Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

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Mantorok
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Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Mantorok »

In Cobrahn, my mentalist's damage is so low he is virtually unplayable. I deal a fraction of the damage that other classes do while being much more fragile. I've got some hard numbers to back up this claim.

My mentalist vs friend's thief. Wearing the exact same high-end Cobrahn gear (8/8 rings, Lori robes, Nin scales, etc.) We are both 25/23. He is using a forged dagger while I am using a Lori staff. This makes my effective PSI skill level 29. He has 5/5 Enchanced Melee Damage, while I have 20/20 Fire/Energy Manipulation. This increases my relative psionic damage by 60%. Below are numbers tested in a few areas of Cobrahn. Damage is given in ###(###) format, with the parenthetical number being uncommon.

ENERGYSPEAR damage in Timmy Caves

NPC Type 1: 768(793), takes 1-2 spears to kill. These NPCs are the ones usually wielding iron shortswords.

NPC Type 2: 384(396), takes 3 spears to kill. These NPCs are usually wielding longswords or broadswords.

NPC Type 3: 384(396), takes 4-6 spears to kill. These are the NPCs wielding Cobrahn styled weapons.

NPC w/staff: 384(396), takes 1 spear to kill. Staff wielding NPCs with low HP.

Martial Artists: 384(396), takes 2-3 spears to kill. Both open handed and katana wielding martial artists.



ENERGYSPEAR damage on forest floor
NPC w/mace: 768(793), takes 6 spears to kill.

Bear: 268(293), takes 5 spears to kill.

Wolfbats/Rattlers: 384(396), takes 3 spears to kill

Spider (small): 384(396), takes 4 spears to kill.

Tree Ogre: 384(396), takes 10 spears to kill.

Giant (club): 384(396), takes ~27 spears to kill.



ENERGYSPEAR damage in desert

Lizard/Salamander: 384(396) OR 192(198), takes 3 spears to kill. These critters have either 1 or 3 implied psi-cutters.

Ninja: 384(396) OR 288(297) OR 192(198) OR 144(148), takes 18-22 spears to kill. Hitting a ninja with psionics gives damage returns of 1-4 innate psi-cutters. It was random with each attack.



ENERGYSPEAR damage in UC-3

Skeleton/Mummy/Rada: 144(148), takes 17 spears to kill.



FIREBREATH damage was also tested alongside ENERGYSPEAR, as both are staple hunting disciplines. Full FIREBREATH damage clocked in at 835, with 417 being the most common (critters with 1 innate psi-cutter). FIREBREATH was not used in the desert for obvious reasons, while in UC-3 it dealt 0 damage against all critters.

Now, for my thief friend's damage. I tested both normal swings with a dagger as well as backstab damage. In all areas, normal swings dealt 200-750, with an average hit for around 360. Against mummies and skeletons in UC-3 the damage range was 120-700, with an average hit for around 300 due to critters' innate ENERGYSHIELD. Backstab damage ranged from 1800-5500, with average hits around 2800. There was no noticable difference when backstabbing skeletons or mummies in UC-3.
Last edited by Mantorok on Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

Mantorok
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Post by Mantorok »

As seen in this sampling of areas, nearly every critter in Cobrahn has at least 1 innate psi-cutter, with others often having more. Even if critters had no innate psi-cutters, my fully quirked out and Lori-staff enhanced nuke hits for damage that is comparable to a thief's normal melee with a dagger. I assume actual hard hitting sticks would deal considerably more with melee. This is not even considering that at skill 23, both paladins and martial artists have foci and chi abilities that further enhance their damage. Barbarians would be hitting 4x a round with massive bonuses at a similar size.

What does this mean? The mentalist, who is supposed to be Drakkar's offensive spellcaster, is such a sub-par damage dealer compared to all other classes (save healer, who suffers the same shortcomings) would be better off using a halberd. Even then, with only 1 base attack, a mentalist will never come close to the same damage that other classes do wielding the same weapon. Moreover, mentalists have the lowest HP in the game and are often unable to wear the same powerful armors given other classes.

