 per

20 or more agil is +1 agil = 1 hide (That is +1 point for 20 and +1 point for 21...etc etc indefinitely)
+1 hide per skill level

The formula: Class bonus, +hex, + agility, -item in left hand, -item in right hand, -encumbrance

Lairs Ghost(15)
N1 8 points
N2 Orc/Goblin/Rockman 8 pts, Ogre(15), Rockman(10), Trog(10), Dog(15), Troll(7)
N3 Mummy(21), Stunner(18), Thumper(17), Ogre(17), *Sanquin(11), *Hobgoblin(10), *Lizardman(10), *Troll(10), Orc(7)
N3.5 Shark(15), Militia(15), Shaman(15), Orc(15), Rabid Rat(15), Lizardman(15), Phantasm(14), Rat(13)
N4 Thumper(16)

0 Hex 1 Hex
Lairs:
3.5 Ghost +5 Agil, +15 skill, -5 Mace(15)
**Note: This info on N1 section essentially worthless due to lack of proper testing)
N1
Hally 25 blinks (+4 agil)(hex +5)(skill +15)(hally -16) (8)
GS 25 blinks (+3 agil)
SS (+15 skill)(15)
Staff (+15 skill)(-? staff)
Axe (+15 skill)
LS (+15 skill)(-11 LS)(+4 agil) (8) (+15 skill)(-11 LS)(+5 hex) (9)
Mace (+15 skill)(-5 mace)(10)
Dagger (+15 skill)(15)
Shortbow (+15 skill)(15)
Longbow (+15 skill)(15)
Crossbow (+15 skill)(15)
MA ...
**Note: +5 agil means +5 pts of hide based on the above which means the user had 24 agil (1 pt for 20, 21, 22, 23, 24)
N2
Ogre +5 agil, +15 skill, -5 mace (15)
Orc/Goblin +4 agil, +15 skill, -11 ls (8)
Rockman +6 agil, +15 skill, -11 ls (10)
Trog +6 agil, +15 skill, -16 hally, +5 hex (10)
Dog +5 agil, +15 skill, -5 mace (15)
Troll +3 agil, +15 skill, -11 ls (7)
N3
Orc +3 agil, +15 skill, -11 ls(7)
Ogre +2 agil, +15 skill(17)
Troll +6 agil, +15 skill, -16 hally, +5 hex (10)
Lizardman +6 agil, +15 skill, -16 hally, +5 hex (10)
Sanquin +1 agil, 15 skill, -5 mace (11)
Mummy +6 agil, 15 skill(21)
Hobgoblin 6 agil, 15, -11 ls (10)
Stunner +3 agil, +15 skill, -5 mace, +5 hex (18)
Thumper +2 agil, +15 skill(17)
N3.5
Shark +5 agil, +15 skill, -5 mace(15)
Milita +5 agil, +15 skill, -5 mace(15)
Orc +5 agil, +15 skill, -5 mace(15)
Shaman +5 agil, +15 skill, -5 mace(15)
Rat +3 agil, +15 skill, -5 mace(13)
Phantom +4 agil, +15 skill, -5 mace(14)
Rabid Rat +5 agil, +15 skill, -5 mace(15)
Lizardman +5 agil, +15 skill, -5 mace(15)
Spider
Mino
Ogre
N4
Thumper +1 agil, 15 skill(16)

Ive Editted the above to include my research data so I can more easily compare it with the thief I have assiting me who has 2 camos, an alerian n/n helm and the two +1 agil rings I was using. Hopefully by comparing the two as we both gain a skill level we will be able to identify how much a skill level is actually worth at various skill levels.

Edit:
Random testing in various areas.
Skill 15, 24+ agil Vamps/Lich 1
Skill 16, 23 agil M4 Ogrelords @ 1, golems @ 2
Skill 16, 25 agil M3 @ 1
Last edited by nunnbt473 on Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:16 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Darge
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Re: A Thieves Hiding Guide

Post by Darge » Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:51 am

For your notes; generally speaking, thief hide in skill levels was also about equivalent to 1.5-2 levels of hide. I could not model it in any exact fashion, as there seemed to either be some variance in skill level hide bonuses (the oft rumored skills where hide receives a nonstandard bonus) or something else at work.

