NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

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Martialarts
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NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Martialarts »

Brad your loosing people because of the lvl 50 for mormar and really nothing they can do
until lvl 50 there so there not waiting around. Might want to make it lvl 40.
Just a thought at 40 they can do many things. Just thinking out loud.

Seems the grind in Crazy cob and aleria just to slow skill is blowing exp away great skill but not enuff exp to make it worth there wild? what do you think skill locked before you hit 35? seems a bit crazy to me..

Think about it at 40 most get skill locked so 40 seems to be about right..
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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Tirith »

This is a load of bull... crazy cob gives people a better challenge and makes cob last longer up into levels.. Mormar was designed for post 50, bringing anyone there prior to level 50 opens up the system for abuse of pleveling again, people under 50 just dont belong there. It's that simple, why bring up this old argument again? Stop beating a dead horse.

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Cobra »

Skill locked before 35? That was standard when the new skill system was put in. Had a lot of 32/30's and such even with regular cob. It's why people started burning arun, giants, etc...

Only thing that has changed since that time is NL made every class xp based.

You could easily get 90-100 megs an hour in regular cob just burning the right places. Can do more than that with roughly same group in dornar. Why do people need to get to mormar before lvl 50?

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Yohon »

1. Why is anything people disagree with automatically "bull"?
2. The Cob arguement would be valid if there were enough people playing/online to form the group youre talking about

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Martialarts »

Well GDH was supposed to be level 40+ but since no one helps there no one explores it that is why you have crazy cob. And as far as I am concerned your comments are just wacked so you think its bull. Yeah sure it is crazy cob is just alt2 nork. Crazy aleria is better skill BUT NONE can play there until level 65 and they best have a party and that makes sense because skill gain is off the hook.

There are those who think working on things is great but Brad you have forgot one thing. The Money you make from NL is now gone to most in the game until they reach level 50. This is just a ploy to milk people for
more money is all it is. In reality just lame, Spend time making more areas and things to do get off the low
end product. I once was a huge fan brought many and I do mean MANY to the game.

All the changes made have chased even MORE people away. So keep going and soon you can play by
all by your self. SOME people just do not get it they never will. (gets off his soap box)

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Acaciam »

Martialarts wrote:Well GDH was supposed to be level 40+ but since no one helps there no one explores it that is why you have crazy cob. And as far as I am concerned your comments are just wacked so you think its bull. Yeah sure it is crazy cob is just alt2 nork. Crazy aleria is better skill BUT NONE can play there until level 65 and they best have a party and that makes sense because skill gain is off the hook.

There are those who think working on things is great but Brad you have forgot one thing. The Money you make from NL is now gone to most in the game until they reach level 50. This is just a ploy to milk people for
more money is all it is. In reality just lame, Spend time making more areas and things to do get off the low
end product. I once was a huge fan brought many and I do mean MANY to the game.

All the changes made have chased even MORE people away. So keep going and soon you can play by
all by your self. SOME people just do not get it they never will. (gets off his soap box)

I think all posts about this game costing too much should be removed and have the authors suspended from the forums.

No one is forcing you to pay. You are not being milked for money. You are paying for a service, if you think it is too much, find something cheaper to do.
Also, it's still cheaper than taking a girl to the movies (most don't have to worry about this).



If you are unhappy, take a breath, compose your concerns in a readable format, and they will be addressed.

With the most recent additions, this game is the best value it has ever been. You are literally getting more for your money.

If you provided some constructive criticism, you'd have a greater chance of your opinion being valued because the whiny rants are almost impossible to decipher. I, for one, usually skip over these type of posts because they are hard to read and rarely contain anything credible.

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Quaternion »

I actually agree that the lvl 50 cap may need to be changed. My reason for this is as follows,

For a long time now drakkar has been a game where many players have enjoyed the act of power levelling multiple characters on multiple accounts to make their own armies. I acknowledge that this was not the original intention for the game but the changes in nl and the dwindling player base made this a necessity and actually I found it fun. In fact with the lack of new content this was pretty much the only thing keeping me playing.

I understand the motives for removing the ability to do this, too many new players were progressing so fast that they skipped most content and didn't really know how to do anything other than leech. Further more these players tend not to stick around for very long. So by restricting growth I guess it is hoped that more would stay for longer and get a better experience. I wonder if this is actually happening however. When I do log on I often see less than 10 people in the lobby. Has the restriction on growth actually harmed drakkar so that those, like my self, paying for multiple accounts no longer do so?

