Testing major game additions

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Doro
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Post by Doro »

1) Make a portal (one way only) which 'clones' existing player. Players start afresh each time they login in portal room on original server NOT the test machine.

Each time a player goes through with whatever slot they choose, they get a new clone.
Can then 'trash' existing slots and walk through as if it never happened.

Upside: - No loss of gear/stats/skill/exp.
Downside:- A mountain of DPs and duped gear on test server.

2) The testing itself of new rules will be reward enough (much the same as IEN - DZ testing phase).

Upside: - Players will not be tempted to reap other benefits.
Downside: - No newbies (but that in itself might be a plus ho ho).

3) NDA definately IF the changes will have such a great effect on the rest of the player base.

Upside: - You get to lockout blabber-mouths.
Downside: - Can't think of one.

4) Don't give rewards.

Upside: - Players test purely for the delights of testing only.
Downside: - Some may think they have wasted their time.

I look forward to the test.

Of course if EVERYONE wants to test then build it right inplace of Nork alt 2 , call it Test alt 1 and let anyone in, notifying EVERYONE that their crits will be reset back to a certain date when testing is complete.

Doro___ASH
ho

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Astra
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Replying to Topic 'Testing major game additions'

Post by Astra »

I agree with what most of other people said about a different server but just had an idea for a reward. Add a new room similar to legends room but instead have gold tiles on floor. On tiles could have names of testers who did a certain time amount of testing. If i was testing i would rather something like that then a new item etc.
I look forward to testing
Keep up the good work


Astra_ASH

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Acaciam
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Post by Acaciam »

I don't think he means a gag order in #3, I think he means how will he be able to keep it exciting after someone has been testing it for whatever amount of time.

i.e. If it costs exra to play in (which i'm sure it would) how can he make someone want to purchase it if they have been playing it for a year in testing and have seen all there is to see.

As for the other testing, give the testers an assigned account to play from only on that server.

Make it fun and people will play it hardcore.
Communication End.

Elessar
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Replying to Topic 'Testing major game additions'

Post by Elessar »

One potential problem with cloning accounts over to the test server for play testing is that 50/30 characters will not be able to notice any abnormalities regarding exp/skill gain, as they gain none of either. This would also be a problem if gains were extremely accelerated, unless the expansion of the exp/skill system were one of the things being tested.

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purg
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Post by purg »

I have seen ALOT of great ideas, i just think there is going to be some problems with alot of them. Like doros Idea of crits stepping through a portal and it gets cloned, The idea is great, but the fact it would require alot of coding i think, and then the possiblity of a bug and your crit ACTUALLY going over to test server and the sysops/brad having to bring your crit back.

I think this might be a good way personally but also might require alot of coding.

Each player tester logs into the server, and each time they log in, they make a new crit, They put in the LVL, Class, Weapon skill(s) and specs and such, then when they are in, they will see a line of Gear masters, They will be supplied with every Weapon and Gear item in the game, The player walks down the line selects his gear and weapons for that day of testing and goes out and tests. When the player logs off the crit disappears.

If brad wants certain Class/Weapon/LVL or something of this nature tested he can put up a message at the beginning of the log in to the test server, or make it to where a player tester logs in they are already set for that type of testing.

I also think there should be a seperate front end for testers, this way we can talk to each other without players on the Main front end hearing whats being said. Also sysops can be there as a bug shows up if they are there and view it first hand, if not then the player can post it in the Testers forum.

Another idea might be each tester has a certain part of the game to test. 10 might be for weapons, 10 for armor, 10 for lairs, this way not everyone will know whats all going on in other parts.


Ill try to explain a possible way to set this up, lets say brad wants 100 tester. 20 for weapons, 20 for lairs, 20 for gear, 20 for skill, 20 for exp. *these are just examples* Then there would be a pop up list with radio buttons, as a tester logs in the first time they select what they are wanting to test. Each radio button is listed 1-20 if all 20 buttons for weapons testing are full, then they have to test something else. Once you select what you want to test, you will be permanantly set for that type of testing, and you cant select more then one type of testing without brad authorizing you to have a second testing account.


