Newbie Ramblings

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Tristram
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Newbie Ramblings

Post by Tristram »

For someone who averages all of one comment a week in DZ chat area, I was once told that I comment just to read my own typing. *sigh* Well, that's exactly what this is!

I keep a notepad by my computer, and I keep arcane notes for my own amusement. Today I walked into the SF for the twelth straight time and greeted everyone there (not individually) and received no reply at all! Every once in a while I get a 'hiya Trist' in return. Upon looking at that crit they are generally dressed in the same rags I am...yellow robe and rak, maybe a missing slot or two where gear has yet to be obtained. A NEWBIE!! A kind person with manners. The rest I can only assume couldn't bother because it's obvious that I can't better their situation. How many of you sit in SF and when someone small enters and greets the crowd, waits to see if a big crit (especially a tagged crit) responds? If the big crit will not respond how will that bode for you if you do? After all this is a very small community and acceptance is important if you want to progress in the game! What I am seeing is a caste of snobs. It seems that everyone DOES need some one to look down on, irregardless of where they are now.

* side bar * Mihey is one of the few exceptions that I've had the pleasure to meet. Mihey is one of the most newbie friendly people that I've met so far in my travels in Nork. Maybe he knows the value of new blood to a game, or maybe Mihey is just an outstandingly kind person. If they hold elections for that deputy sysop position, Mihey, you have my vote.

I am recently maxed and now have a paid account. I'm not sure if that releaves me of my newbie status or not. I still feel the same, but I am glad to get out of that acid cave. What I am getting at is that in my limited experience with Drakkar, I have not witnessed all the newbie atrocities that I keep hearing about, even though it's the newbie areas where I constantly find myself. Well, there is one time, in the acid cave. I had just twigged in and the current newbie 'owner' gave me a good cursing and demanded my immediate departure, which I silently obeyed. After all, maxing is a trying time and I understood the frustration of competition. Also, I have witnessed juvenile use of the DZ chat. This may be the single most legitimate issue with anti n00bism that I have witnessed; but it does not compare to the verbal onslaught I witness almost daily, or the outright arrogance I experience upon entering a public place. Even Brad has determined that newbs need a little more persecution and restricted what they can have. I don't recall a new player ever bothering me while hunting, but I have been invaded and almost killed by larger, tagged crits while hunting. What are they doing in newbie areas anyway?

I was talking to a player the other day. I could tell this person was a little up tight with a mixture of elation and trepidation. He had applied to a guild for membership, but was told they wanted players who knew more about the game, but that they would hold on to his application. I know, I know, we want every one to be COB ready, but isn't Nork fun anymore? Isn't doing the Liches, or vamps, or Mama still fun? With the risk of sounding overly paternal, I know I enjoy the enthusiam of my children and their friends when they experience something new. Doesn't new members bring a large dose of enthusiam to the guild? Isn't that a good thing? Are you just wanting to add to your numbers to make getting that .04% skill easier? I would think adding new life would be a very good investment even if it meant some back tracking. But, that's just me. Grunting for skill is too much like work to me. I don't play games to work. I play for fun. If it's not fun, I'll find something else that is!

This was supposed to be a piece on newbie bashing, but it was just a rambling. But I did make that clear at the beginning didn't I? So, back to the newbie trashing, or JIHAD bashing ( what ever they are, never seen one ), or whatever bashing your level of snobdom dictates. Have fun! After all, it's just a game.

*WARNING If you are responding with a flame, make sure it contains some degree of wit, lest you come across as very foolish. I have to value your opinion for it to hurt, and at this point in time, there is only a few of you that can accomplish this, and it probably isn't you !!!!!

Best Regards

Tristram
Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal....Henry Ford

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Crusher
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Post by Crusher »

Who are you?
You'll never win... PLEAD INSANITY!