Could a possible solution be some kind of quest whereby if you could prove you had a lvl 70+ already you could gain mormar access on other slots at a lower lvl? Another suggestion could be perhaps 'buying' mormar access. It takes 5billion coins to chit to lvl 25. Only people with the resources of higher lvl characters can get this amount of coin, a level 25 chit which grants mormar access might work.

I realize these suggestions might be unpopular so I anticipate a flaming!

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Martialarts »

Here is the thing we all forget.. ANY money is good money that makes it to the game. For every 50 new players that go it alone 1 or 2 sticks around it seems. Normal times seems to be around 3 to 4 months seems that way to me. In no way is this a fact just personal exp.

Those who get the help and move forward and are taught along the way seem to enjoy the heck out of it.
But at some point they have to go it alone but average time spent in the game more then a year.. The ones
who come into the game for lack of a better word End Gamers last a short time in some cases 6 to 8 months..

Then there are us who make accounts just to keep growing in differnt ways ONES who have stood the test of time! So i find it purplexing that i am GRIPing about the money nothing can be futher from the truth! I use to purchase nl right off the bat for my new accounts now i would not because of the way it drags on. Just a thought nothing here is for bashing anyone person its Just a thought..

And then i see you Think i should be baned for discussiing it.. Real nice :roll: BTW Same gal for 39 years so if that was an attemp at a bash you missed.

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Migam »

No sense bickering and having this thread ignored cause then it just becomes a sounding board.

Powerleveling in Mormar via leeching 420m per level from 25 to 51 was overdone. There had to be a reason 51+ has an increasing amount of exp needed per each level and it likely was due to gaining more as you went deeper to a point. That is cause they were meant to be there. The leeches and leechees (?) of course trashed whoever spoke against this and labeled them as "jealous", "oldtimer", "old school thinking" or my personal favorite "get my head out of the sand" since the value of growing your own account and earning what you got was also overvalued. Yet, look at the popularity of Cnork and the players that came back for a Nork without outside influence. Whatever, why waste my breath? There are 2 camps and neither can be convinced of the opposite view.

However, once you do get one to 50 (or 70), I'd would like it easier on my other crits of the same account cause I don't gain 104m per hour in Cob. Some ideas were given why not focus on more ideas about that?

What would be nice to see suggested here is not making Mormar go back sub50 but rather see alternatives to grinding in Cob and Ccob to exp50; that gives the option to stay in Ccob, live in Borderlands/non-Mormar DL or do it a different way.

Ideas:

Make GDH more than a place to farm stuff or to progress to other places. Ease back a little on the damage there and make the hatchlings less fierce. My 60/29 healer (yeah, thanks to Mormar) dies fast there with all available tiers up, not even gonna try on 60/25 F/M (yeah, thanks to Mormar again). For drops that are for exp 35 to 55, I expected to hunt there at least by 30 and struggle; not struggle at 60.

Make sekora less to-hit and a bit more exp. Who hunts there besides to do lairs? Anyone? Re-examine every area to see what is being ignored. Dornar, Keep, Forgs and bandits are what players are exping/skilling in Borderlands. Gotta be more options.

Some kind of purchasable reveal so those who avoid bogs due to weapon loss will chance hunt there. Shred sucks, maybe easethe % back there?

Maybe not popular ideas but better to propose ideas than to tear each other down here. Hell, I managed to keep my temper and not even curse... anything is possible.

EDIT: Almost forgot about the idea of extending UD further though my idea of UD6 thru UD10 would be too much to handle. But there are other Cob areas that can be improved, surely, to give a little more exp.
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Merlin
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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Merlin »

Yes I agree with MA the Cap on mormar should be changed.

50 is just not right.

Here is my proposal.

Increase the mormar exp requirement to level 60, this will force people to actually play their characters in the swamp/force to attain experience 60, that way they should learn how to play and possibly handle mormar a tad better, rather just posting that its now too hard in mormar.

The main point is, we all did it this way(those of us you don't see posting on forums for reductions.), why should it be any easier for anyone else?

For alt characters I can see how this would be annoying, so if possible the game could use some sort of ticket system that is a free pass into mormar before level 50, once you already have a 75/35 char.

