Thief Quirk part 2

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Slan
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Thief Quirk part 2

Post by Slan »

The thief quirk Quick Shadow has me wondering. How many thieves out there sit in a zoo swinging away unhidden like they are a pally or barb to where this quirk is useful? After talking to a few members who share the pleasures of stealthy behaviors, we think this quirk needs some changes. My suggestion would be the increased chance to Backstab when targeted, but at a lesser damage rate, say at the strength of a normal melee swing. This would be a more appropriate quirk that works around the hunting styles of thieves in general. Allowing thieves to finally Backstab enemies with throwing weapons who see through your hide, or enemies who charge/jumpkick would make for a nice change, even if it is only a small percentage of the time.
Last edited by Slan on Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Crusher
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Post by Crusher »

Deflection doesn't really serve a purpose for high end barbs as they are zerked fulltime, but they occasionally aren't zerked, that's where it would serve it's purpose. Just like a thief almost always being hiden.
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Slan
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Post by Slan »

This quirk is a "chance" to become hidden and turn a melee hit into a bs. Ive never, nor do i know any thieves who sit in zoos doing melee. We hide, BS, hide, BS. wash, rinse, and repeat. Even if a BS does 99% damage and the crit is ghosted, i still rehide and BS for the kill shot, I dont run after him and melee swing.

Im posting this because Brad asked people to post their thoughts about the quirks and players thoughts on improvements. If you don't like one of the Barb quirks, make a thread about it and open a discussion about it.

Slan
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Replying to Topic 'Thief Quirk part 2'

Post by Slan »

Another idea someone told me was if you want to stay within the theme of Quick Shadowing, give the thief a chance to re-hide when they become visible on that turn they BSd so they dont lose a round hiding again.

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Post by Gizmak666 »

Originally posted by Slan


This quirk is a "chance" to become hidden and turn a melee hit into a bs. Ive never, nor do i know any thieves who sit in zoos doing melee. We hide, BS, hide, BS. wash, rinse, and repeat. Even if a BS does 99% damage and the crit is ghosted, i still rehide and BS for the kill shot, I dont run after him and melee swing.
There are some situations where standing there duking it out like a fighter has advantages. Graa comes to mind. The first time I did darkness to hide/bs there I had some surprised party members because 'nobody does that'--despite the fact I just did :)

Also, if there is a significant chance for a bs, going fighter style might allow for higher overall damage than hide/bs combo. Keep in mind that for maxxed out thieves, there is rarely any chain bs so half yer rounds yer not doing any damage at all.

I guess it all depends on how you play yer thief.

Oliveloaf__ICE


edit: added my name, duh
Last edited by Gizmak666 on Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Gizmak666 »

Originally posted by Slan


Another idea someone told me was if you want to stay within the theme of Quick Shadowing, give the thief a chance to re-hide when they become visible on that turn they BSd so they dont lose a round hiding again.
There is another thread where this was hashed out someplace around here. I think the general consensus was that unless you were guaranteed a hide after a bs (or had a high percentage to hide), you'd hit your hide macro anyway. Otherwise yer hanging out there vulnerable and wasting a round waiting for a hide that ain't coming. But then, YMMV.

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Slan
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Replying to Topic 'Thief Quirk part 2'

Post by Slan »

Originally posted by Gizmak666


I think the general consensus was that unless you were guaranteed a hide after a bs (or had a high percentage to hide), you'd hit your hide macro anyway. Otherwise yer hanging out there vulnerable and wasting a round waiting for a hide that ain't coming. But then, YMMV.

Oliveloaf__ICE
If there was a message saying something in the lines of "You slip back into the shadows!" would let you know your hidden again, as well as the little icon at the top of the screen that show your hiding status.

Not trying to be a smarty, but what is YMMV?

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Replying to Topic 'Thief Quirk part 2'

Post by Slan »

Originally posted by Gizmak666


Also, if there is a significant chance for a bs, going fighter style might allow for higher overall damage than hide/bs combo. Keep in mind that for maxxed out thieves, there is rarely any chain bs so half yer rounds yer not doing any damage at all.

I guess it all depends on how you play yer thief.

Oliveloaf__ICE

edit: added my name, duh

I dont know, i would think that a thief doing a few K damage every other round consistantly is better then the chance of doing a melee one round and possible doing a free BS the other round...