Tristram
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Post by Tristram »

I see you like to read your own typing too. Got another post in. Soon you'll have 1000. Very Nice :)
Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal....Henry Ford

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Post by Crusher »

Nah, I decided to make a joke of your last comment. No conflicts intended. :)
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Post by Braindead »

Well, Tristram, from personal experience, my major problem with new players is that they want a lot. Not to learn the game, but to grow as fast as possible. I don't think it's always bad to want to grow your character, but they want top-end gear for a level 10/8 crit. For example, trying to help someone new the other day, he was very grateful. But then he told some friends that he knows someone big, and they started PMing me begging to get them all sorts of gear. When I tell them they should grow their crit or get a party to help them kill it, all I get is "Come on! Aren't you going to do it?!" That's kind of a turn off. I know it requires effort of larger or more knowledgable players to help new ones learn the game and better etiquette, but there are frequently ungrateful newbs running around begging until they get what they want. An intolerance by the current population for the new *generally* rude generation...

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Mihey
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Post by Mihey »

*blushes*

Tristram, I am honoured you consider me that way, but I do not see myself as a sysop. I just love to help good natured players, play with my friends and rant from time to time...

I agree with your views on the newbie community; I know there are many players that do not come to DZ, forums and such and many are generally more mature than most veterans I know... Especially you. You put most of the community to a shame. ;)

But alas, there has been an influx of vocal immature newbies (I blame Runescape and such). Due to actions of few, entire newbie community has to suffer...

But the blame really goes on us, the "veteran" community. We have turned the way we should not have... We have forgotten the good old ways, where we were raising newbies, forming friendships with them and helping them get gear rather than giving it to them. Most of the players were good-natured back then; if you met somebody in game, you greeted them.

Nowadays, I see crits being rushed (power leveled/skilled, taking shortcuts to everything)... I see developed players just handing gear to newcomers and departing with "have fun" and little advice. I do not mind handing gear and rushing baby crits of experienced players, but newcomers players themselves have to learn the game through their own eyes and actions. Nothing matches the first griffon hunt at level 10-12 in rags; it is the best experience for lair hunts. Mistakes are very painful, but the experience is well rewarding. And it is fun, too.

We should be GUIDING inexperienced players, not TAKING them where they want to be.

But then again, I was a "greenhorn" myself back then, I do not know what it was like in upper levels. I have seen complaints about griefing, etc... And I still see the same complaints. Players clash in skilling areas, looters abound before and after new rules... Griefing is always here.

If we grow cold-hearted, then we will lose feelings for fellow players... and without feelings, it is easier to get into arguments. But many people lately ignore attempts to forge relations...

What can we do? You know what I am doing. I still am the good ol' school, though not as active as I used to be. But I am losing ties with the part of the community I used to be in...

What we need is for that part of the community to take an initiative itself.

We need a good guild that would not ward inexperienced players off by setting a size restriction and thus forcing them to be rushed towards the size without actually exploring the game... A guild that would welcome all players and train them, both in game knowledge and behaviour. A guild that would do all hunts the good ol' fashioned style. A guild that would hunt for fun and not to gain size/gear. A guild that would be based on nork and aleria; a guild that would welcome free players and inspire them to play the game further.

I have lost my sight on such guilds; maybe there is no such good newbie guild or I would have heard of it myself... Maybe you could take an initiative, Tristram? ;)
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Mihey
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Post by Mihey »

Braindead, that would be the dreaded Runescape/stuff populace... Players from other games with little moral values. Their expectations are different than ones we had when we started playing Drakkar. They want to get big and badass; we wanted to explore and have fun.

But not all are like that. Look at Tristram, for example.

Also, it is our fault for spoiling new players, by giving them what they want and what we think they would want, rushing them to get bigger and then wander off without a word of wisdom. No wonder they get addicted and want more...
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Yeti
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Post by Yeti »

as far as wanting to add new members to guilds, yes its always a good feeling to help a smaller guild member accomplish something, but there comes a point where it is simply a burden to have guild members that much smaller than you. At level 51 you no longer gain experience in nork or cob, and thus the chances of you ever hunting there outside of maybe the occasional lair are somewhere in the range of -5% - 0%. At that point, having a member who is only level 18 when the rest of your guild is in the 40-50+ range, means that level 18 member will not be able to hunt with the rest of the guild other than lairs for the next 30+ levels, assuming the rest of the guild doesnt grow while the smaller member does.

