Request For Feedback / Grouping /Partying

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Brad
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Request For Feedback / Grouping /Partying

Post by Brad »

Going forward, i'd like to adjust our party system so that we have a more "friendly" grouping system. The goal would be to allow friends of any level to hunt together,
while preventing the horrendous "leeching/bottling/super power leveling" which destroys long term fun ofthe game.

I wanted to pitch two ideas for discussion.

1) Truely "scaled" experience gain
- Allow grouping between characters of any level difference, but scale each experience gain such that everyone gains the same "percentage" of "next level" experience, instead
of some uber amount. This would allow a level 50 to hunt with a level 20, but prevent the level 20 from getting megs of experience and blowing through.

- Example:
Bob is level 40, and level 41 - 40 is 10 megs of experience
Ted is level 30, and level 31 - 30 is 5 megs of experience

A creature worth 1 meg is killed. Bob, being the highest, gets the 1 meg. This 1 meg is 10% of his exp needed, so TED gets 10% of what he needs, or 500K

- This would allow hunting with friends, without great concern over how inflated the experience gain is for the lower level person.
( This system has been used successfully in other games )

2) Reverse-sidekick system (exemplar system)
In this system, the highest level person can chose to take penalties to their damage/attack/heath/saves which equate them to the average party level. Then the risk is appropriate for all involved.
If a level 50 is hunting with a level 30, the level 50 will be "scaled down" to match the abilities of the level 30s ( through a simple percentage system ). Then experience
gain can be normal, with both receiving a split of the pie equally.

( This system is also used by a popular MMO ).


With either of these two methods, we would get rid of the rampant inflation of "power leveling" lower party members with little/no risk, but also keep friends "hunting together". Future content doesn't have to have quite so many "locked doors" and "keyed areas"... Access can be more party based.


Please discuss, and please stay on topic... both would be tricky to code, but we could get these in before we open new areas up, and maybe relax some of the exp gain restrictions.

Thanks
Brad

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Re: Request For Feedback / Grouping /Partying

Post by Martialarts »

So let me understand this the exp cut is = to 1/2 of 40 to 30 ? is that correct? if Bob got 1 meg then ted would get 500k? is that about right?

And a side kick then is what ? Like My thief and my ma go together and you bring down my ma to his lvl is that about right? so if my ma would get 10 megs per killl theif would get lets 2 megs per kill.. then the ma would be reduced to 2 megs per kill and thief would get what ??

The 1st part with bob and Ted sounds about right. But then at lvl lets sat a lvl 78 hunts with a lvl 50 is it then equal again? I am not sure what your saying but Bob and Ted sounds better. I think
Last edited by Martialarts on Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Request For Feedback / Grouping /Partying

Post by edfrmfla »

the bob and ted one does sound better

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Re: Request For Feedback / Grouping /Partying

Post by Brad »

Note: Please remember to stay on topic. No ma/pally bashing or off topic comments.

K, on the second method.

Basically, its a system where you scale damage / health so that the higher level player is "less efficient".. its as if he is fighting with one hand tied behind his back, so that
others in the party can "learn"

Its the City of Heroes exemplar/sidekick method, which i always kind of liked.

The first system ( experience scaling ), is definitely more direct and easily understood. I just wanted to get some thoughts on both.

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Re: Request For Feedback / Grouping /Partying

Post by Yohon »

Could I at least get an idea what was not acceptable from my edited post? Sorry not meaning to make an issue just trying to find out what is unacceptable?

Bob and ted would be my choice barring others
Last edited by Yohon on Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Request For Feedback / Grouping /Partying

Post by Tirith »

Hmm.. I think the first method would be easier, quicker to code and get some sort of balance with exp gain into the game..
I can't see majority of players wanting to be weakened while playing with smaller characters.. Players seem to enjoy being uber. Either way I think both ways can help make game better in these regards.

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Re: Request For Feedback / Grouping /Partying

Post by Brad »

The #2 system may be a bit overly complex for drakkar.. because you can't directly scale damage as in some games ( where you can put DPS into a formula scaled by level ).

*BUT* It does mean that you could hunt with your level 1 buddy and still have him feel some excitement.