How can this be fixed? I'm not sure. Even if psionics always dealt full damage (768-793 in my case), damage still falls short. If FIREBREATH or similar area attacks dealt full damage, this would certainly make a mentalist's mobbing skills usable, but this is hardly desirable for party play or skill gain. Perhaps some new offensive disciplines after ENERGYSPEAR would make a mentalist playable. As it stands, after skill 14 there is nothing a mentalist can do except leech until obtaining damaging tiers in Nameless.

Please comment and discuss.

EDIT: I realize that the average damage of my ENERGYSPEAR is similar to the average damage of a thief's normal melee swing. This is not to say they are equal and relatively balanced. This is to show that my spear is effectively 6 skill levels higher and also is dealing 60% more damage due to quirks, and is barely on par with a thief's normal melee. Not backstab - backstab deals tremendous damage and I do not claim that my ENERGYSPEARs should be hitting for 5k. A thief and healer have very similar combat ability, so you can technically claim that a healer could be melee'ing for as much as my skill 29, fully quirk enhanced spells.

EDIT: Subject effectively closed with the re-tuned costs of ENERGYLANCE. Though skill 24 is exceedingly difficult for a mentalist to get to without leeching, there is now, at least, a light at the end of the tunnel.
Last edited by Mantorok on Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:43 am, edited 2 times in total.

luckyman
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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by luckyman »

heh well ments are not supposed to be the main killers in the party id say always in the back casting prots to protect those we hide behind but at skill 24 or so you get elance lots of eps to use and ages but does damage at level 30 you get a new staff that improves your psi level even more and for the higher ends level 37+ you start getting tiers my 48/30 ment 1 shots everything in ud3 ccob using tiers so its a breeze but yes before that point he was hiding behind my 23/23 ma its a pitfall of being a psiuser we are not meant to be strong

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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Tirith »

Looks to me like its more of a problem in cobrahn.. Mantorok can you post numbers with the same character in Nork/Aleria/NL?
25/23... + a lori staff is 6 skills, so 29 effective skill giving espear damage of 150 in ud? 300 in other areas just seems low... And of course a thiefs damage is low unless he does backstab.. Id like to see numbers comparitive of other classes of the same size (im not saying all classes should deal equal damage, but there has to be some balance there, if a thief can bs for 5k damage at that lvl maybe a ment should be doing 500-600 damage at least.

Mantorok
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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Mantorok »

luckyman wrote:heh well ments are not supposed to be the main killers in the party id say always in the back casting prots to protect those we hide behind but at skill 24 or so you get elance lots of eps to use and ages but does damage at level 30 you get a new staff that improves your psi level even more and for the higher ends level 37+ you start getting tiers my 48/30 ment 1 shots everything in ud3 ccob using tiers so its a breeze but yes before that point he was hiding behind my 23/23 ma its a pitfall of being a psiuser we are not meant to be strong
ELANCE is not usable as a standard attack - it costs 7 times the EP as ENERGYSPEAR and does not deal enough damage to compensate. Lanapi staff at level 30 is +8 skill levels if I'm not mistaken; 2 skill levels more than Lori staff equates to ~36 more damage with either ENERGYSPEAR or FIREBREATH. Also, the issue is not with mentalists being useless after getting Nameless tiers, it's having to AFK leech in a party to get to that point. If leeching is the primary method of growth for a class, something is wrong with the mechanics behind it.

Mantorok
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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Mantorok »

Tirith wrote:Looks to me like its more of a problem in cobrahn.. Mantorok can you post numbers with the same character in Nork/Aleria/NL?
25/23... + a lori staff is 6 skills, so 29 effective skill giving espear damage of 150 in ud? 300 in other areas just seems low... And of course a thiefs damage is low unless he does backstab.. Id like to see numbers comparitive of other classes of the same size (im not saying all classes should deal equal damage, but there has to be some balance there, if a thief can bs for 5k damage at that lvl maybe a ment should be doing 500-600 damage at least.
It is Cobrahn in a way. Specifically, it's Cobrahn weaponry having such high base damage. A dagger in Cobrahn deals much more damage than the highest tier Nork gear. This is why melee attackers deal so much damage. ENERGYSPEAR is a skill 14 mentalist discipline being used in a new scenario that demands much higher damage. It's the equivalent of bringing your Slicer LS into Pillars and trying to solo efficiently.

