Allied Aversion

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Bartosh
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Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:42 pm

Allied Aversion

Post by Bartosh »

I have a mentalist 26/23 who has maxed Allied Aversion quirk 20/20. I maxed this quirk to avoid damage to party members - and to myself - when using Firebreath (with maxed Fire Manipulation 20/20 and Fire Specialty 20/20). However, it does not appear to work. My Firebreath appears to do damage every round to party members who do not have adequate fire protection.

The description of Allied Aversion is "Chance of avoiding friendly creatures with your area of effect disciplines (Requirs Level 15)". However, I was just told today by another player that Allied Aversion does not work for "area of effect disciplines" as stated in the description but only for ment tiers. That does me absolutely no good at level 26. I specifically maxed Allied Aversion because I have had problems with fire damage to myself and to others in the party. I have completely wasted - for now - 200 quirks that I could have used for Thermic Barrier (which might have actually given me some protection).

Note that I would not have spent any quirk points on Allied Aversion if the description had been "Chance of avoiding friendly creatures with your area of effect tiers". Also, if it affects tiers only, why does it have a required level of 15?

If this information is correct, please fix Allied Aversion to work as advertised. Otherwise, it is useless for smaller characters.

I have had discussions with several other players who have also gotten Allied Aversion and found that it did not work.

The damage done by Firebreath or Icebreath may not seem very large to the larger characters among us, but it is definitely large enough to damage many of the characters I party with. In fact, fireball and icestorm damage characters at the levels that party with mentalists using those disciplines. Allied Aversion - to be useful to mentalists at the required level of 15 and a little above that - should affect all area of effect disciplines, as advertised.

Terrel
Posts: 205
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2002 5:36 pm

Re: Allied Aversion

Post by Terrel »

The same applies for ment tiers, Bartosh. There is a chance with both TSS and TFS that the party will indeed be damaged.

The same is not true for MA's who use sweep...they avoid their allies 100%.

Not sure if it's intentional or not, but that's the way it's been since quirks were put in game.

Bartosh
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Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:42 pm

Re: Allied Aversion

Post by Bartosh »

I understand that there is a chance that party members will be damaged, and that is not my complaint. However, I believe that Allied Aversion should reduce that change - and it does not seem to do so.

Eej
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Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2004 5:19 pm

Re: Allied Aversion

Post by Eej »

I agree this needs looking at ,firball and firebreath should be included.
Also while we are on the subject ,Allied Aversion is goofy as hell .
When you make a party with just yourself in my testing i would say its roughly 5% chance of tss or tfs hitting you .
However add a party member and i believe that chance more than doubles add one more and someone dies almost every round in my experience .
Is this to stop people using these tiers to level others ?
I feel this is grossly unfair to mentalists as ma,s can avoid all 100% of the time

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Quaternion
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Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 2:57 pm

Re: Allied Aversion

Post by Quaternion »

There are ways of adjusting to the 90% effectiveness of allied aversion. I find that if you dance and actively try to hit creatures outside a 3x3 (Tempuric storms) area then for the most part you can avoid killing self and party members too often. Also it helps if party members carry some kind of critcure in case of deaths (rb sash, scrolls, twigs, bracers). As for regular fire water walls are often a good option.

In summary there are many things that can be done to adapt for this <100% AA which actually make playing the game more interesting than just spamming flame.

Quaternion

Terrel
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Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2002 5:36 pm

Re: Allied Aversion

Post by Terrel »

Quaternion wrote:There are ways of adjusting to the 90% effectiveness of allied aversion. I find that if you dance and actively try to hit creatures outside a 3x3 (Tempuric storms) area then for the most part you can avoid killing self and party members too often. Also it helps if party members carry some kind of critcure in case of deaths (rb sash, scrolls, twigs, bracers). As for regular fire water walls are often a good option.

In summary there are many things that can be done to adapt for this <100% AA which actually make playing the game more interesting than just spamming flame.

Quaternion
Quaternion,

2 follow ups, in the interest of fraternal debate!

1. The dancing works solo, sure. You nail yourself once in a while, but nbd. However, in a group, it's not really feasible to coordinate dancing, unless the group is out of sight of the mobs...iow, leeching. Correct me if I'm mistaken though.

2. I was about to agree with you on the "more interesting than spamming" part. Upon further reflection, there are plenty of ways to die w/o committing accidental suicide! <G> Firebreath/ball isn't so much of an issue. As long as you're reasonably geared, if you hit yourself, you're not in danger of 1 shotting (or even 2 shotting) yourself. TFS & TSS are horses of a different color. By the time the display updates showing you've nailed yourself (or your party), it's usually too late to do anything about it.

Put another way, it's too risky to use TFS or TSS in a group, even with Allied Aversion. So they don't get used. It's also not practical to solo using those two tiers, because it makes no sense to use them if you're not dealing with several crits. A solo ment can't survive zoos in Mormar*, SDC, or SDC2, so he isn't going to use them there either. In other words..nice tiers, but it's just not practical to use them.

*A ment who is too big for Mormar and well geared can certainly do zoos there, but the only reason he'd be there would be for con pots. (In the past, to powerlevel a group, but with line of sight changes, that's no longer a productive strategy).

Footnote: GDH is a good place to use them, I guess, because water barricades work there. But unless one is hunting for golem rocks, there isn't much point in hunting there.

So in summary...put me on the side of improving the AA quirk for ments. Maybe it shouldn't be 100%, but the current % is too low (high?)