Shew this was a little long winded for me. My apologies for making it so long.
Last edited by purg on Fri Oct 25, 2002 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Dimitri
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Replying to Topic 'Testing major game additions'

Post by Dimitri »

Originally posted by Brad



There are several fundamental engine changes that I will soon need more than "spot" testing on.

Without getting into details, I would like to query feedback on what the best way to handle "large scale testing" is.

Specifically, if we create a player test server, how do we handle it..

1) Can players take characters back and forth? And if so, what do we do about bugged items, wacko exp and skill gains / losses, item losses/gains, etc. We don't have the manpower to even replace single items, let alone wipes, major dupes..

2) If we use COPIES of characters instead, what would encourage people to participate in the testing? Sure they will try it for a while, but what we will need is hard core play on the server.

3) How do we "not spoil" the "magic" of new changes, when they will have been played to death during a test process? (This has always been the one that bothers me).

4) How do we keep people from believing INTER test changes are tweaks/losses to their classes? (Example, we give barbarians +10 to hit on test to test it, but later decide it needs to be +5 or something like that, and the barbarian community barfs 8 pages of forum "you are ruining the class" messages)


I'm interested in your calm, rational thoughts on this matter.

Thanks,
Brad

my take on this:
1) no, save yourself alot of headache <g>
2) copies is a good idea, but lets deviate from that idea for a second and instead of copies do testing crits generated by you and assigned to testers with varying levels and classes along with the new experimental "enhancements" or "additions" per crit classes. In addition, to attract said testers(detachment from real server and implant them for hardcore play in test server) that will be taken away from there "real" slots/accounts and hence there growth there, i would suggest some bonus or something of the sort to make up for it since testing gains and items dont carry over. And finally for #2, you will most likely encounter this scenario in whatever choice u make and this is "well i'm testing for u but i'm still paying for an account that i will have little or no time to play on now" again, maybe the bonus idea or something of the sort may be a persuasive tool here. (good luck on that one tho) <g>
3) i would gather u couldnt , however, going with my idea in #2, and having testers limited on test servers to isolated testing areas you could limit the exposure to the new material per tester. Also if you do some screening on the testers and give them different classes that are not the same as there primary and perhaps maybe even going as far as not even a class they played at all(might not be possible), you could still save some of the mystique(or magic) to players before the "go live date". Dont know what time constraints or manpower your working with tho but that could be a viable option.
4) no such thing as a happy medium as i'm sure you know <g> however my suggestion here is to be upfront and honest with the testers and do an emphasis that this is pure testing project but if u go with the pre-generated formula on my feedback #'s 2 and 3 you might alleviate that dilemma. all imho~

good luck to u brad and co. whatever decision u make i'm sure it wont be an easy project but i for one appreciate the effort and i'm happy to see the future expansion. Kudos^

~DiMz
Last edited by Dimitri on Sat Oct 26, 2002 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by GhostGuest »

Ok, my opinions. First, I'll go back to what someone else Pointed out, but most seem to be ignoreing. That is, Brad said he was talking about testing a new " game engine". That is why he needed a more through and different way of testing than in the past. What i precieve he is getting ready to do is, essentialy, create a whole new "game". A "Drakkar 2" so as to speak. I therefore also deduce that he will need the whole spectrum of all the games functioning tested. Things like gaining exp., then leveling. Also applies to skiiling, and then the resultant effrects upon a crit. Also consider Lair monsters and the items they drop.... think of all the complications and effects of that!!! And this is why he asked question #3 IMHO. But, i will also go with the majority about keeping it on a totaly seprerated server. As to what crits to bring to the test server, thats kinda hard to say. Copying current crits sounds good on the surface, but it has it's draw backs if he is testing a "whole" world based on a totaly new game engine. If the copyed crits retain current items,and set flags for lairs and, um... "clubs", then those things may not get tested properly under the new game engine. If you wanted to use a copy methood, having the crits "striped" of all gear, items and set flags would probly work, though i suspect many a player would balk at that. Another option, suggeswted by others allready, would be a set of " pre-made" crits. But i suspect the crit generater would also have to be tested, and then the newly made crits would have to be checked out for flaws too. I am also of the opion that however crits are gotten, that they would be strictly for beta testing, and would be wiped once the game goes live. Ok, now as to a "reward", well im kinda split on that. On the one hand, i confess i drool at the prospect of getting something realy cool and neat. But on the other hand, ther is nothing like the feeling that you get from just knowing you are in a unique and special group. The Esprit 'De Corpe ( pardon any misspelling of that) that comes with being in such a group is all the reward ya need somtimes. Well pardom me long ramblings here, but i hope I've at least outlined some options, as well as pointed out the potential complexity of what Brad may be about to try. But I'm game to help with it.
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Replying to Topic 'Testing major game additions'