There's a reason that as soon as barbarians get to Cobrahn they swap out for a new halberd. Same reason that paladins drop the saber and pick up a curvy LS. Cobrahn weapons deal incredible damage, but there are no new Cobrahn psionics to increase PSI damage similarly.

luckyman
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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by luckyman »

alas that is true but i believe it to all be relevant my ment did less damage than my ma now my ment does triple the damage of my ma things go up and down but they have ways of evening themselves out you cant expect every class to be even through the whole game or there would be no point in having any different classes the way i grinded my ment up was i stacked myself in ud2 starting in ud3 they get es built into the baddies but ud2 has none so my ment did double if not triple the damge in ud2 that he did in ud3 the exp was decent it took some time but it was liveable and i killed quick

Cobra
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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Cobra »

For the original OP, I didn't see where you tested against axemen, skeleton leaders, and swordmen. This was the gravy skilling of cob for a very long time. 1 fireball and 1 spear should kill almost all these undead type crits in cob.

UD was put in as a bone to fix a dead class in the game at that time: barbs. Every other class was 50/30 long before a barb was ever past lvl 35. The fact that your ment can't do a lot of damage in UD is by design. They have the rest of cob to play with. If you dont kill fast in a place, go somewhere else.

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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Migam »

Aye, UD always been high psi-res and lower melee-abs so you kill, upgrade prot gear to live, go deeper and have at it with melee.

Most of the rest of Cob is there for the taking for psi-users and it would be unbalance to have all Cob fall to psi easier while melee users have to stick to UD for fastest gain. I used to MS with lvl26 fs hally in ancients and it was more the 2488 fs onhex then melee that killed em. Meantime psi-types go to arun secret as soon as they learn MT and can burn it and kill the runners fast.

Ppl are just used to staying in UD and killing until 50 cause everyone is doing it. What ever happened to Cob sewer parties? Arunsecret? Even if you can't drag Uppers like before, a psiuser can just psi like crazy without dragging and stroll around when that area is dead. It doesn't just have to be stand and kill regen.
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Mantorok
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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Mantorok »

Cobra wrote:For the original OP, I didn't see where you tested against axemen, skeleton leaders, and swordmen. This was the gravy skilling of cob for a very long time. 1 fireball and 1 spear should kill almost all these undead type crits in cob.

UD was put in as a bone to fix a dead class in the game at that time: barbs. Every other class was 50/30 long before a barb was ever past lvl 35. The fact that your ment can't do a lot of damage in UD is by design. They have the rest of cob to play with. If you dont kill fast in a place, go somewhere else.

Cobra
Axemen, Soldiers, Swordsmen, Bowmen, and Skeletons Leaders are all tested and seem to have the exact same resistance and HP:

ENERGYSPEAR damage in the sewers

All skeletons: 384(396) OR 192(198), takes 3-4 spears to kill.
Random NPCs: 768(793), takes 1-2 spears to kill.

FIREBREATH damage clocked in at 417 and took 3 casts to kill something (not counting an odd resistance likely due to equipment).

Damage for my friend remained consistent.

Does this mean that the sewers are an excellent hunting ground tailored for mentalists? No, it means that the HP totals of mobs are low enough for mentalists to be able to kill. The sewers are just as great for anyone with respirate and infravision (both of which are sold cheap in CC). My thief friend chain backstabs through these mobs at an alarming rate, and his normal attacks, unhidden and unbuffed, kill them just as quickly as my fully buffed ENERGYSPEAR.

The point of my posting is that mentalists don't have any of Cobrahn to play with. There are a few areas we can hunt, sure, but every other class (minus healer) can hunt them better and/or hunt areas that mentalists can't even touch.

Side note: Barbs were never at a disadvantage. They ruled pillars with an iron halberd at all stages of growth, were required in most/all lair hunts, and were pretty much the only class able to hunt UD 4/5 for a very long time. Let's get real here. But this thread isn't about how overpowered or balanced other classes are; this is about how underpowered the mentalist class is.