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Re: Request For Feedback / Grouping /Partying

Post by Martialarts »

The Question is Will it hurt the larger player if he helps not sure then the party as a whole can last in any gdh area its lope sided now a lvl 50 cant really hunt there and do the quests required. If your taking into account that most lvl 60 players not all but most go skill locked at 35 until they hit 70. So im not sure what the answer is..

I think cap system lvl vs exp here would be best to utilize I see it as the true fair way cap the gain in exp vs the lvl of player. Makes for slow growth but moves it forward at a decent pace. Just like you cap Stats from nork to cob to nl get my Drift not sure im explaining it right but im trying.
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Re: Request For Feedback / Grouping /Partying

Post by Brad »

chaos wrote:why have a forum for a game if your only going to talk to certain people there was no bashing going on i simply said MAS are over powered and there the ones that are power lvling everyone thats the topic here anit it?
I'm letting this one stay in thread as an example.

Please stay focused on the TOPIC. Which involves changes to the group/partying system. This is not a thread for soap boxing other issues.

Any other posts off topic will be removed.

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Re: Request For Feedback / Grouping /Partying

Post by Brad »

Martialarts wrote:The Question is Will it hurt the larger player if he helps not sure then the party as a whole can last in any gdh area its lope sided now a lvl 50 cant really hunt there and do the quests required. If your taking into account that most lvl 60 players not all but most go skill locked at 35 until they hit 70. So im not sure what the answer is..

I think cap system lvl vs exp here would be best to utilize I see it as the true fair way cap the gain in exp vs the lvl of player. Makes for slow growth but moves it forward at a decent pace. Just like you cap Stats from nork to cob to nl get my Drift not sure im explaining it right but im trying.

Also MA, what it would do is allow you to have a pretty diverse mix of party members. two level 50s and a level 25 are hunting together.. the level 50s wouldnt get penalized, but the level 25's experience would be scaled. ... Though.. it would be cool if we could scale the to-hit of the level 25, so he could PARTICIPATE ( with is also a method of sidekick ).. ( BTW we are looking into how GDH scales, even in parties )

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Re: Request For Feedback / Grouping /Partying

Post by Tirith »

I wish i could remove your off topic posts. But I can't so I'll just say.. Start a new topic on discussion of the issue you are talking about (personally, i agree and I think alot others do as well)
However this thread is about an entirely different subject, Grouping and Partying methods..
So Back to the topic.. As you said brad, the sidekick method does seem overcomplicated for drakkar and I'm not sure how that would work, as if the lower levels got their to-hit scaled up as to be able to hunt with higher ups. It would encourage these lower level players to go to higher areas, they may not have the health to survive even if their to-hit has been raised...

I think you can really divide this game into 2 different games, sortof. Primal and Non-Primal.. The non primal game is suffering due to the low number of non primal players.. Whereas the Primal side of the game is overinflated.. The game is unbalanced. Perhaps a sidekick method for non primal so that these low number of non primal can play together and gain together and have fun.. However I dont think non primal have a place in the primal part of the game..

Edit- To those who can't control themselves and be more mature.. Go to runescape, we can do without your attitudes here.
Last edited by Tirith on Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Request For Feedback / Grouping /Partying

Post by chaos »

topic was about partying and grouping and the first post was about power lvling i said what i think and it was deleted if my name was tir it wouldent have been

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Re: Request For Feedback / Grouping /Partying

Post by Volcom »

I think these are some really good ideas. A combination of your 1 and 2 even sounds interesting. Does this mean that you could take your lvl 40 pal to a bdc hunt and they would actually be able to have some fun and join in?

I was also thinking, kinda like AA's acid how it harder hitting the more people in range. Could all lairs be scaled based on your group size including the loot? For example, if 2 friends wanted to kill foodguardian would they be able to go and kill the lair but the loot that is dropped would be less or possibly none. But if a group of 10 friends wanted to kill foodguardian the lair would be a greater challenge but u would be guaranteed multiple gloves and sashs. i almost picture this as sort of a instance type thing which i know drakkar is not. but have the same lair with a easy mode for a couple of friends who want to try there luck, a medium mode for a few more friends, and then a hard mode for the big groups. And each lvl the loot that is dropped is scaled accordingly. Im not sure something like that would be possible without the introduction of instance based lairs and thats not drak style but sounds neat in my head haha. Or possibly u have to talk to a npc and start the lair off at whatever difficulty u want to try and the rewards for killing the hardest difficulty are much greater than the minimal rewards u would get for the easy difficulty.