If I had to peg it, I'd say it's closer to 1.6 levels of hide per skill, on average.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

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nunnbt473
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Re: A Thieves Hiding Guide

Post by nunnbt473 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:02 am

Well for the love of mary and all that is holy I just hope not because that is REALLY going to jack up my charts. I am assuming also that BNR doesnt give any hidden +hide aside from the agil boosts. I will go back and find a few different thieves to test the formulas out on at some point.. maybe I will be able to find any hide bonuses from skill increases..etc.

For a short term fashion I will base it off of 1 and just stick with N1 to N3 for right now. I dont suppose you happen to remember modifiers for things like axe / staff / bow..etc?
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Re: A Thieves Hiding Guide

Post by Darge » Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:23 pm

I never tested those weapons, since Brad never bothered to make viable top end weapons for those skills.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

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Tirith
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Re: A Thieves Hiding Guide

Post by Tirith » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:02 pm

There are 3 classes of bow... Crossbow, Shortbow, and Longbow, and each has a different hide penalty.

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nunnbt473
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Re: A Thieves Hiding Guide

Post by nunnbt473 » Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:31 pm

I'll eventually get around to testing them then since we don't have penaltys for the other weapons. In the short term until I can get enough data from enough thieves at different skills / agility levels I will make a hiding for dummies guide that just says basically how much skill / agil needed to hide empty handed in a given area. I almost disgust myself at the thought of making a 2nd thief just for this purpose, but it might be called for in the end.

And thank you, I assumed the cross / long / short were different, I am also curious if a large warhammer is different than a normal mace..etc. but I think I need a more standardized formula before I can begin testing such things.
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Re: A Thieves Hiding Guide

Post by nunnbt473 » Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:54 pm

More will be apended to this as I skill up both my barb in thief and either RR my thief or make a new thief and test with afterward up to skill 9 to 12 depending.

Data for testing A) class bonus to hide and B) any bonuses at particular skill levels (which may or may not apply based on class)
Note: Encumbrance doesn't seem to have any effect as of skill 2, not even so much as 1 point of agil does.. but given the large bonuses / penaltys at play with such low skill and being off class, I am not prepared to write that in stone for quite awhile.

X = Couldnt hide
# = Number of squares away you can hide without being seen holding the associated item.
Note: Even with 3 bars of encumberment my barb still had a move rate of 3.
Note: With 24+ agil you receieve +1 move rate, in my barb's case.. even while encumbered. (For a total of 4 moves @ 24 agil with 3 bars encumbrance or better)

! means a change from the previous / most similar test result.. ergo just a flag to highlight changes in test data when encumbrance or agil changed essentially.
If an item is not on the list at all, hide could not be achieved with the given item.
X means hide could not be achieved.

Barb Level 13, skill 0 thief. 25 agil with 8 walls surrounding... couldnt find a shadow.
19 Base str / agil.
Skill 1 - still couldnt hide.
Skill 2 - Amusing;

25 agil_0 bar encumbered
N1
Orc
Hally (Nork Store) X
GS (Yeti Island Ogre) X
LS (Nork Store) X
Axe (Prison Mino) 2
Mace (Horseman) 2
Mace (Large Warhammer) 2
Dagger (SF) 2
SS (Nork Store) 2
Crossbow (Nork Store) 2
Longbow (Nork Store) 2
Shortbow (Nork Store) 2
Staff (Nork Store) 2
Empty 2

25 agil_1 bar encumbered
Axe (Prison Mino) 2
Mace (Horseman) 2
Mace (Large Warhammer) 2
Dagger (SF) 2
SS (Nork Store) 2
Crossbow (Nork Store) 2
Longbow (Nork Store) 2
Shortbow (Nork Store) 2
Staff (Nork Store) 2
Empty 2

25 agil_2 bar encumbered
Axe (Prison Mino) 2
Mace (Horseman) 2
Mace (Large Warhammer) 2
Dagger (SF) 2
SS (Nork Store) 2
Crossbow (Nork Store) 2
Longbow (Nork Store) 2
Shortbow (Nork Store) 2
Staff (Nork Store) 2
Empty 2

25 agil_3 bar encumbered
Axe (Prison Mino) 2
Mace (Horseman) 2
Mace (Large Warhammer) 2
Dagger (SF) 2
SS (Nork Store) 2
Crossbow (Nork Store) 2
Longbow (Nork Store) 2
Shortbow (Nork Store) 2
Staff (Nork Store) 2
Empty 2

24 agil_0 bar encumbered
Dagger (SF) 2
SS (Nork Store) 2
Crossbow (Nork Store) 2
Shortbow (Nork Store) 2
Empty 2

19 agil 3 bar to 24 agil 0 bar all yielded the same result.
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Re: A Thieves Hiding Guide

Post by nunnbt473 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:24 am

At a glance Dagger, SS, Crossbow, Shortbow and bare handed all seem to have no hide penalty so assume this to be true unless otherwise stated, though I am still doing tests to confirm it.