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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Mantorok »

Migam wrote:Aye, UD always been high psi-res and lower melee-abs so you kill, upgrade prot gear to live, go deeper and have at it with melee.

Most of the rest of Cob is there for the taking for psi-users and it would be unbalance to have all Cob fall to psi easier while melee users have to stick to UD for fastest gain. I used to MS with lvl26 fs hally in ancients and it was more the 2488 fs onhex then melee that killed em. Meantime psi-types go to arun secret as soon as they learn MT and can burn it and kill the runners fast.

Ppl are just used to staying in UD and killing until 50 cause everyone is doing it. What ever happened to Cob sewer parties? Arunsecret? Even if you can't drag Uppers like before, a psiuser can just psi like crazy without dragging and stroll around when that area is dead. It doesn't just have to be stand and kill regen.
So, as a paladin with plenty of HP and defense that a mentalist will never see, you were dealing 2.5k PSI damage a round in an area that's supposed to be a mentalist burning area? This is my point. I can't even deal 20% of that damage with skill 29, fully quirked out AOE spells. I certainly couldn't survive like a paladin can, either, with the lowest HP/defense in the game that mentalists are given.

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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Migam »

Mantorok wrote:
So, as a paladin with plenty of HP and defense that a mentalist will never see, you were dealing 2.5k PSI damage a round in an area that's supposed to be a mentalist burning area? This is my point. I can't even deal 20% of that damage with skill 29, fully quirked out AOE spells. I certainly couldn't survive like a paladin can, either, with the lowest HP/defense in the game that mentalists are given.

I was making an example of how the psi did more than my melee there. I think I tried PWD there, too awhile. I wouldn't burn ancients at all.

The keep itself is part of what I mean, focusing on Lower, Upper, Sewers and ignoring macers and giants as targets just like ppl who do Mormar, MS or sweep the zoo and kill everything but the spears which take longer and then MS/sweep them with the next zoo.

Maybe he could tone the UD psi-res some but not alot. It's a psi-dungeon even if 1/2 are melee, they should resist it since they are undead. Though so is alot of the Keep too. Hmmmm.
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Mantorok
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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Mantorok »

Migam wrote: I was making an example of how the psi did more than my melee there. I think I tried PWD there, too awhile. I wouldn't burn ancients at all.

The keep itself is part of what I mean, focusing on Lower, Upper, Sewers and ignoring macers and giants as targets just like ppl who do Mormar, MS or sweep the zoo and kill everything but the spears which take longer and then MS/sweep them with the next zoo.

Maybe he could tone the UD psi-res some but not alot. It's a psi-dungeon even if 1/2 are melee, they should resist it since they are undead. Though so is alot of the Keep too. Hmmmm.
This would be a good comparison if I could multistrike with my spells. To get a sense of what it's like to kill as a PSI-user, try burning the same zoos by using the #throw halberd command until the entire zoo is dead. The closest I can come to that is HASTEd EARTHCRUSH, which will deal 40% of the damage you pull to the same zoo. I also need to expend 200 EP per round and will likely go through a youth potion every ten minutes.

PSI damage is grossly underpowered in all areas of Cobrahn. There is not one single area that I can hunt as a mentalist that someone else can't hunt better with their class. I'd even venture to say POWERWORD DEATH is just as strong an AOE skill as FIREBREATH. The real kicker is that so many areas of Cobrahn are virtually not huntable by a mentalist due to incredibly low damage combined with the lowest HP and defense in Drakkar, while any class that uses physical attacks can hunt those places just fine.

This is not an unbalance between classes. This is a balance issue with Cobrahn weaponry, as I stated in a previous post. For instance, in Nork with a Fire Giant halberd, you're probably dealing 300-500 damage a swing, not including foci. I'm dealing 800 to things that have no PSI-cutters, or 250-400 to things that do. In Cobrahn, you swap out your Nork halberd for a new one... say a Son of Grr halberd, since that's the only one I had on hand to test with. You are now dealing many time what you were dealing with your Nork weapon. My mentalist, with 1 attack (the stat) was hitting for 1400 with it. I have 0 halberd skill. I don't get a new, shiny Cobrahn spell to throw around. I'm still using my Nork ENERGYSPEAR and it's dealing 192-384 damage now, and things have much more HP.