The ability for a couple of friends to achieve success on said lair but with a greatly reduced chance of getting that item you're gunning for would be helpful to the small player population. They could see the light at the end of the tunnel and not require an army. But also have the option for a full size group to show what they are made of and the rewards for success would resemble such difficulty.
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Re: Request For Feedback / Grouping /Partying

Post by Martialarts »

Also MA, what it would do is allow you to have a pretty diverse mix of party members. two level 50s and a level 25 are hunting together.. the level 50s wouldnt get penalized, but the level 25's experience would be scaled. ... Though.. it would be cool if we could scale the to-hit of the level 25, so he could PARTICIPATE ( with is also a method of sidekick ).. ( BTW we are looking into how GDH scales, even in parties )
Well then we are in agreement if that is what your saying.. I like the party thing now seems the best way to teach and help people learn.. Makes the game fun and honestly im all for it if it works i say lets try it and see were it goes.. I will carrry on this conversation to all my mates and see what they think... Makes more sense then anything else.. Thanks for the conversation..
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Re: Request For Feedback / Grouping /Partying

Post by Brad »

Volcom wrote:The ability for a couple of friends to achieve success on said lair but with a greatly reduced chance of getting that item you're gunning for would be helpful to the small player population. They could see the light at the end of the tunnel and not require an army. But also have the option for a full size group to show what they are made of and the rewards for success would resemble such difficulty.
This would be easier if drakkar was "evenly scaled".. But loot is specific, not longsword_level_10 ( etc, where you could easily scale it ).

However, we could do up scaling/downscaling of general power level of the PLAYERS... i *THINK* would take a lot of testing though. I wonder what it would be like if
you build some sort of "to hit" and "damage" scaling into a sidekick system...

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Re: Request For Feedback / Grouping /Partying

Post by Volcom »

the idea's excite me! the developers testing and playing with different idea's makes me happy to have my account paid. I love to be able to be involved with testing and fiddling and have the opportunity to give useful feedback on what i noticed while playing with such idea's. Is there still something hogging up the test server?
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Re: Request For Feedback / Grouping /Partying

Post by Teh_Cheat »

These seem like interesting concepts. I know WoW is considering using the system from CoH as well.

I think the system works best allowing players of a larger level to scale themselves down to hunt in areas with friends. One of the perks to growing your character to a larger size is seeing the higher scaled content. It'd be nice to see a max level character handicapped if he attempted to help his friend on a Chipuda hunt, or even a group of friends having to scale themselves down to the point where Chipuda became a challenge for all in the party. This could work the same for hunting an area like UD as a group.

Maybe change the way loot is given out on a lair. For instance, you have to be in a party to be able to loot the staff off of Chipuda. This way players couldn't just solo it for their friends as they did now. They would have to get a couple more people to join in and help him earn his staff instead of just dropping it at the portals for him to loot there.
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Re: Request For Feedback / Grouping /Partying

Post by Volcom »

the loot dropping from high lvl players like a chip staff in portals i think has been a bit off for a long time. if the staff requires lvl 18 the player should have to be 18 to even pick it up, and your idea of them having to be in party i agree with, or possibly even have to see death (much like tanning) would be great as well.
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Re: Request For Feedback / Grouping /Partying

Post by Brad »

Volcom wrote:the loot dropping from high lvl players like a chip staff in portals i think has been a bit off for a long time. if the staff requires lvl 18 the player should have to be 18 to even pick it up, and your idea of them having to be in party i agree with, or possibly even have to see death (much like tanning) would be great as well.
The system wouldn't affect REAL level (Talking about method 2, or a modification of it ).. so it wouldn't affect your ability to loot stuff. Just your ability to participate in the hunt.

Really, the net effect of either system is just the ability to play with friends, WITHOUT the lopsided experience gain ( or lack thereof ).

