NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

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Acaciam
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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Acaciam » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:38 pm

Cobra wrote:my barb
Exactly.

FYI: You aren't putting the current game into perspective, you're trying to revive the old game's perspective. It's not 1990 anymore.
Should I level to 50 in KM5 or Cob because others did, when those were the only options at the time?

Sure it's doable, but it takes forever, and I don't think anyone but the "old timers" care about who did it the hard way, or how long it took them because they envy someone who was able to do it in a fraction of the time.

The point is there is a massive dungeon geared toward doing nothing but exp'ing and it is now inaccessible for the bulkiest portion of doing nothing but exp'ing (lvls 25-50). What's the point?

Brad: It's still not solo'able by non barb classes, even the lower levels, and seriously, at 50 who's doing levels 1-15 anyway? Mormar is definitely 50+ in terms of difficulty, but you could kill two birds with one stone by taking the mostly unused lower levels and making a solo area to grind out 30-50. It's mostly the auto hit causing problems (at least for me). I'm not so much concerned with how long it takes to kill something, but I'd like to be able to kill a more than 2-3 crits before refilling IH. Yeah, the zoos I refer to aren't 20+ crits. Anything more than 1 is a zoo with the multi-round auto-hit. I'd like to see it feel more like n1-n10 with exp adjusted accordingly. I like Quat's idea of adding psi, but don't turn it into a Keep situation.

If you could fix the "non-existent" auto-hit, it'd probably be fine how it is, but if that's going to remain, then mob health (and xp per mob) needs to be lowered to where I can kill them before they kill me.

Look back at when you designed the Nork dungeons, everyone loves the "feel." It was difficult, but doable and just short of painfully slow. Mormar is mass chaos. It's insanely quick, but the risks are just overcome with bait and PWH (unless you're a barb). Again, great when there were 200 DIFFERENT people online to group with. If you're concerned with leeching and power leveling, then give us an alternative option. Restricting us to Cob isn't a solution because you're best xp is another barb only zone. It also stretches out the grind to the point of people burning out.

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Acaciam » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:52 pm

Terrel wrote: I think that works ok for some classes, Cobra, but not for many. They lack either the offensive punch to kill a single mob in less than 30 minutes (ok..I may be exaggerating), or they lack the heals that a barb gets from leech. A solo MA will get torn up; a solo healer simply can't kill anything there in a reasonable period of time.

Either way, it can be done, but it isn't much fun that way. I'd hazard a guess and say that given the choice of 1 crit that takes 10 minutes to kill and gives 10m exp, and 60 crits that take 10 seconds to kill each but give 100k exp, most folks would go with the latter.

I still think Mormar (and GDH, SDC) is ideally a group dungeon, and solo dungeons should be developed as a counterpart.
100% accurate.
I only disagree with the last line because of the amount of coding required and that it would need to have an extensive range of difficulty to deal with things that happen btw levels 30-50 like acquiring lors, tiers, skill 30, etc. Although, if this were done, you could combine new area with factioning to fix another problem.

The quick and easy approach is to split Mormar at level 15, do away with factioning (at least at level 30, there should be no need), and I'd even encourage making it 0 skill gain to offset the increased kills because there are lovely areas to skill now. It doesn't have to be an uber xp area, or doable in a week, or a month, it just needs to be doable without wanting to log off and do something else.

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Quaternion » Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:02 am

One of the main reasons why soloing as a ment is impractical is due to ep limitations. Fixing the deplete bug could help with this.

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Cobra » Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:18 am

My post was in reply to a MA who said he couldn't solo in zoos. I gave him the option of doing m16 solo. I was able to do it on my MA while growing him when guildies weren't on for grouping.

I have also stated my opinion many times on the imbalances of NL for certain classes. I know that barbs can solo easy, and other classes can't. I was hoping that we were all already aware of that. I'm not even going to get started on the area that was designed to be solo friendly already(SDC.)

Back to my point. A MA on m16 can easily solo one mob at a time without too much trouble. I started doing m16 solo on my MA at 40/30.

Cobra

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Martialarts » Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:15 pm

Cobra wrote:My post was in reply to a MA who said he couldn't solo in zoos. I gave him the option of doing m16 solo. I was able to do it on my MA while growing him when guildies weren't on for grouping.

I have also stated my opinion many times on the imbalances of NL for certain classes. I know that barbs can solo easy, and other classes can't. I was hoping that we were all already aware of that. I'm not even going to get started on the area that was designed to be solo friendly already(SDC.)