If PSI-users got some new disciplines that rival Cobrahn weapons, there wouldn't be this wide imbalance between PSI and melee.

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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Ichor »

Mantorok,

In response to your side note: Cobra was talking about pre-UD, for barbs. UD hasn't always been there.

Also, all classes go through periods where they don't match other classes. When you get some tiers, move out of UD3. Two ments and a healer, with tiers and quirked out as you are, make hay on UD4. One ment and a healer could handle it.

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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Mantorok »

I'm aware of pre-UD Cobrahn. I was there with lots of other PSI-users hunting fangs for scrolls and whatnot. PSI damage was just as terrible then, but not everyone was running around with top-tier Cobrahn weapons as soon as they hit the level requirement for it so it wasn't as apparent; as the stronger weapons were added to the game (GK2 Halberd, Improva, etc) while no new psionics were added, the gap only got wider. Back then it was much more useful to CHARM a giant and have him drink a nitro than try and kill it outright, but with any melee class dealing thousands of damage per hit these days psionics have become moot.

ENERGYSPEAR deals ~17.5 damage per skill level, or approximately 27 per skill level when fully quirked. At level 35 (with a NL subscription) mentalists can get Nash's Fury for a whopping 1k damage every two rounds. Between skill 14 and level 35, there is nothing new or useful gained. A similar comparison would be expecting a melee class to level to 35 using only the weapon they got in Nork around skill 14. It isn't feasible for other classes, and it certainly isn't feasible for a mentalist, who is designed like a glass cannon without the firepower.

The purpose of this thread is not to show that mentalists with tiers cannot keep up. It is to show that, when the primary way of growing a mentalist until he gets tiers is by leeching, there is a fundamental flaw in the class. Mentalists shouldn't have to wait until level 35, 50, or higher to be able to either solo efficiently or contribute to a group of equally leveled and skilled players.

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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Ichor »

I would have to say the feasibility is of the current setup is measurable by how many ments actually have made it past the stage you're talking about, and even did so before NL and tiers were introduced.

There are plenty of ways to play a ment efficiently and contribute. The current favorite of sitting on UD3 isn't the only way to do it.

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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Mantorok »

I don't think the past is how current playability is measured - the game has changed too much since 1999. By the same logic, since some barbarians had already gotten through the low levels, there should have been no reason to release the Undead City. Also, all the mentalists that have currently made it to higher levels have done so through leeching. Moreover, my posts identify a range of areas that mentalists do badly in; the current favorite of UC3 was only included for comparison reasons. I'm confident I can go anywhere in Cobrahn and show sub-par ratings for both damage and survivability for a mentalist. Give me some hard numbers showing an area where mentalists actually excel beyond what another class can achieve there. Arun maybe? I don't know, I can't survive there for more than a round or two wearing the best gear Cobrahn can afford me. Same with ancients - and I recently heard that paladins burn it better anyway.

Vague statements saying 'others did it' or 'another area might be better' don't show that mentalist is a competitive or even playable class in its current state. Up to about 18/14 and after level 35, sure, but all that gray area in between is supposed to be filled with Cobrahn. Unfortunately, that's large part of the game where a mentalist is better of benched than in the field playing.

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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Ichor »

You obviously feel strongly about it.

Good luck.

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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Mantorok »

If the early game isn't addressed, it's going to be harder and harder to keep the new players that do happen to stumble in to Drakkar. I know that most of the game is in the latter half of NL, so I have to make the wheel squeak on this side of the game or it's never going to get any attention. Even worse, it's possible nobody will even realize it needs attention.

I've been playing this game on and off since MPGN, so I'll probably be in and out forever. My real interest here isn't buffing my mentalist so I can blow through Cobrahn, but balancing the early game so it's fairer to new players. New players that this game could really use.