Im obviously not as large of a thief as you Olive and you have more knowledge of sneekyness. The refrence to Grr, yes i can see your point in a group hunt, but what if you went to Grr solo, would you still stand there toe to toe with him or dark the place and hide/bs? I know what i would do, and yes its more about personal hunting styles.

This quirk has its place and i dont deny that, and maybe it has more of a place at your size and place in the game. I just think something else can be done with it to improve on it or make it more practical.

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Post by Darge »

your milage may vary
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Post by Gizmak666 »

Originally posted by Slan

If there was a message saying something in the lines of "You slip back into the shadows!" would let you know your hidden again, as well as the little icon at the top of the screen that show your hiding status.
Problem is, by the time you saw that message, the round would be over. I stack my hides right after my attacks so I know I'm hiding that next round. If I don't, the way drak works, I'm not hiding if I don't, at least, I'm not hiding until the end of that next round.

As for graa, yes I stand there and fight him toe to toe. Just today, I tried hiding and bs'ing him and he ran off for a full five minutes. Couldn't find him. He came flying back in from the north and I finished him off fighter style.

Anyhow, I agree, there will probably be few uses for this quirk for the standard hide/bs thief. And I'm not picking on you for coming up with ideas. This isn't my first choice quirk to spend my QPs on. However, I can envision, depending on your situation a use for it.


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Post by Longbeard »

You gain bigger and bigger damage potential on BS as you gain any combat adds on gear/stats attack number or thief skill, considering you BS damage is x3 times(for example) more then your charge attack, why would a thief even think of adding anything to regular charge?

Random numbers:
charge: 1K,
BS: 3K

If one factors in excellent hits that in my experience maybe x6 (and more) times your regular charge and also chanse of block / miss, would it not be better to aim for highest damage?

Even if you have to rehide? My thief got to exp level of 25 on IEN, which meant that he had to rehide always after every BS, even after oneshot... Rehiding is a real pain when you know that smaller thief does not have to do it, but it is not the worst, it surely seems better for me then just charging crits with weapon in hand...

Ideal scenario surely is when you are exposed and you charge your target, then you are suddenly able to rehide and deliver BS and remain hidden in effect having a charge trigger hide and BS all on same round, but again, this sounds too new to me. and makes old trusty "hide" button not so important. even increased transmute rate maybe more practical.

But i know, i know this is all to personalize your character and not to railroad any one into same set of quirks.

PS.
I always cast dark in Grr and always used hide / BS there. So i know what you talking about, if party is too large it takes a while to IV every one B4 the hunt though : )

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Longbeard
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Post by Longbeard »

As for graa, yes I stand there and fight him toe to toe. Just today, I tried hiding and bs'ing him and he ran off for a full five minutes. Couldn't find him. He came flying back in from the north and I finished him off fighter style.
Oliveloaf__ICE
And again, i know what you mean!

It makes it impossible when you arrive into an area and start clicking boxes from hide to BS and get message "you don't see that character" because they all move around as if you never came around and pop off screen...

Lair crits with large areas to roam are almost impossible to wait for / ambush because they run away for long, long time....

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Post by Braindead »

I've got a question about this one. If you're hidden and charging, does it work and occasionally give you backstab damage? Not an always type of hunting, but I could see that being useful for it as well.

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Post by Virag »

I agree completely with the sentiment that the 'quick shadow' quirk has little merit. Its a neat idea, don't get me wrong, but I can't see myself ever using it. The only way I could envision myself using it would be if it activated when you are already hidden, and when it does trigger you backstab instead of charge and remain hidden. Its possible that it is already coded this way--has anyone put a point in it yet?

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Post by Gizmak666 »

No, I haven't purchased any quirk powers yet, but I just thought of another situation where this might come in handy:

When yer backstabbing along, and some fool in yer party decides to stun the crit who just happens to have targeted you leaving you with nothing better to do for three (or more) rounds than contemplate the charge macro.

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Slan
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Post by Slan »

Which goes back to my original post idea.

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Post by Migam »

My thief melees hidden in ud3. I gain much more thief skill doing this since ud3 has great gain, I get blocked less attacking/charging vs. backstabbing, I get to drain the thief skill by killing certain ud3 crits in 2 to 4 rounds (X times drains of thief gains, 1 weap gain for ks) and it doesn't matter if they can see through my hide. My thief has no GH thus no quirks yet but if it helps get backstab damage while seen, I can live with draining less and killing faster :)
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Longbeard
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Post by Longbeard »

Migam. This was posted about when skilling system changed, people were charging crits for half a day...