Post by Watcher »

Originally posted by GhostGuest


Ok, my opinions. First, I'll go back to what someone else Pointed out, but most seem to be ignoreing. That is, Brad said he was talking about testing a new " game engine". That is why he needed a more through and different way of testing than in the past. What i precieve he is getting ready to do is, essentialy, create a whole new "game". A "Drakkar 2" so as to speak. I therefore also deduce that he will need the whole spectrum of all the games functioning tested. Things like gaining exp., then leveling. Also applies to skiiling, and then the resultant effrects upon a crit. Also consider Lair monsters and the items they drop.... think of all the complications and effects of that!!! And this is why he asked question #3 IMHO. But, i will also go with the majority about keeping it on a totaly seprerated server. As to what crits to bring to the test server, thats kinda hard to say. Copying current crits sounds good on the surface, but it has it's draw backs if he is testing a "whole" world based on a totaly new game engine. If the copyed crits retain current items,and set flags for lairs and, um... "clubs", then those things may not get tested properly under the new game engine. If you wanted to use a copy methood, having the crits "striped" of all gear, items and set flags would probly work, though i suspect many a player would balk at that. Another option, suggeswted by others allready, would be a set of " pre-made" crits. But i suspect the crit generater would also have to be tested, and then the newly made crits would have to be checked out for flaws too. I am also of the opion that however crits are gotten, that they would be strictly for beta testing, and would be wiped once the game goes live. Ok, now as to a "reward", well im kinda split on that. On the one hand, i confess i drool at the prospect of getting something realy cool and neat. But on the other hand, ther is nothing like the feeling that you get from just knowing you are in a unique and special group. The Esprit 'De Corpe ( pardon any misspelling of that) that comes with being in such a group is all the reward ya need somtimes. Well pardom me long ramblings here, but i hope I've at least outlined some options, as well as pointed out the potential complexity of what Brad may be about to try. But I'm game to help with it.

The game we are playing now is "Drakkar 2" basically, so this would be Drakkar 3? <G>

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Post by GhostGuest »

Hehehehehehe ok ..... Drakk 3 then <G>
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Dymurra
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Replying to Topic 'Testing major game additions'

Post by Dymurra »

Originally posted by Brad



There are several fundamental engine changes that I will soon need more than "spot" testing on.

Without getting into details, I would like to query feedback on what the best way to handle "large scale testing" is.

Specifically, if we create a player test server, how do we handle it..

1) Can players take characters back and forth? And if so, what do we do about bugged items, wacko exp and skill gains / losses, item losses/gains, etc. We don't have the manpower to even replace single items, let alone wipes, major dupes..

2) If we use COPIES of characters instead, what would encourage people to participate in the testing? Sure they will try it for a while, but what we will need is hard core play on the server.

3) How do we "not spoil" the "magic" of new changes, when they will have been played to death during a test process? (This has always been the one that bothers me).

4) How do we keep people from believing INTER test changes are tweaks/losses to their classes? (Example, we give barbarians +10 to hit on test to test it, but later decide it needs to be +5 or something like that, and the barbarian community barfs 8 pages of forum "you are ruining the class" messages)


I'm interested in your calm, rational thoughts on this matter.

Thanks,
Brad

Here is my opinion and experience.

#1 Never done on Beta tests. Testing is a copy or new character. Neither items or experience transfer. If you are actually making "engine changes" and not just beefing up areas for larger characters, then you will need a balanced player base. Making a new character might limit you to lower level characters. You could have people interested in testing send you a list of characters they would like to clone on the test server. You would have to pick a balanced player base from those applying for test server. This might mean you would actually need to assign someone applying to test with a higher level character to play a lower level crit.

#2 A real tester does the testing for the pure pleasure of improving the game. The testers also get the enjoyment of seeing potential new additions to the game. However you might want to "reward" players that log more than a certain undisclosed number of testing hours with a one time "rare item" or other type of bonus.