(I've rambled somewhat...if you push back, you'll force me to be more concise! ;>)

Logic2
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Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:53 pm

Re: Allied Aversion

Post by Logic2 »

Why the low lvl requirement if this was only intended for level 65+ tiers ? That makes no sense. It should work for fireball/breath/ect. If it doesn't miss 100% why not make it a % resistance with 20/20 being like 90% resistance to allied damage. so 1000pt fire attack would only do 200 damage, with gear would be ok. If it stays like it is then 20/20 quirks should be 95% or 100% chance to completely miss.

Killgore
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:52 pm

Re: Allied Aversion

Post by Killgore »

I talked to brad and this quirk only works with TSS and TFS. But he said he would look into changing it I took it if enough people felt it needed it.

The problem is ment spent 200 quirks for 20/20 and get maybe 90% avoidance on just 2 spells lvl 65+. Where MA spends just 100 quirks for 10/10 to get 100% avoidance.

Taking that into account i would at least like to see this quirk work on firebreath and if possible the other ment aoe discs. Firebreath can do considerable amount of damage when you get higher skill and get the damage boosts. If brad can look into this I'm sure he would make a lot of ments happy. We all like to firebreath exp grind sometimes and would be nice to not always fry our team mates.

Terrel
Posts: 205
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2002 5:36 pm

Re: Allied Aversion

Post by Terrel »

Kilgore,

I disagree on the proposed fireball/breath solution. Couple reasons:

Both are, for all intents and purposes, useless in Mormar or anywhere more advanced.

I see the heart of the matter being different: ments have 2 nice tiers that they really don't use because the odds of killing their party mates are too high.

I'm not against adding fireball/breath to the list of items impacted by AA, but that doesn't really solve the issue. I'd prefer the solution be to either up the % chance it actually works for a ment or, as Logic2 mentioned, have it dampen the damage a ment does to their own party.

Logic2
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:53 pm

Re: Allied Aversion

Post by Logic2 »

Well, if we had a vote I would vote to include all area disc and a much higher % avoidance. Seems like false advertisement to be able to buy it at a low lvl and only work on lvl 65+ discs.

Bartosh
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Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:42 pm

Re: Allied Aversion

Post by Bartosh »

It seems that there are two separate topics here:
  • The effectiveness of Allied Aversion where it works - 5% or more chance to hit
  • Whether or not Allied Aversion works on aoe disciplines as well as tiers
For those of us with smaller characters, the second topic is the one that matters. With a mentalist 26/23 who has spent 200 quirks to max Allied Aversion, I am currently getting absolutely nothing. This should be fixed as soon as possible. Allied Aversion should have the same effect on all ment aeo disciplines and tiers. There is no valid reason for not doing so.

I can't really address the percentage it works, since it still works zero percent for me. However I would not affect to a 5% chance to hit each party member each round. I usually do not one-shot the party members, but with some zoos I need to use firebreath several times in a row. If I could use firebreath 5 or 6 times in a row with reasonable assurance that it would not hit any party member more than once, then it would again be usable in those parties. I may comment further on the percentages later after it gets fixed to give some benefit, but this issue really doesn't matter now to any of us smaller characters until the basic problem is fixed.

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Quaternion
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Re: Allied Aversion

Post by Quaternion »

In reply to Bartosh,

I really do think that for regular discs sufficient gearing of party members together with quirked fireprot should make hunting safe enough. I think this is just part of the risk rewards equation. That is fire is risky but the pace of exp makes it worth it.

In reply to Terrel,

I agree with some of your points and what I was saying about dancing does kind of apply to the game when exp could be gained outside of the line of sight. A ment can still do exping now but requires more reasources. For example in deep mormar I often use a pally outside of party that provides buffs and carries cc. This works pretty well still.

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Merlin
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Re: Allied Aversion

Post by Merlin »

In reply to all of you regarding this, I would stop any further posts in relation to the Ment vs MA point because:

In the history of Drak people complaining about ANYTHING only ends up with something getting nerfed.

You might think that making ments 100% anti-friendly-fire with this quirk is the reasonable option? Drakkar doesn't work like that, the far more likely scenario would be to make the MA's Quirk function only 80% of the time, thus annoying all of the MA's.

fighting a loosing battle before its even started.
Elessar: karbeck is a sweety

Bartosh
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Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:42 pm

Re: Allied Aversion

Post by Bartosh »

Brad has "added the ability for the OLD school area of effect disciplines FIREBALL/BREATH ICESTORM/BREATH to be affectd by the "aversion" series." See his post dated 03/28/2011 in Drakkar Version Notes.

Thank you Brad for responding. I will be testing out the changes soon.

Bartosh
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Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:42 pm

Re: Allied Aversion

Post by Bartosh »

I have just checked out the Allied Aversion changes. I was in a party of one using Firebreath 50 times in Nork Alt-1. I took damage 5 times out of the 50 - 10 percent - with maxed Allied Aversion (note: also maxed Fire Dancing). In Nork Alt-2 (where Brad has not yet made the change), I take damage nearly every time with the same gear.

This fix appears to work as intended (at least for a party of one). It makes damage rare without eliminating it completely.

Thank you Brad for responding. I am looking forward to seeing the change in Nork Alt-2, Aleria, and Cobrain.

I will be checking it out later with others in a party.

Logic2
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:53 pm

Re: Allied Aversion

Post by Logic2 »

works about the same for me. my results were about 12% with 20/20 allied aversion. Good enough for me.

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