For example, I roll a slot 4 on my main account, which already has a level 75/35 character.

I grow my character to level 25/25 in cob/nork/nl or where ever.

I then want to blast up to level 75 because I have a guild willing to help me, then I should be able to attain some object/pass in game to allow my smaller slot access to mormar/harder areas.

But like cobra said, its not a massive issue for most of us because there are OTHER ways to grow characters.

Should someone who has a 25/22 barb be allowed access to mormar? Simply no, this will result in them power levelling, missing out everything in cob 25+ finding out that NL isnt all its cracked up to be and leaving, thus a loss of revenue for Drakkar.

Fact, NL sucks, keep people away from it aslong as you can.

25 levels of the same stuff just doesnt rock it for anyone.
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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Quaternion »

why should it be any easier for anyone else?
The normal progression of all online games is that it is easier for those who do it later. I think a large part of any game is healthy competition and trying getting bigger and better than the next guy. For new players in drakkar this is not possible so a new player looks at lvl 78's and thinks I will never get there so go and plays something else. In wow for example they recognized this was stopping people beginning and so halved the exp required to get to lvl 60 and instantly increased player retention.

Also on practical grounds have the changes made actually increased the player base or made people stay for longer? Should we not look at whether or not these changes are actually helping or hindering drakkar player numbers? Personally I think they are not, the only thing keeping numbers up seems to be cnork.

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Darge »

Merlin wrote: The main point is, we all did it this way(those of us you don't see posting on forums for reductions.), why should it be any easier for anyone else?
Agreed. Back to the days of 1% skill gains per hour, I say! :roll:

NL should have provided legitimate hunting grounds for exp/skill for lvl 35's from the start, not just the burn zoo's down tripe. GDH should have been a tangent to NL starting at lvl 50, also with legitimate hunting grounds.

NL isn't a quarter of the scenario Cobrahn or Aleria are (GDH is marginally better than its predecessor). There's always time to rectify that.
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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Acaciam »

I don't think it's about leeching, rather than leech in Mormar, people will now just leech in Dornar, UD5, Arun, Ancients, etc. Players will always leech because it's faster than solo grinding. This game is a grind and if you want to avoid leeching, make some areas viable for solo grinding like those in the beginning of the game.

It's about matching the difficulty of the dungeon to the player's level. That's a brilliant idea, but the game isn't the same as it was when NL was introduced. The party system worked great because there were people to party with. The only parties now are one person controlling multiple accounts.

Mormar entry should be level 70 or above as it is now. Even as a maxed MA I have difficulty surviving in relatively small zoos in dungeons as low as M10. I can't solo M10 without making an IH run between every zoo. It was easier to level 3 additional accounts and make my own 4 man party (and leech them off each other) than trying to solo in Mormar. Unless you are a barb, your options are limited.

Solution: give us a viable alternative to leeching. I don't want to run 4 accounts just to gain xp, but I can't do it with one. Even if it took 3x as long, if I could solo it I would. I think others would do the same.

The average player can sit in a level appropriate Nork/Aleria dungeon indefinitely and grind out xp. We need the same options for higher level areas. I frankly don't care how many people made 50 in cob, it took me 5+ years to get to 30 and most people aren't interested in that kind of time commitment.

Where does the majority of leeching take place? 1-18 is fine in Nork/Aleria. 18-20 is fine in Cob. It starts after xp 20.

20-25 - Crazy Cob feels right. It's actually great, but it's too hard. Double xp across the board in Cob and either lower quaz/shred/elance damage or up the xp to make up for the deaths and dp's that all non-barbs WILL encounter. I'm guessing mobs could stand to be weaker to psi/enmiss so magic users can xp there also. All other mob health/damage is fine.

25-30 - This should be doable with difficulty in NL (Dornar pre mantrapon), or fairly easy in Cob (ud5). Make Dornar hit less. The damage/mob health is fine, but without some high defensive adds, you get hit too much to survive reasonably. Doing ud5 as a non-barb at this level is impossible. It needs to be doable by other classes to give an alternative to the difficulty of Dornar.
Factioning is really just an inconvenience and it should be removed because there's only one way to do it without becoming depressed. It's a novel idea and if you'd like to keep it for lore, add a place that gives some sort of decent xp & points per kill that are killable by someone this level.

