The structure of NL/DL

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TangoDown
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The structure of NL/DL

Post by TangoDown » Sat Dec 23, 2006 2:12 pm

While I'm sure this has be adressed before, I have yet to get a straight answer. This is to Brad and while I'm sure others will reply for him, I am only insterested in his answer to this.

What was your thinking behind creating Dornar and Forgottens? Yes I know dornar is made for the primal ingot quest, but why make it eaisly burnable for 30 levels of stacking commands and not moving from a dozen or so hex's. Also for forgottens, the same question.

While I'm sure your going to say that they were not intended to be that way, you could have eaisly changed them to make it more difficult to grow there. The game for the most part, has gone from large zoos of fairly weak creatures (with a few tough ones thrown in there) to a game of zoos of creatures that can take over a dozen hits before droping, which is like many other mass multiplayer online games mind you.

So mainly, why did this game go from something that requires even an ounce of skill , to one that you can set up a Tasker to get you maxed level with out even breaking a sweat. And that is my rant for this day.

-ElTango

*Edit: Typos"
Last edited by TangoDown on Sat Dec 23, 2006 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Teh_Cheat
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Replying to Topic 'The structure of NL/DL'

Post by Teh_Cheat » Sat Dec 23, 2006 3:32 pm

Why rant about something that you used to grow your own crit? A great number of people have used dornar/forgs to grow crits, but after you hit 55/30 you don't say that was wrong of me I should have done it the 'correct' way in Cobrahn.

I used dornar and forgottens from 20/18 all the way to 55/30, does that make me a bad player? Did I miss out on scenarios or different parts of the game? No. I have been all over Nork, Aleria, and Cobrahn. I get tired of people saying that all NL does is produce unexperienced players, NL doesn't produce that. It's a players choice if he/she wants to go back to other areas of the game. I know that from lvl 13-75 I visited Aleria all the time just for fun.

And in the title it says the structure of DL. I didn't get the luxury of having an MA psweep Mormar or a Mentalist to TSS it. From 55-75 it was one kill after the next. A lot of people went through it that way also.

I know you were looking for an answer from Brad, but I just needed to rant about how hypocritical your rant was. :)
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Darge
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Replying to Topic 'The structure of NL/DL'

Post by Darge » Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:07 pm

As john said, fast growth does not equate to little experience. Also, as he said (and I agree), he himself is testament to the incorrectness of that statement.
So mainly, why did this game go from something that requires even an ounce of skill
You want to know why the game doesn't require skill? Because people always want things made easier to the point where they just aren't challenging, whether it be lairs, hunting grounds, or whatever.

If you want content that demands knowing your class very well, knowing how classes can interact and synergize, knowing exactly how certain pieces of gear works, knowing exactly what disk and tiers do, then you also accept the fact that you WILL die (maybe alot, maybe a little), you WILL make mistakes and suffer the consequences of them, and you WILL have to think outside the box. For some reason, I get the impression not everybody wants to deal with that.

3 rants in 3 posts, hooray.
SIN
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Uni
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Replying to Topic 'The structure of NL/DL'

Post by Uni » Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:30 pm

oh so way to miss the point...

the point is there is .. nothing of value fun or joy in nl

it is not fun burning for a bunch of leachers and it is not fun leaching from idiotic burners... you cant go with a few friends and have fun there .. no gotta have designated burner or baiter .... till you get to dl .. where you can die ugly deaths to bog creatures .. woot i cant wait for that:) .... gee to die in dl ... without being tpd by some idiotic big crit who didnt notice me beneath his giant feet...

yes i hate nl...
i hate it with a passion

there is no treasure nothing fun .. its for massacists .. who like pain .. and for wheeler and dealers to get someone to exp them ... i know people level 60 who are afraid of lairs... cuz theyve never been IN ONE.... they have watched tv .. while someone else gets them to that level .. and THIS is a game.. i listened to a damn level 60+ ment begging for pepople to help him with wardens last night .. disgusting.

worse I am paying for this CRAP?
and omg even worse have to listen to a bunch of LEACHERS tell me like it or shut up?

what you get to 60 then play?
i dont see to many grand above 60s around...... worth bothering with ..

Im going back to cob.... im sure no loss to anyone .. cept a couple leachers have to find a new leechee....

ive said enough... and not near enough..