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Re: Request For Feedback / Grouping /Partying

Post by Darge »

There's also the consideration of kill rate to think about. If bob gains half of what ted does, but ted is killing 10 times as fast, that still means bob is gaining experience at 5 times the rate (which would seem too good to be true). Obviously this is more a matter of tuning and the like, but it's worth bringing attention to in order to prevent oversight.

In my opinion, system 1 is better. If X player works for their gear and levels, etc, they shouldn't be made to feel weak by partying with lower levels. System 2 takes away from a player's accomplishments in a way through this scaling down.
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Re: Request For Feedback / Grouping /Partying

Post by Martialarts »

Darge I even think I agree with your post but to preserve the game 1/2 of the rate is still slow once again i like the cap lvl Makes some sense right now if your under 18 NL exp sucks same if your under 25 from cob.

Making a mid lvl area from 25 to 50 and caping that rate for lvl 50 or less players makes some sense as well. Cob is a great place until lvl 35. But totaly agree If there is a choice for a party system I would like Bob and Teds example. The kill rate would still allow for slower growth and instead lets make it so we teach as we help not just one sided. I think would have some personal responsabilty as well as common sense.. End gamers will come and go but to slow of growth will also have the same effect..

Brad give some thought to more quests you Have Omni doing events why not add that time to content making more quests in nork and aleria cob as well as gdh sdc nl.. You can always give skill or stats or items in the quests. Not simple ones but ones that require you to do many things in a group and solo it can be accomplished.. The idea of making a Side Kick scaling thing would be cool more over being able to scale larger player down and scale lairs to the abilities would be very cool as well.

Great topic and really taking the bull by the horns.
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Re: Request For Feedback / Grouping /Partying

Post by Cobra »

I see a lot of talk about the sidekick system. What about the system employed in EQ2, where you actually become your friends lvl again. I don't know how it would work with drak, but just throwing it out there as something that has been tried in other another game.

Also, unless I'm misunderstanding #1, lvl 21-50 take the same xp per lvl, so a 50 could hunt with a 20 and each receive the same xp? Not that I see that as a bad thing, 420 megs takes a while no matter where you go. It would also keep cob around a little longer because you're big friends that aren't ready for NL can still hunt with you in cob.

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Re: Request For Feedback / Grouping /Partying

Post by Brad »

Darge wrote: ... If X player works for their gear and levels, etc, they shouldn't be made to feel weak by partying with lower levels. System 2 takes away from a player's accomplishments in a way through this scaling down.
Do you really think someone would feel cheated if someone could be "survivable" with a friend in a group? Their equipment isnt REALLY getting any better, and they can only survive as long as they stay near their friend. I never really felt cheated in CoH, and I actually enjoyed having younger players in the groups with me.

Just curious,
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Re: Request For Feedback / Grouping /Partying

Post by Darge »

I meant it from the other perspective, that the larger player being scaled to be on par with something like N6 NPC's diminishes what that player has achieved. I do think the system 2 concept has it's merit, but if I go back to N6, I don't want to feel like I did when I actually hunted there. I want to smash heads.

A sliding scale penalty may be appropriate, so that you feel powerful while not being lowered to the extent of being on par with your lower level party members.
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Re: Request For Feedback / Grouping /Partying

Post by GhostGuest »

I got a feeling that method #2 would be a much better system overall, for I can see where method #1 can still lead to exploiting much more readily than method #2. As I see it it's the difference between straight experience scaling, method #1, vs. ability scaling, method #2. Take for example a level 50 joins a level 1 player. If just the experience is scaled, just where could the level 50 take that level 1 player? If the level 1 just stays out of the way, n-4, n-6 or even deeper is possible. Sure, the level 50 would have no problem, get little exp, and still be able “to smash heads". But the level 1 would be getting way more exp, and lair kills, than he should be able to get. Seems to me this is just the thing we are talking about preventing. With method #2, the level 50's abilities would be reduced to about that of the level 1, and would keep the playing to much more "normal" areas for the level 1 player. It still is not perfect, because the level 50's gear, knowledge and experience would still give him and the level 1 player a huge advantage, so that peeps like Darge can still fulfill their " I want to smash heads" desires. Just my thoughts.

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