30-40 - Mormar 1-10. Lower mob health, lower mob xp, get rid of the auto-hit. Make leeching not worth it. Parties don't exist anymore, this could be retuned to an awesome solo experience.

40-50 - Mormar 11-20. See above.

50+ - See post above. GDH is great, the respawn is quick and while the retributive damage adds a unique flavor to the game, it gives non-barb classes a headache. Barbs vamp back more hp than the damage they take, they can kill here all day long. It's not like RP even hits them, but it makes MAs worthless. PSI doesn't hurt stuff enough for it to matter.
Not to mention things like shred in bog.. It takes 5 IH to regen the HP from shreds. I only have 30 IH. How long does it take for this to happen 6 times? About 30 seconds. It's obvious why people leech.

See the trend? We just need some places to solo where we aren't forced to leech and it will fix itself for the most part. There will always be the few that refuse to do it themselves, but that's nothing new.

As for skill, it's fine and nothing needs to be changed. Skill works great, Xp doesn't, but with some retuning, it could.

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Terrel »

Acaciam wrote:
Solution: give us a viable alternative to leeching. I don't want to run 4 accounts just to gain xp, but I can't do it with one. Even if it took 3x as long, if I could solo it I would. I think others would do the same......


....As for skill, it's fine and nothing needs to be changed. Skill works great, Xp doesn't, but with some retuning, it could.
Agreed! I realize some areas were tuned in the last few years to be more solo friendly...GDH, SDC, Mormar...but they still aren't really solo friendly. You can do them, slowly, with many IH runs; while that may technically make them solo-able, it doesn't make them solo-friendly!.

Friendly is where you can hunt a good while, and get lost in the slaughter. That's one of the things that makes the Nork scenario so much fun; the constant pop pop pop from your kills is satisfying!

I think the above mentioned areas are fine as group areas, but there need to be solo alternatives....hps cut drastically, 1 shot damage an extreme rarity, so you can stand in zoos. Of course, the rewards need to be tuned down. If you cut mob hp and damage down by 75%, the exp gains need to be cut (per mob) accordingly.

Make it take longer to level when soloing, but not tremendously so.

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Quaternion »

Regardless of the relative merits of level restricting areas should we not look on a more practical basis of whether or not these changes have actually increased players and or enhanced player retention.

As far as I can tell they have not, in fact may well have done the opposite. This suggests something else should be done.

I think making areas more suited to party as per Acaciams suggestion may have better results.
30-40 - Mormar 1-10. Lower mob health, lower mob xp, get rid of the auto-hit. Make leeching not worth it. Parties don't exist anymore, this could be retuned to an awesome solo experience.
This to me seems like a a great idea. What about adding in some variety in having mobs actually cast discs like fire and ice, drop a variety of items and actually give it a more norkish dungeon experience?

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Brad »

We did a big tuning on mormar recently. ( to make it pretty solo friendly ).

In fact, i was told the lower levels were "too" easy now for the exp gain.

Are you saying they need to be EASIER?

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Merlin »

MA is saying he doesn't want to achieve level 50 before being allowed access to mormar.

I personally think level 50 is a little low and should be raised to 60.

But there needs to be something in between 50 <-> 60 to fill this gap.


OR if its an alt crit they should be able to get a token from another crit on the account which allows them to bypass the level 50 requirement, like the cobrahn portal pass seller.
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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Mars »

the cob pass "seller" is not so an alternate crit can bypass the lvl req for COB

But I understand the idea

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Martialarts »

Brad wrote:We did a big tuning on mormar recently. ( to make it pretty solo friendly ).

In fact, i was told the lower levels were "too" easy now for the exp gain.

Are you saying they need to be EASIER?
You were TOLD WRONG how about listening to ones who go there everyday.

Brad its is not solo-able your in a dream world 1-5 a level 55 has to do many runs. And they get ZERO EXP 7-10 is almost impossable for a psi user and after 11 you best have a healer or a person to run for ihs.. Really a joke if you ask me what you tried to do is admirable but its not working..

More over the real topic is I want to raise my personal accounts and make a fm a pally ect. I said forget about its way to much of a grind.. 1-18 in nork is easy enough takes a bit longer but 18-25 is a real pain but douable, 25-50 Is just ridicules. I am sure that this has DRIVEN more people away I am 100% positive.

