LimInvis

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RayonMazter
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LimInvis

Post by RayonMazter »

Half issue, half suggestion.

LimInvis is completely useless later, and it gets kind of ridiculous to have to cast darkness a hundred times to walk 'across' an unshadowed area since...even mid-game everything sees through it (especially in cob). Thieves suck for taking damage, as brad said it, they are meant to not be seen. Kind of hard to do when you can only stick to walls.

Would it not be fair to have liminv give a hide at the level of your Thief skill? Still keeping it so attacking kills it, but otherwise LimInv is completely useless for anyone above level 20.

agi bonuses still applying, but based on the player it was casted on, not the caster. Just a thought.

In any case, please come up with something to allow thieves to go unseen in open areas, whether it be hide (possible skill bonus at 30+?? *wink wink?*, or my liminv suggestion)

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Quaternion
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Re: LimInvis

Post by Quaternion »

There are high lvl areas where crits don't see through liminv and it is very useful.


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Re: LimInvis

Post by RayonMazter »

Yep. How's the bog going for you? No problems there as a thief right? :lol:

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Re: LimInvis

Post by Migam »

RayonMazter wrote:Yep. How's the bog going for you? No problems there as a thief right? :lol:
I have no problems there as a thief that some ingenuity and planning can't overcome.
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RayonMazter
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Re: LimInvis

Post by RayonMazter »

Migam wrote:
RayonMazter wrote:Yep. How's the bog going for you? No problems there as a thief right? :lol:
I have no problems there as a thief that some ingenuity and planning can't overcome.
Yeah? How's that working out? Hiding (after casting dark, then infravision, or vice versa) and using tiers as they run off-screen most of the time?

I understand you have a maxed pally as well, but to consider having a thief as your 'main' you are very limited in any open areas, ESPECIALLY where you can only walk 1 hex at a time.

Also, what exactly is your argument against my request? Or are you just advertising your thief in an inappropriate place to try to brag? I'm not trying to attack you, but you responded to a question aimed at someone elses response; assuming you are not quat, your response makes no sense for any debate here and is pointlessly overriding my topic.

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Re: LimInvis

Post by Ingmar »

Im using liminvis alot in gdh.

Gr.

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Darge
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Re: LimInvis

Post by Darge »

Invest in Illusion bracers.

I did suggest this:

Veil of Shadows- Self cast. While affected, a thief may hide on any hex, even if the hex is not up against walls or near shadows. 10 round duration, 30 round recast.

about a month back, among numerous other things. My intention was for a tier to use while running around, with some combat applicability though. Not exactly what you're suggesting.

I agree with Migam.
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Re: LimInvis

Post by Migam »

RayonMazter wrote:
Migam wrote:
RayonMazter wrote:Yep. How's the bog going for you? No problems there as a thief right? :lol:
I have no problems there as a thief that some ingenuity and planning can't overcome.
I understand you have a maxed pally as well, but to consider having a thief as your 'main' you are very limited in any open areas, ESPECIALLY where you can only walk 1 hex at a time.

Also, what exactly is your argument against my request? Or are you just advertising your thief in an inappropriate place to try to brag? I'm not trying to attack you, but you responded to a question aimed at someone elses response; assuming you are not quat, your response makes no sense for any debate here and is pointlessly overriding my topic.
<sigh> I'll address each of your remarks in order wihtout resorting to multiple quotes.

No, I don't have a maxxed pally unless 73/35 is the new max. My pally can't "help" my thief exp/skill in bogs as it's on the same acct but I was able to hunt bogs and get items much smaller than I am now. I do move out into bog until I see a crit and cast dark fast then hide (since much smaller) as thieves have no Easy button. I have given NO argument against your idea; I am pointing out there are other ways to get around it as it is now. I never advertise my thief anywhere and in fact, open tough doors for others in need and announce or PM it on a free non-obvious acct intentionally. Your statement is an attack against me when you throw out the possibility that I am bragging, misdrecting and overriding your topic... I'm letting you know there are ways around it as I don't think Brad would do what amounts to a "shadowless hide" (we can only hope). In fact, there is a bug with liminv that I pointed out to Brad, I might have to refresh his memory. Also I am free to respond to any post and I don't think mine is offtopic. What I was meaning was what Darge mentioned... illusion bracers. Mine are only lvl 7 but I can illusion wall around DL bandits and cast 1 in each direction 10 rounds apart so when one expires, I recast. My beef is that DoT I think inhibits drops unless it kills the 1st round. I had to charge bogwitches for my mandrake (whatever it's called in DL).

