Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

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Merlin
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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Merlin »

Mantorok wrote:Since I was the squeaky wheel here let me comment.

Fact 1: There are no groups like there used to be. The player base is basically separated into the 78-85 guys and the newbies. While it's not unheard of to get a group outside of Nameless, it is exceedingly difficult and levels are not usually close to each other. In the level range of 18-50 when people are in Cobrahn, one is fortunate to find a hunting partner, much less a group. Even then, you're likely to have levels anywhere from 18-50. Getting groups pre-18 is almost unheard of (sorry new players).

This changes the dynamic of leveling from 18-50 dramatically. Yes, mentalists can burn and possibly clear areas as quickly as others their level. However, a mentalist cannot survive the auto-hit mechanic of the faster scenarios. There is no 'avoid the macers and giants'. You get caught on screen, you're dead. End of story. You can't burn in a faster scenario. This means mentalists can either hunt Timmy caves forever and fall behind any other class (namely Paladins, Barbarians, and Martialists), or they can...

No, that's all they can do by themselves. There's no area a mentalist can hunt in Cobrahn that gives decent gains and doesn't kill them in one round. End of story. If you think otherwise, you're wrong, and I suggest you try growing your own mentalist through that scenario without leeching.

Fact 2: The meta-game has changed since the release of Cobrahn. Melee classes outclass PSI-users in damage 90% of the time. Even 50 and under, the weapons available in Cobrahn deal hundreds/thousands more than any psionic discipline, without drawing upon a resource (EP) or aging as dramatically/at all. You can be skill 12 in any given weapon, pick one up off the floor in Timmy caves, and deal as much or more damage than a skill 20 mentalist with ENERGYSPEAR.

This is problem is only compounded by the fact that several amazing end-game weapons were added to Cobrahn, but not a single discipline has been added since launch. Lazloth, Improva, Sons of Grragh - so many weapon choices that hit for 1000+ on regular hits. Consider that each melee class gets abilities to multiply that damage, along with excellent hits. It's insane. Mentalists get ENERGYSPEAR. Which leads to the next topic...

Fact 3: New ENERGYLANCE is awesome. No, it's not overpowered at all. For 70 EP and moderate stress it deals great damage, and half is physical (bypasses psi-cutters and resists). At skill 30 with a Loriapi staff, full damage ranges between about 1200 (600 psionic, 600 melee) to 2500 (1250 psionic, 1250 melee). In essence, this is the most I will ever hit for without tiers. Actual damage is usually about half what I listed, since the psionic portion is still subject to cutters and resists and is less damaging than ENERGYSPEAR. It's the melee half of the damage that shines and allows me to actually kill things. Would another class my size (30/30) be able to handle more dangerous areas with better rewards? Absolutely (unless you're a healer). But once I got skill 24 and ENERGYLANCE, at least I've been able to hunt in areas outside of Timmy caves, and it's more bearable playing.

Fact 4: Getting from skill 14 to skill 24 is awful, exceedingly grindy, and nearly impossible to do in today's meta. It's a solo game now - at least before Nameless. If you can't hunt solo, you can't hunt. Period. Ten years ago there were groups aplenty and melee classes weren't given the royal treatment with incredibly powerful weapons, but this is a different game today. Even then, a standard Curvy longsword out-damages anything a mentalist can do until skill 24. There needs to be an area that's very friendly to PSI classes (no psi-cutters, low HP, detrimental effects that are resolved through mentalist/healer disciplines, etc). Maybe an area where melee attacks are "psi-cut" down to 1/6 of their intended damage, but psionics deal full amounts. I don't know, I'm just a player.

But, as it stands and as it was stated, I never recommend that a new player play a mentalist or healer. It's just entirely too difficult once you get to about 18/15 with the tools given. ENERGYLANCE is a decent solution for skill 24+, but there are ten grueling skill level between point A and point B where most players will lose interest.


I feel your pain, early cobrahn yes, about the only NPC's you feel strong against are the staff guys in Timmy.

You also have Earthcrush, which is Melee damage and hits everything on hex, Firebreath(with quirks this is even better) which hits the full screen, maybe if your having problems with NPC's hitting you, dont let them see you to hit you(hint hint)

Ments are all about being resourceful, its not supposed to easy, certainly not if your just sitting there expecting to bash the same key over and over like a barb.
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Mantorok
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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Mantorok »

It's the key bashing part is salt in the wound.

Overall, it's that mentalists are a case of maximum effort for minimal reward. Mentalist psionic damage only becomes more and more obsolete as you progress through Cobrahn while any melee class is getting better and better weapons. The gap between mentalist and melee is pretty big to start and just grows exponentially. This, and all the wonderful buffs a mentalist could contribute to a party are lost to the fact that there are few/no parties to be found in the first half of the game. I don't know if the same holds true for Nameless, as I haven't had the pleasure.