-Yeti
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Tristram
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Post by Tristram »

Thanks for the reply, Braindead, but you speak of newbies stereotypically. We are not all the same. I've never asked you for anything. Haven't asked anybody for anything. I am level 14, still wear yeti because its all I can kill. To see me you would think I was a young barb....actually I am a little pally. But you appear to lump us all together as if we are of one mind. Will you call me a begger if I ask you to help me get full plate when I reach 15? When is it OK to ask?
Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal....Henry Ford

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Post by Crusher »

I see large level chars as more "picky" about how people ask them for stuff. Someone that can easily solo a lair is asked to help on that lair. The high level doesn't respond or tells the low level to leave them alone. I remember when it took just about 5 sticks to kill a Mama RD. Now it's a regular solo for some people.
If you'd ask me to help get something. I'd prolly say gimme a few mins. Then 5 mins later ask you to come pick up the egg from levi, but that's just me. :)
I think the appropriate time to get an item is when you can efficiently help on the hunt. Most level requirements are based on that now.
Last edited by Crusher on Wed Oct 27, 2004 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mihey
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Post by Mihey »

Crusher, that is what we are trying to avoid for inexperienced players. Dont you think it would be better if Tristram could organize a levi hunt with small and medicore sticks, healers and mentalists for respirate... It would be a long hunt; but what is better than having fun and making friends with anyone on the hunt?

A single primal on the hunt would ruin it into a "solo", however; Tristram would never be proud of the plate, then.

Dont you remember those good ol' levi hunts, that lasted 30+ min and even more than one hour? How we had fun back then?

And you'd just give an egg to him and run back to NL ;)

What does it take for a levi hunt, again...? Many Level 15+ sticks (13+ if maxxed), a fair skill with weapon (to be actually able to hit it... what was it again? 12-14?), a few healers and ments to keep the sticks from drowning. It is a large but fun hunt at low size. :)
Last edited by Mihey on Wed Oct 27, 2004 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tristram
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Post by Tristram »

Yeti, that is a very valid point, and I well understand that a little player has no place with such a HUGE level guild such a JIHAD. Nothing to be gained for either party. I was really aiming the comment to guilds where members are primarily in the 20's and might could soften their requirements to a slightly lower level than 18. Maybe you are right. Maybe you reach a point where Nork is no challenge sooner than I thought. It just that at level 14 I realize I haven't done anything yet. Surely I can't master it in the next few levels?
Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal....Henry Ford

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Mihey
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Post by Mihey »

That is why I see the need for an open good sub-20 level guild... But how many of those are out there? Most of them require level 13 and max...
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Tristram
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Post by Tristram »

Mihey, I may be mistaken, but I believe I read that the guild making part of the game is broken. If this is true it would explain the absense of smaller guilds. Over time all guilds will grow in level (and level requirements) putting all newer players in the scenerio that Yeti described. I sure hope I am wrong about this.
Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal....Henry Ford

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Mihey
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Post by Mihey »

Ah, that still has not been reenabled? Ah, I'm losing the track as always...

I would guess you would have to contact a sysop about guild creation. I believe the creation is done manually...
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Poldarn
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Post by Poldarn »