I have argued for changes that benefit all, not just the larger players yet if I post, I get slammed as too big to care, etc. Some ideas posted are good but responses don't have to agree 100% nor be replied to with defensiveness. No one has it perfect, suggestions are opinion and players can have opposing points of view. I've had my ideas critiqued and discarded as useless and I have to deal with it.
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RayonMazter
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Re: LimInvis

Post by RayonMazter »

-Also I am free to respond to any post and I don't think mine is offtopic
-Some ideas posted are good but responses don't have to agree 100% nor be replied to with defensiveness.
- My pally can't "help" my thief exp/skill in bogs
This was my basic issue, as the response seemed to just block my request as to me it suggests "No need, there are other ways". While both Quat and your post didn't specifically say it, it still shot the vibe unintentionally maybe, as my semi-complaint/suggestion was not really introduced, but instead I felt you brought it down.
Also realise I was not asking for other methods as i'm aware of how it 'can' be done, but should it really come down to that? The bog is only one example of many open areas and illusion/darkness strategy just doesn't seem right - although being given the illusion as a class train disc might bring a bit of support for the craziness of it all.

Also, I wouldn't dream of exp/skill in bogs, i'm thinking more on the lines of getting certain quest items. Like other classes, I don't think a thief should have to rely on other classes when every other class can deal with bog, and plenty of other open areas in many folds of time faster. Yes it's still possible, but I think it's unnecessary the ways we are limited.
-Veil of Shadows- Self cast. While affected, a thief may hide on any hex, even if the hex is not up against walls or near shadows. 10 round duration, 30 round recast.

-Not exactly what you're suggesting.
Love it. Although not what I suggested, any better alternative is better than none.
Slightly offtopic:
You stated many people haven't agreed with your thief suggestions in the past elsewhere; i'm not one of them. I figure you refer to the single target dozens suggestion you made, which I thought was a good one considering skill gain was removed from the tier [even though riposte apparently gives skill even to afk'ers? possibly wrong, haven't tested.].

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Re: LimInvis

Post by Omni »

Please keep in mind not only the detriment of not having walls to hide in a relatively small number of areas in the game, overall - but also the benefit of being able to hide effectively with sufficient skill.
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Re: LimInvis

Post by Darge »

RayonMazter wrote: You stated many people haven't agreed with your thief suggestions in the past elsewhere; i'm not one of them. I figure you refer to the single target dozens suggestion you made, which I thought was a good one considering skill gain was removed from the tier [even though riposte apparently gives skill even to afk'ers? possibly wrong, haven't tested.].
I catch flak if I don't explicitly say my opinion isn't the same as everyone else, apparently. Just covering the bases.
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I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

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RayonMazter
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Re: LimInvis

Post by RayonMazter »

but also the benefit of being able to hide effectively with sufficient skill.
Can't all classes, and then with the 60 stat cap with agi? Maybe not to the full extent like a thief mainly due to quirks, but they still can. I don't see that as a powerful argument against this, especially Darge's tier suggestion which is of much less significance to unbalancing things.

Open areas aren't > 50%, but open hexes, especially in lairs, are. A couple simple examples of this as an extended issue would be leviathan or mama, or km, amongst several others. Is it truly intended that a high-end thief sit in a spot using venom/decay, rather then making better and full use of backstab? If so, i'll respectfully accept that and realise wasted effort due to where things are headed.

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Re: LimInvis

Post by Tirith »

To clarify.. The thief class recieves many boosts to hide that non thieves do not receive... This is even before you factor in the hide increasing quirk. From personal testing.. a mentalist with skill 30 in thief skill was not able to hide from Kaldor on hex... a thief can do this at about skill 21, 22? something of that sort.

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Re: LimInvis

Post by RayonMazter »

Not sure if this is correct, but thieves recieve somewhere around a 0.6 bonus per skill in thief [1 skill = 1.6 for thief, 1.0 for others?), although that still doesn't remove the fact that others can still steal/hide/backstab and make some use out of it, or that great of an argument even in the case of improving liminvis to the skill of thief so a thief could simply walk around without attacking to get to some places, or npcs.

Pretty much all discs are scaled to skill, why isn't this one? It would even be fair to reduce its usefulness at lower skills so the second a thief recieves the disc, it doesn't allow them to go everywhere liminv currently works at, but later on, to places liminv 'does not' currently work at.

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