Everyone is worried about end gamers they will come find a way and leave.. I advise people not to purchase NL until level 50 now so that money is drying up faster then you can say Zip it..

Those who have stood the test of time are not even talking about it they just left. They feel like they are ignored anyways. From the time this started all our active members left now its just me. Out of 52 people in the game that I consider Drakkar Mates 2 are left.

What is cnork now have like 10 12 active players. One person drove all the new peeps in that part away.

I know this is hard to grasp But adding more content and expanding is the way to grow the game not change it after all the years. People have time invested in the game then bam gone are the good old days. This in no way is name calling or putting the blame on any one person its just the facts as I see it and i could be wrong but time shall see. Or maybe i am getting burnt out or fustrated or all of the above.

(mars im not intrested in spending a year in cob)
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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Martialarts »

Make an area for people who want to grow there own critters from 25-*50 a place that makes since.

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Mars »

Martialarts wrote:Make an area for people who want to grow there own critters from 25-*50 a place that makes since.

yep, sounds like Cob <G>

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Martialarts »

Mars wrote:
Martialarts wrote:Make an area for people who want to grow there own critters from 25-*50 a place that makes since.

yep, sounds like Cob <G>

Nope Cob is painfull and growing for 18-30 is ok but not 50 affter 30 its just trashy exp.
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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Terrel »

Martialarts wrote:
Mars wrote:
Martialarts wrote:Make an area for people who want to grow there own critters from 25-*50 a place that makes since.

yep, sounds like Cob <G>

Nope Cob is painfull and growing for 18-30 is ok but not 50 affter 30 its just trashy exp.
the exp needed to get from level 45 to 50 is exactly the same as to get from 25 to 30. So if it works for 25 to 30, it works for 45 to 50!

I do agree about the solo-ability of mormar (and GDH and SDC). It is, and should be, a group dungeon. I wouldn't tune it down any more. I'd make another area that is really and truly solo friendly. Every class should have the ability to kill a single mob in 1 to 4 attacks, given reasonable gear. (That's why killing in nork is fun...well, one reason.) Exp per kill should be nowhere near what it is in mormar; skill per kill should be less than in the forge. I shouldn't have to make an IH run every 5 minutes...kills the flow (i.e., fun).

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Cobra »

All I have to say for solo'ing in mormar, is discover m16. I got my barb to 75 just by killing one crit at a time. Use imagination. Why stand in a zoo of mobs and run for IH every zoo? Kill one at a time and not use IH for a longer period of time. You think people did it any different on km5 back in the day when yeti and yellow robe was uber?

It's actually much faster than km5 in the old days. For lvl 75, you need 10x the xp, but are getting 100x the xp per mob; and unless you're fighting the super guys, they die about as fast as km5 minos back in old nork. 30-50 meg xp and 1-2% skill a day used to be fricken awesome day on km5.

Just putting current game into perspective.

Cobra

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Re: NL Cost vs use. lvl 50? rethink that maybe

Post by Terrel »

Cobra wrote:All I have to say for solo'ing in mormar, is discover m16. I got my barb to 75 just by killing one crit at a time. Use imagination. Why stand in a zoo of mobs and run for IH every zoo? Kill one at a time and not use IH for a longer period of time. You think people did it any different on km5 back in the day when yeti and yellow robe was uber?

It's actually much faster than km5 in the old days. For lvl 75, you need 10x the xp, but are getting 100x the xp per mob; and unless you're fighting the super guys, they die about as fast as km5 minos back in old nork. 30-50 meg xp and 1-2% skill a day used to be fricken awesome day on km5.

Just putting current game into perspective.

Cobra
I think that works ok for some classes, Cobra, but not for many. They lack either the offensive punch to kill a single mob in less than 30 minutes (ok..I may be exaggerating), or they lack the heals that a barb gets from leech. A solo MA will get torn up; a solo healer simply can't kill anything there in a reasonable period of time.

Either way, it can be done, but it isn't much fun that way. I'd hazard a guess and say that given the choice of 1 crit that takes 10 minutes to kill and gives 10m exp, and 60 crits that take 10 seconds to kill each but give 100k exp, most folks would go with the latter.

I still think Mormar (and GDH, SDC) is ideally a group dungeon, and solo dungeons should be developed as a counterpart.

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