Okay, tristram, this is how i see it. I am a 57/30 barb. i am always very very busy, be it coining to max, or hunting with my guild, in areas where you can't access, im busy. however, im not one to reject the help of a newb, assuming i believe he is appropriately leveled for the gear. If you asked me to help on levi, and you said "hi! im a level 15 paladin, and im having a little trouble getting a hunt up, if you'd care to help with the Leviathan for my fullplate which i can now wear, i would be grateful" i would say "aw sure man, i miss polite people like you" and i'd go to the lair, and if need be, duo it with you, or if you couldnt handle it, bring my own party for you. However, you've never spoken to me... not that you need to. Most noobs tho, get an instant ignore from me, because of lines such as "can you kill me a chipper" after asking my level. people don't even say "Hello!" anymore. just "what level are you?". THAT is what really pisses me off. almost 95% of the time when i ask for someones help on a lair, i begin with "Hiya xxxx how are ya goin?" This has just turned into a rant, but man, as long as you got manners, and i ain't REALLY busy, you are welcome to my help. i will make the mistake of advertising my DZ here, (badinferno) but be warned arrogant rude "noobs"... pm me without manners and you're ignored like the rest of them.

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Doro
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Post by Doro »

Following on . .

I too would like it known that Doro (healer) and Drongo (barb) are both available for polite party lair hunts, or come to that any old party hunt with a fair amount of players.

Multi player hunts of 4 or more (especially when exploring) are great fun, if you require advice or just my attandance as a confidence booster please PM me when I'm online.

There comes a time when folk just get bored of the same old grunting, this is one of mine.

Now an eloquent post has come along and cheered me up no end - thanks Tris.
ho

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Post by Dragonslayer »

I'm probably guilty of not answering greetings, but that's becaise i'm usualy afk in sf ;)
Now i don't really class as big, but i will usualy help on a hunt when someone asks me "can you help me with this and this lair, i already got a healer." etc., but i'll play afk when someone asks "Can you get me a chip/uzi/whatever?" Ofcourse since i got a reggie, i can solo chip.

Buut my MA and ment are often open for a fun hunt in aleria or nork ;)
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Morgar
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Post by Morgar »

As the movie says, "Learn balance Daniel-san!".

Thats what those of us larger, non-NL players have had to do.

When I first got massteleport, I was asked to take parties of people to lairs all the time. People I didn't even know were asking me to power experience them in aleria, and if I had a coin for everytime someone slipped me a +4 hoping I wouldn't notice and take it to +5 for free (and losing critical character stats in the process) I'd be rich. It wasn't long before I learned I was being taken advantage of. I was off helping this party go to uther, or to slith, or any other of a dozen lairs and rarely spending the time needed to build up my own character.

The straw that broke the camel's back for me was the pm based fight I got into. I was 2% away from making a skill and someone pm'd me asking if I were available to mt a party to uther. When I told them I wasn't available, they became verbally abusive. They just couldn't understand why I wouldn't come back from cob to mt their party. MT is a stressful disc. Too much of it can age a crit just as if I spent my time elancing spears in pillars. So excuse me if I decide that someone wanting to buy one ep pot isn't worth the MT to the ep pot seller. Want to buy 10 pots? I'll happily mt you, but one pot isn't worth the trip.

As I said earlier, its about balance. The balance of actively working to improve my own character in an area most newbies cannot reach versus being available to help newbies. Its about being able to hunt without being disturbed because that newbie you helped last week has taken the advice you gave them and thrown it out the window by visiting half the lairs in nork and now you're getting requests for a DP recovery for lairs you wouldn't go into yourself without a supporting party.

Am I available to help on lair hunts? Yes, IF YOU CAN WEAR THE ITEM YOUR TRYING TO OBTAIN. If you've reached the point where you can wear fullplate, or trade in uther's sword for a saber, or use a chipper, and have the needed sticks and healers for your party I'll be happy to help if I'm not already busy. But don't ask to do slith at level 10, chipper at level 14.

Some guilds have level requirements, a few, like MoY, do not. But that doesn't mean every player with a tag is some sort of drak god. Having a tag doesn't convey any special abilities or denote any special about that player other than being part of a unique group of people. Yes I too think that guild level requirements are snobbish, but they do serve a purpose. Most guilds level requirements are at least cob minimums. The guilds do this because they do want to go through the trouble and time to accept a new member, arranging hunts for that member and suddenly find that member gone. Since you have to pay to enter cob, a cob capable player is more prone to be a long term player. People on free accounts come and go, some lasting only a few days, or weeks or months. But sooner or later they're gone. Nork can only take a player so far before it becomes old and boring, chasing the free player away.