If you are able to charge crits in UD3, you can just go and BS in UD2 and gain exp and 2 skills faster in easier area. True solution though is to party witha few buds in UD3 and pay up your thief skill, then if you get GH or Gold plan skilling bonus, then your skilling becomes a very fast experience.

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Post by dodge »

i ask myself the q: has anyone actually tried that quirk out? or why did noone answer braindeads/virags q?
i was curious about this quirk. thought it would be a nice feat to have if it also worked when you are hidden already, as it makes soloing lairs faster or hunting dangerous areas more secure.
findin no info on that i sacrificed 10 qp to find out. well bad luck, for me it only worked when visible. that taken into account i cant see any use of this quirk. even worse its more of a nuisance than a feat.
when would i want to be visible? when i wanna keep a zoo together or when i wanna have other pcs see me. now and then this quirk would hide you and you have to reveal afterwards.
oliveloaf, you pointed out about fighting graa being visible will make him stay. would this quirk be helpful? i guess you dont wanna jump into shadow randomly if you go for this tactic.
another idea about using this quirk was improving the damage of the razor tier, which is a number of "normal" attacks as i hear. with this quirk you might get a chance for a bs on all of those attacks. sounds nice, but then again you need to be revealed :-P
i cant help it, i can only regard this quirk as useless or worse.
it also seems quite illogical to me that you can only "find a critical point" (thats about the message you get when quick shadow kicks in), when your visible.
imo to give this quirk some usefulness it should also work while the thief is hiding. best would be if it just gave a chance of bs in melee with hide being no matter and also no annoying jumping into shadow if the quirk kicks in.

happy quirking

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Migam
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Post by Migam »

How long did you test it both hidden and visible? I can only assume that it happened often enough that you were able to notice it stop right away while hidden (though 1/20 isn't much). Does it work while liminv'ed?

Just curious as I thought about putting qps there. I too assumed I "might" be able to use it while attacking or charging hidden. The usefulness for me was to kill those annoying blinking crits like quaz. Close enough to see them, they see me, far enough away to hide from them, I can't see them. So it's charge for lesser damage output so far until skill gets higher.

If Brad does eventually add more quirks, I wonder if he will remove some quirks or just extend menu? If dropping some of these crappy ones, I hope he gives back the qps used.
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Nickstar
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Post by Nickstar »

The quirke does work while hidden also.

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dodge
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Post by dodge »

thx for the correction nickstar
my second tests on this quirk confirmed your statement
tested for 1 hour visible 1 hour hidden in the first place
maybe got bad luck
got 1 bs while charging hidden for 30 mins this time
did some 200 charges

would be nice to know how big the chance of getting a bs was
if someone already did tests on that pls share your wisdom

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Post by Gizmak666 »

Overall I find this quirk far from crappy. It does have its issues... well issue, the unexpected hiding. I suggest that perhaps smaller thieves won't see the utility. Yes, it can be a nuisance with the sudden hiding, however, if you are out in the open you are only hidden for one round, if that. I'm surprised at the number of otherwise out in the open hexes in this game that allow you to hide as long as you don't do anything :)

I've only got two pips in it and haven't really tested so I can't say for sure what the percentages are. It's not terribly often just charging or attacking. I can say this: the quirk changes a normal attack into a backstab. A Thrown attack is a normal attack. This means that all your razorblades and dozens attacks have the potential to do backstab damage. It doesn't happen everytime but most times a razorblade attack hides me and dozens almost always does. I usually hit my unhide macro after a such attacks just because.

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Darge
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Post by Darge »

Here's one for you OL, can proximity trigger on a quick shadow bs?
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I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

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Post by Gizmak666 »

I haven't seen it happen. I've got prox maxed and only 2 pips in qs. Of course, I haven't gone back to decipher all the (potentially) hundreds of dozens attacks to check, but still I doubt it.

<speculation> I suspect that a qs backstab is still fundamentally a 'normal' attack where in you simply do a bunch more damage and end up hidden. Otherwise it would never work on a crit that has you targeted. Additionally, the backstab icon doesn't become highlighted like when you change attacks.</speculation>

Quickshadow is on my list of quirks to build up, just not near the top.

Oliveloaf__ICE

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