Mace (including all hammers; large or otherwise), Axe, Staff, Longbow seem to have very close to the same hide penalty thus far with my limited skill testing. Given for the sake of this short statement: A mace is -5 skill. Holding two maces DOES cause more penalty to hide than holding one. I would ASSUME the penalty would be -10, but I have not confirmed it yet.

Encumbrance does not seem to have any effect on hiding until 3+ bars is the theory I am testing at the moment. Generally speaking 1/2/or barely 3 bars seems to have less effect than 1 agil (Noticed on the N3 sanquin testing at skill 4, 21/22 agil). I have noticed in areas where 1 agil makes a difference between seen / hidden that 105k gold (3 bars on my thief with 17 str) does not make a difference.

If I were to test a series of weapons / items for their true hide levels I would end up using a series of trash crits of various levels at various distances to test it just as Darge did originally to discover the 10 point hide system, otherwise it would be far too tedious. I doubt I will go into testing this in any real detail though since wardens and stilly give the same as an iron dagger and chipper gives the same as a wood as best as I can tell.

18k = 1 bar
39k = 2 bars
81k = 3 bars
604k = 3 bars (duh)

With this much I was still able to hide at the same distance regardless. Further more a corpse uses MA skill and a twig staff skill. Yet I was able to hide with a twig as if I was empty handed, but a staff required 22 agil and no less at skill 4 for the N3 sanquin. For this reason I am lead to believe that A) encumbrance has no effect and B) Each item could have its own unique hide penalty built in; Which I personally would think makes sense. A gem is easier to hide than a corpse even if they both build MA, just as a twig is smaller than a staff even if both are slender pieces of wood.

On a side note: Dont try to hide with a corpse in hand, its very hard.

Without getting eaten..etc I couldnt begin at skill 0/1/2
Thief 1/3 18 base agil

4 Clumsy

Code: Select all

N1 Orc
 0hex
	bare handed	
	mace		
	axe		
	staff		
	longbow		
	ls		
	gs		
	hally		

 1hex
	bare handed	
	mace		
	axe		
	ls		
	staff		
	gs		
	longbow		
 2hex
	bare handed	skill 3, 18 agil
	mace		skill 3, 18 agil
	axe		skill 3, 18 agil
	
	staff		skill 3, 18 agil
	longbow		skill 3, 18 agil
	ls	
	gs		
	hally	


Code: Select all

N2 Orc
 0hex
	bare handed		
	mace		
	axe			
	staff
	longbow	
	ls		
	gs
	hally					
 1hex
	bare handed		
	mace		
	axe	
	staff
	longbow	
	ls	
	gs		
	hally						
 2hex
	bare handed	skill 3, 18 agil
	mace		skill 3, 18 agil
	axe		skill 3, 18 agil
	staff		skill 3, 18 agil
	longbow		skill 3, 18 agil
	ls		
	gs		
	hally	

Code: Select all

N2 Goblin
 0hex
	bare handed		
	mace			
	axe	
	staff	
	longbow	
	ls	
	gs
	hally					
 1hex
	bare handed	skill 4, 22 agil++
	mace		
	axe	
	staff
	longbow
	ls			
	gs		
	hally				
 2hex
	bare handed	skill 4, 18 agil
	mace		skill 4, 18 agil
	axe		skill 4, 18 agil
	staff		skill 4, 18 agil
	longbow		skill 4, 18 agil
	ls		skill 4, 18 agil++
	gs		skill 4, 18 agil++
	hally		skill 4, 18 agil++

Code: Select all

N2 Trog
 0hex
	bare handed		
	mace		
	axe		
	staff	
	longbow	
	ls	
	gs
	hally			
 1hex
	bare handed	skill 4, 22 agil++
	mace		
	axe		
	staff
	longbow		
	ls	
	gs		
	hally			
 2hex
	bare handed	skill 4, 18 agil
	mace		skill 4, 18 agil
	axe		skill 4, 18 agil
	staff		skill 4, 18 agil
	longbow		skill 4, 18 agil
	ls		skill 4, 22 agil++
	gs		skill 4, 22 agil++
	hally		skill 4, 22 agil++