As the game currently stands, mentalist is just a sub-par class choice all around. True, a mentalist dominates the 13-18 level range if they're burning the Alerian caves. However, if you take out Teleport, any other class either matches or outclasses the mentalist in all other regards. That might change after the 50/30 mark, but that's 50 very long, lonely levels for a mentalist to grind through just to find out.

I love Teleport so much.

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Stormwind
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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Stormwind »

I'm a bit rusty, but I would disagree. Mentalists are a complex class, just like Healers and Thieves. They require 2 skills, not 1. The weapon skill is important to helping to increase your ability to defend yourself with weapon blocks. As for damage, I have always been able to out-damage any comparably sized Cob level character. Not on a per-hit basis, because that is not how a mentalist is played, but within a comparable amount of time? yup. We can out damage, out skill and out coin any other class.

This does not mean we can solo a lair like a barb can. This also does not apply to specific areas, like UC, which was designed specifically to give barbs someplace that was theirs.

Terrel
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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Terrel »

Mantorok wrote:Since I was the squeaky wheel here let me comment.

Fact 1: There are no groups like there used to be.
Agreed. Don't need 'em. You can still level faster in Cobrahn than other classes.
Mantorok wrote:Yes, mentalists can burn and possibly clear areas as quickly as others their level. However, a mentalist cannot survive the auto-hit mechanic of the faster scenarios.
CCob is intended for big players or groups. Won't comment on survivability for a 25/20 mentalist there, nor a 25/20 barb or pally, cause I haven't done it solo. But in regular Cobrahn, 100meg experience in 2 to 3 hours is easy for ment of that size. IF you hunt the areas that suit your abilities. I'm not going to tell you what areas...test them all out. But a ment has haste, and a ment has tp, and between the two, you can hunt burn down large zoos in multiple areas w/o a break in action. Without dying. Can also skill faster than most classes, in several areas, if you fight like a ment. Much like what Merlin and Stormwind say a post or two ago.


Mantorok wrote:Fact 2: The meta-game has changed since the release of Cobrahn. Melee classes outclass PSI-users in damage 90% of the time. Even 50 and under, the weapons available in Cobrahn deal hundreds/thousands more than any psionic discipline, without drawing upon a resource (EP) or aging as dramatically/at all. You can be skill 12 in any given weapon, pick one up off the floor in Timmy caves, and deal as much or more damage than a skill 20 mentalist with ENERGYSPEAR.
Again, on most single targets, a ment won't kill nearly as fast. But it ain't all about single targets.



Mantorok wrote:Fact 4: Getting from skill 14 to skill 24 is awful, exceedingly grindy, and nearly impossible to do in today's meta. It's a solo game now - at least before Nameless. If you can't hunt solo, you can't hunt. Period.
Again, we'll agree to disagree that's it's impossible. In fact, it's pretty darn easy...in the right areas, with the right hunting style, in regular old Cob, solo.

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Migam
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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Migam »

A general comment, not directed at anyone in this post.

My ment is only 20/17 but I grew that skill without party, don't play alot, yet. When I do play it again, I will find Ccob areas to burn/snipe and be damned if I don't find a way to solo ud1 and ud2 even if it kills me often. Fire/Acid/Ice breaths, EC, even SW then snipe. If I can't coin for yp, then just the breaths. If need be, I will use attack brews and maybe skill staff using SoG spear, whatever it takes. If I can't hack Ccob, then I'll be hasted in Cob all the time. If regen sucks cause I kill too fast, I move alot. You can't alway park and kill spamming, sometimes, ya gotta move.

If Ccob is hitting too hard and you cant be inventive, accept that and stick with Cob, as others have for years pre-Ccob. Or think outside-the-box for ways to gear that might work even if it dont make sense right away. Maybe don't use Lori robe, use more zaps, roots and use mummy robes. Too many pigeonhole the role of a class and wont try more. I knew a healer that skilled up mace, MA as well as his healer skill and had at it. He was brutal.

Also, I know Ccob hits thru gear but I could swear that it doesn't ignore your ES so keep that and Abs up. With lori in hand, should be decent. Heck, string ES/Abs in a macro so you hit one key and do both. If there is gear with ES added, like those greenish cob rings, try that and see if you get hit less.