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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Elucid »

Small necro here, but the game is at a state where ments can't "cast prots in the back" or in any way contribute to a group in cob because there are no groups. Every once in a while a high lvl person will make a cob group out of pity or a new player will find a high lvl guy power leveling an alt and let him join, but the walking into pillars and getting on the list doesn't exist anymore. Ments are bad enough where when I help new players I just advise them not play a ment because if they make it to cob they will probably find it too frustrating and quit.

Even if they do make it to the promised land, the supposedly non-damage role mentalist has exclusively (sub-par) damage-based tiers to look forward to (guardian is not a real tier) along with the low survivability. The ment's main contribution now is teleports from what I can see.

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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Tirith »

Even if they do make it to the promised land, the supposedly non-damage role mentalist has exclusively (sub-par) damage-based tiers to look forward to (guardian is not a real tier) along with the low survivability. The ment's main contribution now is teleports from what I can see.
You couldn't be more wrong...

To address your first comment about ments in cob, yes it is tougher but there are designated areas where mentalists can hunt for decent gains, and if they can grunt it out to skill 24, they can get energylance (with the help of a group to take on the lair) and energylance has recently been redesigned to better replace energyspear with lower stress lvls and lower ep costs.

As for your comment on mentalists having SUB-PAR damage tiers. Mentalist tiers are outstanding, combined with quirks to increase damage and skill boosts to increase damage, They come out on top with highest dps.

My main character is my mentalist, I have also played every other class, mentalists are not only for mting around.

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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Terrel »

Agree completely with Tirith. Cob is a great place to be a mentalist....they have an easier time hitting 50 than most other classes.

Did it.

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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Elucid »

Well, this discussion isn't really about NL dmg, but I'd love a run down of how they are the highest dmg in a PM or something, Tirith. Aside from that, you guys are basing claims off of 10 year old anecdotal evidence in a time when Cob WAS the game. Now days, a barbarian/paladin/MA will out level a ment all day long with 1/10 the danger and effort in a mad dash to content that they have a chance of actually seeing people in.

Anyone who levels these days can expect to be completed decked out in end game cob gear as soon as they zone in. There's far to many people willing to help because they are bored/don't want new people to leave/want to be nice, whatever. A mentalist does not benefit the same from being twinked to the gills as other classes, especially in ccob. The twinked ment will still have to grunt it out in regular cob, or maybe ccob timmy caves, until he can start doing (rcob) Arun secret. Meanwhile, any of the melee classes will nearly AFK level in UD3 skeletons until they can safely move on to AFK lvling in UD4 umbers/radas. They will get XP and skill the entire time, while the ment will have to XP hunt and skill hunt separately.

It's mostly a difference of damage. Everyone is going to get hit in ccob, even in end game gear. The mentalist has the highest chance of getting 1 shot, due to the hitpoints, but the damage difference between SOG (or especially GK) halberds/rada gaunts and mentalist discs is the real killer, imo. I honestly have no data on how the elance changes could change the leveling experience. I suspect it's not enough for them to scale with the melee classes, though.

What's it really matter though, really? All 1-3 of the new mentalist who make it to cob in the next year are going to leech with someone's alt or one of the 1-4 new melee guys who come along in the next year. I guess it's still fun to discuss.

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Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Terrel »

Elucid wrote:Well, this discussion isn't really about NL dmg, but I'd love a run down of how they are the highest dmg in a PM or something, Tirith. Aside from that, you guys are basing claims off of 10 year old anecdotal evidence in a time when Cob WAS the game. Now days, a barbarian/paladin/MA will out level a ment all day long with 1/10 the danger and effort in a mad dash to content that they have a chance of actually seeing people in.
Anecdotal suggests unnamed sources, often. Both Tirith and I are named sources. We did it. And we outleveled most other classes. Don't expect to outlevel a barb in UD...ments don't fare well there, but flip side of the coin, they level much better than barbs in other areas. AoE spells.

As for AFK leveling? Well, no. Not solo. A barb has to hit "b" every once in a while....so maybe it's half afk...but every other class needs to be paying attention. If by AFK leveling you mean leeching, then sure...but a ment leeches exactly as well as any other class leeches.