Code: Select all

N2 Ogre
 0hex
	bare handed		
	mace		
	axe
	staff	
	longbow
	ls			
	gs			
	hally	
 1hex
	bare handed	skill 4, 22 agil++
	mace		
	axe	
	staff
	longbow
	ls			
	gs		
	hally			
 2hex
	bare handed	skill 4, 18 agil
	mace		skill 4, 22 agil++
	axe		skill 4, 22 agil++
	staff		skill 4, 22 agil++
	longbow	skill 4, 22 agil++
	ls		skill 4, 22 agil++
	gs		skill 4, 22 agil++
	hally		skill 4, 22 agil++

Code: Select all

N2 Dog
 0hex
	bare handed		
	mace		
	axe		
	staff	
	longbow	
	ls	
	gs
	hally			
 1hex
	bare handed	skill 4, 22 agil++
	mace			
	axe		
	staff
	longbow	
	ls		
	gs		
	hally			
 2hex
	bare handed	skill 4, 18 agil
	mace		skill 4, 22 agil++
	axe		skill 4, 22 agil++		
	staff	
	longbow		skill 4, 22 agil++
	ls	
	gs		
	hally		

Code: Select all

N2 Troll
 0hex
	bare handed		
	mace		
	axe	
	longbow	
	staff	
	ls		
	gs			
	hally	
 1hex
	bare handed		
	mace			
	axe			
	staff	
	longbow	
	ls	
	gs		
	hally			
 2hex
	bare handed	
	mace				
	axe			
	staff
	longbow	
	ls		
	gs		
	hally		

Code: Select all

N2 Rockman
 0hex
	bare handed		
	mace			
	axe	
	staff	
	longbow	
	ls	
	gs	
	hally		
 1hex
	bare handed	skill 4, 22 agil++
	mace		
	axe		
	staff	
	longbow	
	ls	
	gs		
	hally			
 2hex
	bare handed	skill 4, 18 agil
	mace		skill 4, 18 agil
	axe		skill 4, 18 agil
	staff		skill 4, 18 agil
	longbow		skill 4, 18 agil
	ls		skill 4, 22 agil++
	gs		skill 4, 22 agil++
	hally		skill 4, 22 agil++

Code: Select all

N3 Lizardman
 0hex
	bare handed		
	mace			
	axe	
	staff	
	longbow	
	ls	
	gs	
	hally		
 1hex
	bare handed	skill 4, 22 agil++
	mace		
	axe		
	staff	
	longbow	
	ls	
	gs		
	hally			
 2hex
	bare handed	skill 4, 18 agil
	mace		skill 4, 18 agil
	axe		skill 4, 18 agil
	staff		skill 4, 18 agil
	longbow		skill 4, 18 agil
	ls		skill 4, 22 agil++
	gs		
	hally	

Code: Select all

N3 Troll
 0hex
	bare handed		
	mace			
	axe	
	staff	
	longbow	
	ls	
	gs	
	hally		
 1hex
	bare handed	skill 4, 22 agil++
	mace		
	axe		
	staff	
	longbow	
	ls	
	gs		
	hally			
 2hex
	bare handed	skill 4, 18 agil
	mace		skill 4, 18 agil
	axe		skill 4, 18 agil
	staff		skill 4, 18 agil
	longbow		skill 4, 18 agil
	ls		skill 4, 22 agil++
	gs		
	hally	

Code: Select all

N3 Sanquin
 0hex
	bare handed		
	mace			
	axe	
	staff	
	longbow	
	ls	
	gs	
	hally		
 1hex
	bare handed	
	mace		
	axe		
	staff	
	longbow	
	ls	
	gs		
	hally			
 2hex
	bare handed	skill 4, 18 agil
	mace		skill 4, 22 agil
	axe		skill 4, 22 agil
	staff		skill 4, 22 agil
	longbow		skill 4, 22 agil
	ls		skill 4, 22 agil++
	gs		
	hally	