Somewhere in these forums, Landlubber posted skill per kill in Cob. It's prob outdated but I'm sure if ud3 and a keep crit had skill gain X before, both are Y now. Look at that and look for something similar in gains that a ment can burn and skill off of. If the exp is less but the skill is close to ud3, then it's a choice to make. Or stick to Cob and stay hasted. Sewers was awesome for that.
Starfire: There are two wolves fighting in each man's heart. One is Love, the other is Hate.
Ghost: Which one wins?
Starfire: The one you feed the most.
---Pathfinder

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Mantorok
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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Mantorok »

Concerning Terrel's comments:

It is true that a mentalist can burn in regular Cobrahn just fine. You can stand in the same zoo for however long you need and not worry about being auto-killed at any given moment. 100m experience in 2-3 hours is perfectly plausible.

However, the issue is that other classes (barbarian, paladin, martial artist, and to some extent thief) can all hunt just as easily in Crazy Cob. Mentalist gets outdone in single target damage almost every time, but you fail to mention that they get outdone in multiple target damage fairly often as well. A 25/20 barbarian gets a crazy number of attacks per round... I know my level 16 barbarian can swing up to 4 times while berserk and he doesn't even have quad-rounds yet. Paladins can multistrike down a zoo faster than a mentalist can burn for quite some time; give a paladin a firestorm weapon and not only do they deal immense physical damage to 4+ targets, they're also casting a high level firestorm that many times each round. Martial artists' chi sweeps, while not as grossly powerful as the previously mentioned classes, will stay up to par with a mentalist's burning for quite a few skill levels, and only gets better with better boots. Thieves can't AoE, but they can shotgun down mobs at a surprising speed (3k-5k damage a shank, occasionally pausing to hide again).

All of the aforementioned classes survive better than a mentalist. Barbarians with absurd amounts of HP, deflects, and autobalm. Paladins with high HP, incredible armor, and focus boosted agility, among other things. Martial artists with high HP, energyshield, absorption, and the hefty defenses of martial arts. And thieves... well, they wear the same tank armor as fighters for the most part, plus they hide.

In response to Migam's comments:

You have some rough levels ahead of you. As previously mentioned, they aren't impossible, but they are grindy and awful. Maximum effort for minimal rewards. If you have friends about your level and you don't party, they will pass you up. Every other class kills faster and more safely than a mentalist. Teleport is fun and your saving grace, but it doesn't make up for the ability to both kill quickly and survive zoos that other classes have. Even with ES, you get one-shotted in Crazy Cob. It doesn't mean you can't hunt it, it just means you need to use a lot of con pots and have a lot of patience.

In general closing:

Saying a class is fine because they can hunt normal Cobrahn while the rest of the classes get to hunt Crazy Cobrahn just as easily is faulty logic. Technically speaking, someone could stay in Nork -1 until 50/30. Mentalist is not a completely useless class, but for a majority of the game they are simply outdone by almost every other class in almost every way (sorry healers, you're still only in the party for Combat Heal).

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Merlin
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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Merlin »

If your under the impression a thief can exp faster than a mentalist then your doing it wrong.

If CrazyCob is too hard for you, perhaps wait until you grow a few level in normal cob before going back?

I used to make 100m/hour in Normal cob hunting very specific areas, its very possible because we have all done it, and we did it without 'Crazy' Cob.

You mention in your initial post that you are 25/23 ? At this level you should not be thinking about power levelling, max your skill out to 30 and build up some more knowledge on how to play the mentalist class before attempting to make mass experience.
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Cobra
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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Cobra »

I must have read one of the comments wrong cause I swear someone said the game has changed and is solo based now. That's funny, cause it always was until NL came out. I always thought barbs were the class you had to pay attention to, at least back then, more than any other class. All you do with other class is click a red box. Barbs used to have to juggle target boxes, zerk pool, command buffer, etc. Now since apparently enough people suck at it, you just stand with a tied item and afk.

I started my ment, now 78/39, about two weeks after cob came out. I went to psi tower and used darkness and dancing to kill GD scaler and get armor. After that, I mostly went to sewers and put critsort on and "form espear at 1". I would say skill 14 to 24 took about 40 or 50 hours. Once you get haste, skill is unreal in cob.

I would imagine sewers are still the same in ccob, there's no giants, and it's 95% undead, which is the skill gravy train.

Also, unless it's been changed, you can do forgs with mama RD and not get hit. You want to talk about serious skill gain. Skill 29-30 takes about 3 hours, and you can solo drag it. You might have to train someone to drag for you now, but I'm sure if you announce you're skilling forgs, someone will help drag.

Why do people want to compare leeching in UD3 to actually playing your class and having fun? Yes there are certain rooms that benefit sticks over psi, but psi kill the rest of cob and early NL so fast, what's it matter?

If you want to talk about where psi is broke, look at 55+, not 55-.

Cobra

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