Gear? Yes....all of my point above assume even gear. A poorly geared ment isn't going to level quickly, just like a poorly geared barb, pally, or MA won't either. But good gear, and a ment will level faster than a pally, or an MA, or a healer, or thief, in Cob. IF you figure out where to hunt.

Mantorok
Posts: 47
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:57 pm

Re: Mentalist damage is unbalanced... in a bad way.

Post by Mantorok »

Since I was the squeaky wheel here let me comment.

Fact 1: There are no groups like there used to be. The player base is basically separated into the 78-85 guys and the newbies. While it's not unheard of to get a group outside of Nameless, it is exceedingly difficult and levels are not usually close to each other. In the level range of 18-50 when people are in Cobrahn, one is fortunate to find a hunting partner, much less a group. Even then, you're likely to have levels anywhere from 18-50. Getting groups pre-18 is almost unheard of (sorry new players).

This changes the dynamic of leveling from 18-50 dramatically. Yes, mentalists can burn and possibly clear areas as quickly as others their level. However, a mentalist cannot survive the auto-hit mechanic of the faster scenarios. There is no 'avoid the macers and giants'. You get caught on screen, you're dead. End of story. You can't burn in a faster scenario. This means mentalists can either hunt Timmy caves forever and fall behind any other class (namely Paladins, Barbarians, and Martialists), or they can...

No, that's all they can do by themselves. There's no area a mentalist can hunt in Cobrahn that gives decent gains and doesn't kill them in one round. End of story. If you think otherwise, you're wrong, and I suggest you try growing your own mentalist through that scenario without leeching.

Fact 2: The meta-game has changed since the release of Cobrahn. Melee classes outclass PSI-users in damage 90% of the time. Even 50 and under, the weapons available in Cobrahn deal hundreds/thousands more than any psionic discipline, without drawing upon a resource (EP) or aging as dramatically/at all. You can be skill 12 in any given weapon, pick one up off the floor in Timmy caves, and deal as much or more damage than a skill 20 mentalist with ENERGYSPEAR.

This is problem is only compounded by the fact that several amazing end-game weapons were added to Cobrahn, but not a single discipline has been added since launch. Lazloth, Improva, Sons of Grragh - so many weapon choices that hit for 1000+ on regular hits. Consider that each melee class gets abilities to multiply that damage, along with excellent hits. It's insane. Mentalists get ENERGYSPEAR. Which leads to the next topic...

Fact 3: New ENERGYLANCE is awesome. No, it's not overpowered at all. For 70 EP and moderate stress it deals great damage, and half is physical (bypasses psi-cutters and resists). At skill 30 with a Loriapi staff, full damage ranges between about 1200 (600 psionic, 600 melee) to 2500 (1250 psionic, 1250 melee). In essence, this is the most I will ever hit for without tiers. Actual damage is usually about half what I listed, since the psionic portion is still subject to cutters and resists and is less damaging than ENERGYSPEAR. It's the melee half of the damage that shines and allows me to actually kill things. Would another class my size (30/30) be able to handle more dangerous areas with better rewards? Absolutely (unless you're a healer). But once I got skill 24 and ENERGYLANCE, at least I've been able to hunt in areas outside of Timmy caves, and it's more bearable playing.

Fact 4: Getting from skill 14 to skill 24 is awful, exceedingly grindy, and nearly impossible to do in today's meta. It's a solo game now - at least before Nameless. If you can't hunt solo, you can't hunt. Period. Ten years ago there were groups aplenty and melee classes weren't given the royal treatment with incredibly powerful weapons, but this is a different game today. Even then, a standard Curvy longsword out-damages anything a mentalist can do until skill 24. There needs to be an area that's very friendly to PSI classes (no psi-cutters, low HP, detrimental effects that are resolved through mentalist/healer disciplines, etc). Maybe an area where melee attacks are "psi-cut" down to 1/6 of their intended damage, but psionics deal full amounts. I don't know, I'm just a player.

But, as it stands and as it was stated, I never recommend that a new player play a mentalist or healer. It's just entirely too difficult once you get to about 18/15 with the tools given. ENERGYLANCE is a decent solution for skill 24+, but there are ten grueling skill level between point A and point B where most players will lose interest.

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