AGAIN the point is .. NL is not a game.. its... a leech factory .. its disgusting ..
and YEAH im with you tango ... wtf was the point cuz i sure MISSED IT BRAD!


lol and you can respond or not .. doubt ill bother to look.. youll note this is first time ive responded to anything..... to each their own...... im going back to cob.. i guess unless nl changes to something worth PLAYING .. im not going back unless dragged<which i will have to be>
~*~ It's not wise to play leapfrog with the Unicorn ~*~

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Replying to Topic 'The structure of NL/DL'

Post by Uni » Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:38 pm

and yeah imo it does make you a bad player.. grin
~*~ It's not wise to play leapfrog with the Unicorn ~*~

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Merlin
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Replying to Topic 'The structure of NL/DL'

Post by Merlin » Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:54 pm

Where's the Camera's? - i'm half expecting Jeremy Beadle to jump out

but seriously, was that post a joke?

alot of players forget they have options, go back to cob and come to NL when you are lvl 50 then you only have to "leech" for 5 levels in dornar.

Who said you have to come to NL?

go learn how to play,

i cant think of anything else to put that will satisfy your needs for an argument.


*Merlz* - 50/30 Cob Mentalist - so suck it ;) That make me a good player? Huh Uni ??pfft

Ps. I Know you will read this post :)
Last edited by Merlin on Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Uni
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Replying to Topic 'The structure of NL/DL'

Post by Uni » Wed Dec 27, 2006 9:11 pm

dunno who you are trying to impress with your suck it comments.. certainly not me.
I had no argument... so you cant answer to it.
I basically made a statement...
i hate nl... and why ...
and wondering how i missed the point of how it is fun?... cuz i dont consider leeching or being leeched fun?
and no treasure?... i mean . huh?
i sincerely do not get it ....
and i obviously said that about darge as a JOKE... ok so not funny ... but ... at the time ... it gave me a giggle.. ok?

sorry darge . was a stupid thing to say .

:p
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Darge
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Post by Darge » Wed Dec 27, 2006 9:24 pm

Anyone else find irony in a condemnation from someone who has not even tasted more than half the scenario? Anyone?
where you can die ugly deaths to bog creatures .. woot i cant wait for tha
...you WILL die (maybe alot, maybe a little), you WILL make mistakes and suffer the consequences of them, and you WILL have to think outside the box. For some reason, I get the impression not everybody wants to deal with that.
and yeah imo it does make you a bad player..
This begs a comparison of the caliber of playing skills, and as such you have my condolences.
Last edited by Darge on Wed Dec 27, 2006 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

Eons
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Replying to Topic 'The structure of NL/DL'

Post by Eons » Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:16 pm

Roflmao it truely amazes me how often those who have played a while consider lvl as the in all be all of who is wise or not wise, Still the same i see. I think tango and uni brought up some good comments about nl that have yet to be addressed, instead they are attacked like raw meat tossed to dingos, again the same o same o in drak forms
when will u attackers of others relize your attacks only make it appear u cant address the issue but only attack the person. This 2 me makes all u say totally lame and lacking any creditability....so in future if u cant reply to the questions or statements with out attacking the person making them, Dont u only appear as a rabid dog defending the undefendable as well as proving there point. U might have good comments but they become meaningless by the rabid attack on the person making the remark, question, or comments.
I relize from the past this will change nothing but i just wanted to state the ovious to the blind. :p

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Replying to Topic 'The structure of NL/DL'

Post by Stormwind » Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:11 am

Nameless was designed with levels 50+ in mind. It is also very heavily dependant on 'group play'. Even at level 50, you need people who are skill 30 in their main skill and often in the case of ments/healers/thieves in the high 20's or 30 in their secondary skills. Even then expect a beating at times.

Solo play in nameless is easier for certain characters at lower levels in certain places, easier for others in other places. Such is the way drakkar has almost always worked. Different classes have an advantage at different points of the game.

Allowing players of any levels in there is just bait from brad to make more loot.

If it was easy, it wouldn't be much fun.

-Stormwind
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Replying to Topic 'The structure of NL/DL'

Post by TangoDown » Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:01 pm

Originally posted by Darge


As john said, fast growth does not equate to little experience. Also, as he said (and I agree), he himself is testament to the incorrectness of that statement.
I'm not sure how you took this post as directed to you two, but back on topic, the current product of NL/DL have been players that know nothing of the game and ask questions like "can I kill Uther?" "Where is homlet?" "Guardian?" , this is mostly from the 'newer' players since people that have been around pre-DZ (and eairly also) have seen and experienced most of the game. I know many, to many infact, that ask these questions and its sad to actualy see people rocket from a rush to NL and blast to upper 40's in under a month of 'normal' playing (Yes you can become even more of a drakjunkie and go to 55 in under a month, I've seen it). So inresponse to this I demand a required test during the 'primalizing' stage of 55. 100 questions will suffice.