Back to my point. A MA on m16 can easily solo one mob at a time without too much trouble. I started doing m16 solo on my MA at 40/30.

Cobra

I think your wrong matter fact I know you are. At 60 I had fits on m12 so who is pulling my finger.

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Merlin » Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:46 pm

Quaternion wrote:One of the main reasons why soloing as a ment is impractical is due to ep limitations. Fixing the deplete bug could help with this.

I soloed to level 60/34 on a ment in nork gear(none of the super pink and ep regen stuff we have now) in mormar-4/forge before the changes to make it easier, mormar critters had armorstrike then aswell.

died alot, but did it, back then deplete only took me to 990 aswell.

Oh yeah and I only had 2 teirs! haha


I think the main problem with mormar is its just 25 levels of the same thing, there is nothing different.
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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Quaternion » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:31 pm

I soloed to level 60/34 on a ment in nork gear(none of the super pink and ep regen stuff we have now) in mormar-4/forge before the changes to make it easier, mormar critters had armorstrike then aswell.
Many people are saying such things, namely "I had it hard i used skill and dedication". This may well be true and most who reply to these threads are people who have been willing to do this and enjoyed it. But now look at the reality of Drakkar with this small player base. People do not in general want to grind repetitively one crit at a time hours on end when they could go off to another game and get a more varied experience. I'm trying to point out there should be some practicalities, making stuff harder, slowing growth without providing variety is harming the player retention.

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Martialarts » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:59 pm

Seems to me the player bas has vanished am i wrong? Most i know leave and come back they get burnt out. But this last time was many angry at the direction.. Just a thought,

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Acaciam » Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:48 pm

@Cobra and Merlin

The original point of this thread (I think) is that the level 50 cap on Mormar is too high.
While trying to be critics of the ideas suggested to improve Mormar, you've only both confirmed that however hard it may have been at the time (and the mad skillz you both have), you at least had to opportunity to do Mormar before level 50. New players do not.

I play this game because it's fun and what's not fun is making the entire middle portion of growing a character a slow and painful grind. Leeching isn't fun, but it allows you to be able to have fun again when you can get out of the 30-50 slump.

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Merlin » Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:19 pm

Acaciam wrote:@Cobra and Merlin

The original point of this thread (I think) is that the level 50 cap on Mormar is too high.
While trying to be critics of the ideas suggested to improve Mormar, you've only both confirmed that however hard it may have been at the time (and the mad skillz you both have), you at least had to opportunity to do Mormar before level 50. New players do not.

I play this game because it's fun and what's not fun is making the entire middle portion of growing a character a slow and painful grind. Leeching isn't fun, but it allows you to be able to have fun again when you can get out of the 30-50 slump.
Erm you'll find that we didn't have the opertunity to do mormar before level 50 because NL wasn't invented then.

On alt crits yes but thats not in question, sure we blasted our alts up through the levels(whilst wearing gear from our mains which would have not been possible to attain pre 70 for most of it) and I'm all for that, which is why I suggested a pass type seller to allow alts on the same account as a main 70+ access to mormar pre-50.

Giving people the ability to blast their pre50 main crits through the mormar levels is not a good idea, the burn to 70/75 then quit because the game is boring, because they missed out all the content they should have done working upward to 50 in cobrahn.

There was LOTS and lots of level 50 characters made in cobrahn before nameless, since nameless cobrahn has only got even easier to gain experience in.

I dont see the need for change to allow pre level 50 characters into mormar so it can spoil the game for them.

I'm all for customer retention but I seriously dont think this is the way to do it.

If mormar access is granted to pre 50's then the experience gained should match that of a cobrahn, similar to the exp cap imposed on pre 25's in mormar (when they could get in).

But if that happens, then you wont want access to mormar anymore an you'll go back to cob because its easier :)
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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Cobra » Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:29 pm

Don't know why you guys think there is a 30-50 slump. You can easily get 100 megs an hour in cob, and lots more than that in dornar. Mormar is lvl 50 to get in, and you'll be there for 25 lvls.

You complain about the grind in cob and other areas, but want to spend more than 25 lvls in mormar? Where the only variety is which direction is the door from the stairs.

Just state the truth, you want to hunt the best xp area from lvl 1 so you don't have to hunt in lesser areas.

In response to the MA in mormar at 40/30, he just had the basic gear, hatchling armor, 2 lich robes, BL rings, phelm and improved nork gaunts.