I do not condone the level requirements of the guilds, my guild (MoY) has none, but I can understand why the other guilds have put them in place and see there is a value to them even if they do make the guild appear snobbish or elitist.

This isn't really about noobie bashing. The new gear requirements make it harder for bigger players to help noobies. The skill system makes it nearly impossible for bigger players to hunt with a noobie without nerfing their skill gain and experience gain. I personally applaud the new gear requirements. People were getting top flight gear without experiencing the hunt. They had no concept of the value of that gear, nor what was entailed to get it. With the gear requirements, people now earn what they get and will appreciate it more. As a larger player I can offer a little help when it comes to hunting, I can offer information about the game. But what I can't do is provide you with the game served up on a silver platter.

And Tristram, while this may not apply to you, a lot of the behavior in this post does apply to many of the noobs that are currently leveling up around you.
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Ztinktoof
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Post by Ztinktoof »

Timing is everything. There are many large players who will greet and help "n00Bz", but you got to be on when they are on, monitoring the lobby and looking for a little low-key action with one of their smaller slots.

Say hello in SF and lobby 0, but do not be offended if no one responds. The reasons are many and varied. It takes time and timing to build a rep and find people available.

I frequently use a "hider" account to offer help with Nork hunts because it is more fun to take on lairs with a smaller character and it stops people from bugging me to solo things for them. I know several other people who do the same thing.

Help is there. You just cannot always get it at the moment you want it. >grin<
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Post by Braindead »

Tristram, I totally agree, it is stereotyping. And the reason I do it is because *most* new players do fall into that stereotype. I don't know you, that's right. So I don't want to judge you. I try not to be completely cold from new players.
Your example, helping with the FP: It all depends how you ask. "Can you get me FP? Go kill it please"...ask it like that and I'll give you a big "Hell no!" and put you on ignore. If you say "Would you please come help on a levi hunt?" and I'm not in the middle of a hunt already, then I'd gladly help you. Most new players won't ask like this, but if they do, at least in my eyes, they look like a player who really wants to learn the game and experience it, not just powerlevel. Powerleveling isn't always bad, shortens some of the long tedious solo exping-hours.
Basically, it's all about how you ask, and the timing. If new players are respectable and ask when someone isn't busy, I think a good deal of bigger players will try to help out, at least in their own way. The key is politeness and patience. If you've got that, I'd be very happy to help you with anything.

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Post by Yeti »

aye, as many other people have pointed out, its all about timing and how you ask

if some person i dont know pms me with "what level are you" or "can you kill xxx" they are summarily ignored

if they pm me with "hi im level 15 and i am trying to organize a levi hunt, would you be willing to help" then im ALOT more inclined to help, and at the very least they will be told i am busy and would help them at a later time, as opposed to the first person who will be told god hates them and they should go away.

and yes, if its a hunt my little thief can go on, i will bring him instead. hunts are no fun when you have someone level 50+ going and beating it up for you, having a group of people siminarly leveled to you serves a few different purposes:

1) you meet people who are currently near your level, and who will likely grow at around the same rate you do, thus they will be available to help on more hunts in the future.

2) you get to experience the hunt as it as supposed to happen, and you may even die or lose some hp, but you will respect that piece of gear alot more

-Yeti
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If ignorance is bliss, why aren’t more people happy?
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Post by Tristram »

I started this thread not because I've been abused or bullied; in fact quite the opposite is true. I'm complaining of the stark apathy towards new players. Drakkar has an aura of disdain that just reeks, and I find it uncomfortable.