*Edit* This thread is anti-flamewar, so cool down and flame me in a mannered and controlled state.
Last edited by TangoDown on Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Darge
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Replying to Topic 'The structure of NL/DL'

Post by Darge » Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:23 pm

I don't recall referring to myself in the "I'm not like that!" section.

I do recall backing up john's assertion that not every fast growing player who has been around for a relatively little ammount of time lacks game experience, as he himself is one, and easily has a wealth of game experience and knowledge.

Last I saw, the "test" for primality was solving the wisdom puzzle and taking down all the ingot bearing lairs with a non primal group. So maybe when you yell at brad for "creating" noobish players with NL, maybe you should be yelling at those who put the answer to Norken Wisdom and quest steps up on websites, and those who sold/gave out ingots and ajamtax scrolls.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

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Replying to Topic 'The structure of NL/DL'

Post by Tirith » Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:35 pm

I would love to ignite a flame, but I just don't have the effort in me. I would just like to say this about some comments I seen made. You do not have to leech, nor do you have to leech others in NL. Yes, you may grow faster that way because ments can kill faster with firebreath, and pallies can hold them around a corner. But there are other ways to play, try different strategies than going with the usual way of doing things. You do NOT have to play the way everyone else does. There are more than 1 way of hunting different areas. I remember when John was baiting dornar and grew from a rather low level to a huge player now. He is one very experienced player, and to be honest, I think it was pretty cool to know him when he was a lower level player. I seen him become big and knowledgeable. The thing about rushing to lvl 50 or 60 or whatever in a month. Is that in that month you will have almost no knowledge of anything other than dornar or wherever it is you powerleveled at. And to be perfectly honest, hearing a lvl 50 or higher asking simple nork questions makes my stomach turns. If you want to be respected at all, learn nork at an appropriate level or keep your mouth shut when you are big enough to go everywhere in nork without dying and learn it yourself.

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Replying to Topic 'The structure of NL/DL'

Post by Tnem » Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:55 pm

I agree with Tirith you dont have to leach and ive found people who zoom up to 50 in a month just get bored and disinterested. Take it slowly and learn for yourself how to do things.
Darge i know you are refering to my site and you also DONT have to look at it. I use it for reference i put it up so that others can too.
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Darge
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Replying to Topic 'The structure of NL/DL'

Post by Darge » Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:16 pm

Human nature is to take the easy way, so when confronted with the choice of looking at your website, or figuring things out, guess which prevails.
bored and disinterested.
Because things aren't as easy as #focus parry and *drink, or #form liminv #form firebreath NW NE NE E. The boredom factor of mormar has pretty much been horribly fractionalized with quirks and new gear.

Personally, I think alot of people just can't handle the ammount of patience required to get truly topend or they can't form effective and semi-permanent groups, but that's just my opinion.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

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Replying to Topic 'The structure of NL/DL'

Post by Teh_Cheat » Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:59 pm

My post wasn't a flame, I didn't attack you Tango, all I said was the post sounded hypocritical. I don't believe that is a flame, I didn't say anything about you personally. What Leif, Merlin, Tnem, and Tirith are trying to say is what I said basically. Take your time through NL. Honestly, I believe that most of those people never went through keep, never hunted in the ice floes, never killed banditkins or forestgiants, never killed in the mines. Those are different areas of NL they skipped. Who's fault is that? So what if they make it to lvl 55 and know nothing? Does that harm anyone else? No. All they did was harm themselves. You want to talk about higher level crits helping them out, I have never power leveled anyone lower than me, I can't remember the last time I even did a hunt with someone below lvl 65. Not saying that I'm to good to hunt with them, just saying I enjoy hunting in more very difficult stages of the game. I guess my main point is, is that why do you honestly care Tango that people make lvl 55 fast? It doesn't harm you, and when you see someone lvl 60 asking how do I kill Uther, laugh and say that's pretty pathetic. Don't attack Brad because that person ruined their drak experience.