Cobra

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Acaciam » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:19 pm

Merlin wrote: If mormar access is granted to pre 50's then the experience gained should match that of a cobrahn, similar to the exp cap imposed on pre 25's in mormar (when they could get in).
That's kinda what we're saying.
Cobra wrote:You complain about the grind in cob and other areas, but want to spend more than 25 lvls in mormar? Where the only variety is which direction is the door from the stairs.
No. We've (I've) suggested turning Mormar into something more like n1-n10. Throw in a little psi, some charm, push crits. Spice things up a bit.
What you're suggesting is spending 32 levels in cob, for a reason I can't figure out other than that's how you did it and think everyone else should or else you don't get street cred in drak or something..

Can I level to 18 in nork? Yes, but why do it when we have Aleria that offers a different flavor? Can I level to 50 in cob? Yes, and what we're saying is give us a spot in NL, or Cob, or France or wherever that gives us solo players on non-barbs some decent gains, similar to how Aleria works for Nork. The easiest thing to do would be to convert Mormar into said spot since the lower levels are mostly unused as is anyway.

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Martialarts » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:33 pm

I have to agree totaly with that
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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Martialarts » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:38 pm

Cobra wrote: In response to the MA in mormar at 40/30, he just had the basic gear, hatchling armor, 2 lich robes, BL rings, phelm and improved nork gaunts.

Cobra

Man i would like to belive you but i know better no way my ma was there at 45 and was useless.. I think you had healer and others ITS NOT SOLO area at all. At 60 i died so many time was not funny Dont say things that are simply not TRUE please it makes me think WTH am i even doing here.
I had full gear bl rings hatchling just INCUMBER an ma so more fluff there

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Tirith » Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:45 am

The point is that you guys are asking for an area that was designed for 50+ to be accessible to under 50 simply because the exp is so high... I promise you if it got tuned so -50 got much less exp from there (and we kick in some Line of Sight rules so nobody can leech) you wouldnt see any under 50s there.

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Merlin » Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:11 am

@MA - I remember Cobra's hatchling scales and his MA wasnt encumbered :) and yes I remember him soloing mormar too

maybe the answer should be something on the lines of:

So what I propose is leave mormar alone, its a 50+ area for a reason (mostly because if your not already rocking a 70+ main and have uber skillz, your gonna die anyways.)

A dungeon with 1-10 levels accessable through the bog, which contains critters of mixed abilities, and decent coin/gains. After all if a new subscriber has just shelled out $50 they are going to want to see some improovement for theire money <g>

This dungeon should have the following things:

Exp cap of level 35 (this should fill the 30-50 'slump':P).
Critters with ranges difficulties scales accordingly.
Questor NPC's which offer improvement to gear/stats.
Rare drops which people will value (such as Alerian Dread LS or similar rareity).
Linked Quests that force you to go back to NPC's in borderlands to complete for rewards.
Better loot than cobrahn, but not as good as mormar/sdc/bdc.
A Tanner and critters that tann and are usefull. (oh no there is a SwampRat which confuses you, but his fur when tanned into a cloak protects you from being confused)

How does that sound?
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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Quaternion » Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:09 am

I like this idea Merlin and the suggestions Acaciam made.

If you could link in some factioning to it that would also be great - ideas such as these that look to add variety are much better than the "i had it hard so should others" comments. Lets face it most of us on here are obsessive about the game we should be looking towards what more 'normal' players would want.

Futher to your idea - could add mini lairs in akin to dragon lairs and naga, slicer etc of nork dungeons

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Terrel » Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:41 am

Acaciam wrote:
Can I level to 50 in cob? Yes, and what we're saying is give us a spot in NL, or Cob, or France or wherever
France? That made me chuckle!

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Terrel » Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:42 am

Quaternion wrote:I like this idea Merlin and the suggestions Acaciam made.

If you could link in some factioning to it that would also be great
Yes, yes yes!

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Migam » Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:23 am

Merlin wrote: So what I propose is leave mormar alone, its a 50+ area for a reason (mostly because if your not already rocking a 70+ main and have uber skillz, your gonna die anyways.)

A dungeon with 1-10 levels accessable through the bog, which contains critters of mixed abilities, and decent coin/gains. After all if a new subscriber has just shelled out $50 they are going to want to see some improovement for theire money <g>

This dungeon should have the following things:

Exp cap of level 35 (this should fill the 30-50 'slump':P).
Critters with ranges difficulties scales accordingly.
Questor NPC's which offer improvement to gear/stats.
Rare drops which people will value (such as Alerian Dread LS or similar rareity).
Linked Quests that force you to go back to NPC's in borderlands to complete for rewards.
Better loot than cobrahn, but not as good as mormar/sdc/bdc.
A Tanner and critters that tann and are usefull. (oh no there is a SwampRat which confuses you, but his fur when tanned into a cloak protects you from being confused)

How does that sound?
Yeah, I like this. I mentioned making some underused areas like Sekora, GDH more doable for the exp 30-50 player but it is a small place compared to your 10-level idea and there is that hedged-in area sitting there in bog.