#3 and 4 would primarily be covered with a non-disclosure agreement, with testers agreeing not to reveal to non testers anything seen or done in testing area. The "magic" of a new area to those who have already tested it will be playing with their real characters. The non-disclosure could also cover an agreement that any tweaks are to test characters only. An additional thought to "not spoil the magic" might be to give test crits different names and avatars than they would have once it goes live.

These are just a few ideas that might help.

Yours in Life and Death
Dymurra.KORT
Last edited by Dymurra on Sun Oct 27, 2002 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Relic
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Replying to Topic 'Testing major game additions'

Post by Relic »

Being someone whos done beta for quite a number of games, heres a suggestion:

the initial part of the testing should be done with the full process of rolling up and setting up a new crit, as it should be testing the various aspects of compatiblity, functions, commands, including leveling, basic playability. When this aspect is finish, there is a "reset" where suddenly all the crits are accelerated in growth, to test the middle areas for balance issues, playabilities, speed of leveling, random drops....then finally another acceleration to the top end and again the same test. The acceleration of lvls part can be replace with copies of existing crits, but the initial process should be complete roll up as you are changing the game engine...unless u mean something else when u say that. Anyhow good luck with the process

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Post by Watcher »

Originally posted by Brad



There are several fundamental engine changes that I will soon need more than "spot" testing on.

Without getting into details, I would like to query feedback on what the best way to handle "large scale testing" is.

Specifically, if we create a player test server, how do we handle it..

1) Can players take characters back and forth? And if so, what do we do about bugged items, wacko exp and skill gains / losses, item losses/gains, etc. We don't have the manpower to even replace single items, let alone wipes, major dupes..


2) If we use COPIES of characters instead, what would encourage people to participate in the testing? Sure they will try it for a while, but what we will need is hard core play on the server.

3) How do we "not spoil" the "magic" of new changes, when they will have been played to death during a test process? (This has always been the one that bothers me).

4) How do we keep people from believing INTER test changes are tweaks/losses to their classes? (Example, we give barbarians +10 to hit on test to test it, but later decide it needs to be +5 or something like that, and the barbarian community barfs 8 pages of forum "you are ruining the class" messages)


I'm interested in your calm, rational thoughts on this matter.

Thanks,
Brad

Copying Characters would be the safest way and less headaches in the long run.
Other suggestions on the disclaimer:
(1) No guarantees of anything.
(2) What ever happens to you in testing happens, just report it and leave it to developers to sort out.
(3) Assume nothing that occurs on test server will be implemented in the production game.
(4) Blind Test on new implemtations:
for instance:
Barbarian A can only go to Area X to get the test weapon. He/she does not know what the weapon does if anything because this may be a weapon not meant to be implemented. A dud or a super powerful weapon that's totally unrealistic, your choice <g>
Barbarian B can only go to Area Y to get their test weapon. He/she does not know what the weapon does or does not do in its final form, because it may be a change that isn't implemented.

What this would require is as each player goes into the test machine they will be assigned a Tag or Team Number.

Could use Team A, B, C, D or whatever you need to do.

Can reassign testers to each portal if one is overloaded with a specific class.
(e.g. 10 barbs and 1 ment in Portal A. 8 ments and 2 healers in portal B)

Just post a list or have a class counter at each portal. Class portals may be simplier, then the mechanism just needs to count and shut down when proper number is reached. The portal will deactivate.

One you have the Teams assembled and testing. They can send results via special forum or email. TeamA@xxx.com or Forum Team A...etc.

That way, no other team will know specifically what the other one is talking about unless they blab about it of course and you can expect that <g>.

However, with several teams, no one will know what is actually being considered for the game.

Team A buys a halberd at the Team A counter; Team B buys a halberd at the Team B counter.

A little work to set up, but the actual item to be tested can be more closely examined while the other testers can be ignored, if so chosen.

I would highly recommend a testing manager to track the teams and interact between the players for issues.

That's my take on the matter. :>

Zakkath
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Post by Zakkath »

To echo a lot of other sentiments:

1. I agree that there should be no xfer of items/stats/exp from test to the live server.
2. Separate test character/account that will be wiped at conclusion of the testing.
3. Limited number of testers who must sign an NDA where violations result in being locked out of test.