Also Unicorn Lady, there is a lot more to DL than just hunting bog. I know their isn't much, but bog is fun to me. Yeah, it was really hard, but it was great. I skilled 30-35 there while maxxing my killer ls. Besides from bog you can kill in forge, arcanists, bandits, the 8 lairs of mormar, rift titans, and albron. Not everything has to be lets go hunt forge for skill and mormar for exp! Cob is fun, go there when you don't have a group to hunt with. And when you and your group all get to a decent level, and a decent party size, try GDH, it may be hard, but since when was something fun when it was easy? And GDH is a lot easier now, than it was when it first came out. And my point to you is that you don't have to go to the places where you gain fastest as tirith said. Choose where you want to play.
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Replying to Topic 'The structure of NL/DL'

Post by Tee » Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:14 pm

i do agree with uni and tango that it is two easy to get skill and exp in NL but tango i know for a fact that you had no problem with it when you were using forgs and dornar to grow because i was right there with you , and your complaining that people are leeching no matter what area you go to either nork,aleria or cob there is going to be leeching so i really dont understand the problem besides people not knowing how to get to lairs or what the lairs are but that was there choice of how to play and you really cant do much about that...
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Replying to Topic 'The structure of NL/DL'

Post by TangoDown » Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:33 am

Originally posted by Tee

Missed the entire point of the topic Tee.

To John, Im not taking your post as a flame , but from the ones following it, it seemed to be the start of a pointless little flame war. So I asked it to not be here.

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Replying to Topic 'The structure of NL/DL'

Post by Cobra » Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:21 pm

Unfortunately, there's always going to be a couple of places in game that are the best for skill, exp, or coin. Will people hunt there a lot, yes. Will there be some people that only hunt those areas and don't learn anything else about the game, yes. If you come across idiots that have no idea about game other than, "someone want to bait/burn dornar?", simply ignore them, or don't hunt with them. Personally, I don't understand how people do forgs or dornar, extremely boring. Granted it's good gains, but this is a game, should play for fun, not to get big fast.

The people that only know killing forgs and dornar will show themselves pretty quickly. And just as quickly these same people will be left at a loss later in the game where knowledge of game and classes become very useful and almost required in harder areas of the game.

Granted the people that rush through game appear to be making more progress than other people, but what happens when they burn out after a few months because they get to an area that's not just sit and bait/burn.

Play the game to have fun and little things like this will solve themselves.

Cobra

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Replying to Topic 'The structure of NL/DL'

Post by Skip » Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:58 pm

I love it when some psi users dont bother to get any weapon skill, then wonder why they die so easily in NL.

Baddies in NL will chew ya up in a hurry if ya dont have weapon skill to add to your defense.

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Replying to Topic 'The structure of NL/DL'

Post by srflynn64 » Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:01 pm

Only in the past couple of days i got NL and have had a taste of Dornar and Forgottons.

just for info im 32/26+3 Barb and grunted my own way there over the past 8-9 months thru nork-aleria-Cob with another Barb that 2 levels below me now (my misses)
Tango - why did this game go from something that requires even an ounce of skill , to one that you can set up a Tasker to get you maxed level with out even breaking a sweat
my answer - People get bored of doing things the old way and hear how good NL/DL is from the people that are there and they want the same.

Heck even we are that bored of grunting UD - which is why we got NL to see what we as a pair/team can do there.
i've even gone back to do N6 to start skilling MA up so i can sweep and see if i can get more XP that way though the boredom and wanting to go back a bit and see a different screenshot.

.
UNI - there is no treasure nothing fun .. its for massacists .. who like pain .. and for wheeler and dealers to get someone to exp them
my answer - How is there no treasure? id say for those able to go on a quest and being there to see a kill shot and getting a robe and learning something new the treasure.

One thing i cant understand though about forgottons is like Tango mentions how it takes so long to Kill a crit - i can 2-3 shot in the swamp and for more XP per crit than the 8-12 hits in forgottons at froth for a crit.

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Replying to Topic 'The structure of NL/DL'

Post by Tnem » Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:47 pm

I think it depends how you play. If you like to explore and do everything then there is alot to do and to explore. But if u are a power player that only cares about lvling quick and being the biggest then u can also do that. NL caters for many playing styles.
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Re: The structure of NL/DL

Post by icawn » Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:02 pm

this thread is old but i wanted to make a quick correction. merlin you butthole you aren't a pure cob 50/30:P don't take advantage just because every person in this thread was too new to prove otherwise.

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Re: The structure of NL/DL

Post by Perish » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:33 pm

I am old enough to remember and I can assure you he was. He also killed Lazloth with me before NL so why don't you try to get your fact straights. Typical SUU.
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Re: The structure of NL/DL

Post by Poldarn » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:18 pm

Perish wrote:I am old enough to remember and I can assure you he was. He also killed Lazloth with me before NL so why don't you try to get your fact straights. Typical SUU.
Perish

^^this... he actually was.

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