You could even expand Forged so that the start is less exp/skill, little easier for 30-35 and add floors that grow harder ala Cob Undead for larger players. A mix of attacks like Keep does makes it more interesting especially if for example, one floor is more thief-friendly (hide any hex), one is more healer-friendly, etc. something for everyone to solo if need be.

Drop of Alerian rares would be cool especially since plenty of NL drops are from Aleria right now. Maybe make these drops better, improvable, 5/5 sandals with 20% chance of combat-stun resistance, whatever.

Cutting huge exp sub50 in Mormar would also eliminate the need for the exp50 req issue and exp wouldn't outpace skill so much then though it does suck for the person growing another slot. I have many crits not even exp20 that I'm dragging butt to grow in Cob so don't think cutting exp doesn't hurt this "oldtimer" too :) .

What areas in Cob give 100m per hour? Arunsecret burning? I could use some tips cause I don't recall it being that huge.
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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Martialarts » Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:37 am

Bam right On You guys took you a while to get there but what an awsome idea.. really top notch thinking it could even have some danger to it.. I could have not thought of a better way to discuss and talk about the issue. Makes total sense. 8)

What a great Idea totaly rocks Merlin thanks.
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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Merlin » Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:26 am

Migam wrote: What areas in Cob give 100m per hour? Arunsecret burning? I could use some tips cause I don't recall it being that huge.
I used to make 100m+ in Ancients before ArunSecret was introduced, but I hear that place can produce similar if not better gains.

Also my barb made pretty nice exp and coin in ud5 roughly the sake once he was in gk2 gear,
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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Cobra » Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:41 am

Used to have a couple MTs set in lower keep, arun regular (was no secret area back then) and ancients.

Take about a minute to drag each zoo area, and ment to burn it down.

With all this talk about non-barb hunting areas, I think the game must be vastly different from when I played. The only class that has it harder than barbs at xp'ing are thieves. Ments/healers/pallies can aoe cob. Pallies and MAs at 40 can drag and ments/healers can aoe dornar. Ments are great at skilling in forgs, healers, pallies, and MAs tie for 2nd.

Barbs are better AFTER lvl 56. If a barb is outleveling or out skilling another class before lvl 56, other than thieves, maybe you should find another game to play.

Cobra

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Martialarts » Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:02 am

Seems nothing new and i guess its all the same.. I hear changes being made still no news tho.

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Cyric » Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:35 pm

This whole thread and other is increasing funny as I read through them. First people complain that others are growing to quickly through power leveling and skipping scenarios of content. Then they quit because they cap out at 78/39 with nothing left to do other than growing alts. Then complain when limits are imposed to slow things down.

Some changes are made to limit access to areas to force players to explore the game. Each change is to limit this or limit that. I'm sure the changes are made to keep the players interested and keep coming back. No game is fun when levels or gear is easily obtained. No one values them at that point. All my best times here were when guildies got together for hunting lairs, gear, etc. That should be the focus of the game.

I agree totally with establishing level limit to Mormar. 50 is a good start for entry but I'd say 55. Even at that level it can be had. Anyone who started this game in the last 5 years has no reason to complain at all. You now have the benefit tiers and quirks. These make this game incredibly easier than it was. The harder the better IMO. That way you value more what you obtain.

Cobra's post above is spot on in finding solo spots in Mormar for higher levels. Now it's even easier with the damage is lessened. As I did also the M16 solo routine. Growing myself almost totally 55-70 that way, without tiers and quirks. I took great pride at at being one of the first capped barbs in mid-1995 (if not the first).

Do not interpret this as a call for returning to the old days because we're long past that. However, by placing speed bumps in place to slow things down is a good start.

I know you don't see me online anymore so I may be missing some new changes. I can't be enticed back with crazy this or challenge that. They are nothing more than a diversion while new content is being created (or is it?). GDH/BDC/SDC are basically small additions to NL. I want to be wow'ed back into playing. At this point a complete new scenario can only accomplish this. NL is over.

I'll take my soapbox and go home now.
Cyric

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