Code: Select all

N3 Hobgoblin
 0hex
	bare handed		
	mace			
	axe	
	staff	
	longbow	
	ls	
	gs	
	hally		
 1hex
	bare handed	skill 4, 22 agil++
	mace		
	axe		
	staff	
	longbow	
	ls	
	gs		
	hally			
 2hex
	bare handed	skill 4, 18 agil
	mace		skill 4, 18 agil
	axe		skill 4, 18 agil
	staff		skill 4, 18 agil
	longbow		skill 4, 18 agil
	ls		skill 4, 22 agil++
	gs		
	hally

Code: Select all

N3 Orc
 0hex
	bare handed		
	mace			
	axe	
	staff	
	longbow	
	ls	
	gs	
	hally		
 1hex
	bare handed	skill 4, 22 agil++
	mace		
	axe		
	staff	
	longbow	
	ls	
	gs		
	hally			
 2hex
	bare handed	skill 4, 18 agil
	mace		skill 4, 18 agil
	axe		skill 4, 18 agil
	staff		skill 4, 18 agil
	longbow		skill 4, 18 agil
	ls		skill 4, 22 agil++
	gs		
	hally
	Mace+Staff	Skill 4, 22 agil

Code: Select all

N3 Trog
 0hex
	bare handed		
	mace			
	axe	
	staff	
	longbow	
	ls	
	gs	
	hally		
 1hex
	bare handed	
	mace		
	axe		
	staff	
	longbow	
	ls	
	gs		
	hally			
 2hex
	bare handed	skill 4, 21 agil
	mace		
	axe		
	staff		
	longbow		
	ls		
	gs		
	hally

Code: Select all

N3 Ogre
 0hex
	bare handed		
	mace			
	axe	
	staff	
	longbow	
	ls	
	gs	
	hally		
 1hex
	bare handed	
	mace		
	axe		
	staff	
	longbow	
	ls	
	gs		
	hally			
 2hex
	bare handed	skill 4, 21 agil
	mace		
	axe		
	staff		
	longbow		
	ls		
	gs		
	hally

Code: Select all

N3 Thumper
 0hex
	bare handed		
	mace			
	axe	
	staff	
	longbow	
	ls	
	gs	
	hally		
 1hex
	bare handed	
	mace		
	axe		
	staff	
	longbow	
	ls	
	gs		
	hally			
 2hex
	bare handed	skill 4, 21 agil
	mace		
	axe		
	staff		
	longbow		
	ls		
	gs		
	hally

Code: Select all

N3 Mummy
 0hex
	bare handed		
	mace			
	axe	
	staff	
	longbow	
	ls	
	gs	
	hally		
 1hex
	bare handed	
	mace		
	axe		
	staff	
	longbow	
	ls	
	gs		
	hally			
 2hex
	bare handed	skill 4, 22 agil++
	mace		
	axe		
	staff		
	longbow		
	ls		
	gs		
	hally
Last edited by nunnbt473 on Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Thieves Hiding Guide

Post by joe » Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:52 am

SS, Crossbow, Shortbow do have a hide penalty..

at skill 28 or 29 I could hide on hex 100% of the time in ccob ud3,
with ss I would be seen very rarely.

If I had to give a # I would say it is .5 or 1 penalty for ss... but it is more than 0

I tested km5 crossbow and pbow.. seem to have about the same hide penalty.. but was a quick test so not sure..

Tarak Robe +11
Laz Robe +30
thats to see hidden not hide bonus (tested)

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Darge
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Re: A Thieves Hiding Guide

Post by Darge » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:21 pm

Testing vs any NPC to determine weapon penalties is a recipe for inaccuracy. What is more likely, is either that variance in NPC level caused an issue, or weapons of the same type, affect hide differently (which I'm reasonably sure I disproved to myself in my testing at some point). There are other factors as well, which make NPC testing ineffective.

The simplest test is to establish a threshold at which point you know for a fact that you have a hide value equal to a characters level, +10, and thus are just barely at the point where you can never be seen on hex. Hold the weapon, or even two of them and note any difference. This is how I determined the weapon hide penalties, and they are all accurate, circa 2008.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

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nunnbt473
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Re: A Thieves Hiding Guide

Post by nunnbt473 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:50 pm

Well with that being said I guess I have no choice but to do controlled testing and ID the weapon penaltys for at least the basic store bought items before continuing any further..
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Re: A Thieves Hiding Guide

Post by nunnbt473 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:55 pm

Thanks to hawk I now have a reliable place to store the data so others can review and draw their own conclusions on things.
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Just say no to fate cards.

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