I like RPGs very much. If I'm playing a boxed PC game that only takes a week or two to finish, what class I chose to play, or which weapon I decide to use makes little difference. I can always make better decisions next time through. KoD is very long term. Early decisions have long lasting consequences. I studied the forums and fan sites long before I actually created a crit and began playing. I got to know ( in a way ) many of you from your posts in the forum, from your web sites, even from the DZ chat. You may be surprised what an observant person can learn just by watching. Ztinktoof's exquisite treatise on paladins was my guide for my first crit. I know I'll have very good chance of developing a successful character by using the knowledge that he so generously imparted. If you have been observant, then you may have deduced that I am a calculating person. I like to make informed decisions, especially when I am aware of long term or permenant consequences. Several of you that have responded to this thread have been previously PM'd by me in an effort to gain some kind of knowledge to enhance my game playing. In each case I found you to be very polite and generous. In fact, this is my preferred method of fact finding. If I ask questions on DZ, the answers tend to be trite, and for the calculating person, that is just not good enough. For example, the other day I asked what is the best thief weapon. Now I know this is personal preference, but please bear with me. I was hoping for responses like ( remember I'm just making this up, I don't know the answer to the question that I just posed )......well, the LS is a great weapon early on because it's the most powerful weapon that you can successfully hide with early on; but, if you can stand some early set backs, the GS will serve you better later in the game. Needless to say, that is far from the type of response I received. Yeti suggested a hally (with a grin). I knew I was the butt of some inside joke, but it didn't help me with my decision. No offense intended, Yeti, I know you have a playfull nature, it's part of your charm. I'll bet if I PMd Yeti and asked the same question, the reply would be more satisfying. That's why I prefer that one on one method. It never dawned on me that others were using that same method to abuse you, especially on the scale that is it obviously is. It makes me appreciate even more the kind responses that I've been given on my inquiries.

Has a guild council ever been proposed? I'll bet if people knew that information about them, both good and bad, was being disseminated between all of the guilds, and that it could have lasting consequeces to their chances of acceptance, it might be a bit of a deterrent.

Opps, this was an unplanned ramble. My apologies.
Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal....Henry Ford

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Frozboz
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Replying to Topic 'Newbie Ramblings'

Post by Frozboz »

For example, the other day I asked what is the best thief weapon. Now I know this is personal preference, but please bear with me. I was hoping for responses like ( remember I'm just making this up, I don't know the answer to the question that I just posed )......well, the LS is a great weapon early on because it's the most powerful weapon that you can successfully hide with early on; but, if you can stand some early set backs, the GS will serve you better later in the game. Needless to say, that is far from the type of response I received. Yeti suggested a hally (with a grin). I knew I was the butt of some inside joke, but it didn't help me with my decision.
You may be a "calculating person", but you sure have a long way to go in common sense. I've sat here and read these novels you've posted in this thread, and I must say I can't sit on the sidelines much longer - since it no longer lies within the realm of "newbie" versus "veteran". Your question posed in DZ chat was fair. Oh yeah, I was there, I read the whole thing. The answers given you were MORE than fair. In fact, I wasn't surprised in the least when Yeti followed up his flippant "hally" remark with a detailed explaination with why dagger was the best. But oh, you failed to mention that, you'd much rather run here and basically smear the name of a good solid member of the drakkar community.

So do us a favor, spare us the melodrama. This stopped being an issue of how the community treats newbies the minute you left out crucial details of your little story.

Tristram
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:40 pm

Replying to Topic 'Newbie Ramblings'

Post by Tristram »

if there was a discussion on daggers, I'm sorry I missed it. I must have departed a little too soon. I would have liked to have read it.

The purpose of my example was to offer a simplified example of the varying quality of information gathered from two available sources. One being general, the other being private. I know Yeti's comment was a joke. Mentioning it was in no way a slam on Yeti. If it is, I sincerely apologize, but I don't see the slam.

Actually, Yeti is a source that I do pay attention to. That's why the remark stuck with me. My recollection of 'the event' was there were multiple conversations going on simultaneously and my screen was filling up fast. I would see the word 'dagger', then other conversation; other weapons were mention with no reasons, then I saw Yeti's hally remark and I knew I was not going to get a serious answer at that time. No sweat! I'll roll my thief and try again later. So I left!
Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal....Henry Ford

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