I think there are merits to both having assigned test characters as well allowing play with cloned crits.

In order to be effective at testing gameplay/balance, the tester needs to be playing a class with
which they are very familiar. I haven't ever played a paladin in KoD so there is much less chance that
I could offer any meaningful advice regarding changes that might impact that class' development.

If we are not talking major engine changes and are just looking to find bugs in new game features,
quests, commands, etc. then class experience is less important.

I'm not sure that I agree new players are more likely to find random bugs by trying different actions.
Historically, (speaking from my time on MGPN), experienced players who have a lot of time spent
playing Drakkar have been quite handy at coming up with very inventive ways to circumvent intended
game restrictions. They can often have a better idea of what bugs/features have been present in the
past and where new ones are likely to crop up in the future. If you are looking for bugs in the FE (i.e.
finding actions that might crash the program) then I agree that the random actions of an inexperienced
user are more likely to hit the mark. But for testing back-end server changes I think an experienced player
would have the edge.

Also, a lot of us grew up in Drakkar in a time when not a lot of info was available on what areas were
best skill, what levels/skills/tactics worked best in various dungeons/lairs, how much coin that next
hp was going to cost me at level x, etc. A lot of testing involves doing the same thing over and over
again, keeping records and accumlating statistical data. From the short time I've spent in DZ, it seems
very unlikely that most newer players of the game would have any need to do that sort of thing since
information is no further away than a quick question in Channel 0. Lairs that used to take a finely
honed team (of 8) to beat are now soloed with ease or can be overrun with massive numbers of smaller
players, etc.

Bottom line is that Brad needs folks he thinks he can trust, and who want to test the new changes
or area strictly for the fun of testing and seeing it in advance of the live server.

Zak aka AnskierePARIAH
P.S. If anyone still has a copy of my old showcase hitpoint cost calculator could you send me a PM
please. I know it isn't valid anymore, but I've lost the source and would like to have a copy of the
program just for historical purposes.
Last edited by Zakkath on Mon Nov 04, 2002 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Ragnoker »

Ok, has been a lil over 2 weeks since Brad first posted this topic and I was hoping he would have revealed when and if any of these changes may be made by now. :sarc

I know he may have mentioned something in chat but I hope he realizes that all do not keep the DZ chat open. ;)

Any word out there besides player opinions ?


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Post by Brad »

2 weeks is nothing. haha. I'm still locking sysops up in the game for hours on end, i dont think you guys want in on it yet (smile)


Brad

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Post by Mars »

Yea

I hate being locked up, I'm the one that is supposed to be locking up others <G>

Mars

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Post by Ragnoker »

Originally posted by Brad



2 weeks is nothing. haha. I'm still locking sysops up in the game for hours on end, i dont think you guys want in on it yet (smile)


Brad
Ya, just call me impatient. :p

Just had my hopes high because I think you mentioned something about player testing and with all the other changes you guys have been able to roll through so quickly I thought maybe this one might be as quick or quicker. ;)

Ragnoker_PHNX :D

btw: I am sure no one will complain if ya loose the keys to whatever ya have Mars
locked up in :p
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Eons
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Replying to Topic 'Testing major game additions'

Post by Eons »

I think the best way of testing is by making everyone who wishes 2 go 2 the test server
say what race/class crit they would like 2 play....i think test crits should have max stats , plus the lvl(s) u r testing...u give em what the test is and they give it a go (u could have
a bldg that gives items needed 4 said test) run test and see what happens...
Have a form the testers fill out ( giving results of the things you want the answers to).

Ok i really dont know if just having 2 slots for chars would work or not, ie slot 1 is testing crit slot there for unsaveable but slot 2 could be savable? if so:

to keep ppl in the test sever they could have 1 crit that they can run around with 4 fun
the other slot would be the test crit.. The Test crit would be ever changing to your needs.

you could also give out prizes to the testers, (special item) for there nontest crit, or a crit on the reg drakkar server. You could also/or Discount there (silver/gold/gh) package.

The testers could be notified by e-mail the basics of the test you are planning
letting em know what class, race, basics of what you want tested, time of the testing,
length of the test period, if it will be group or solo play...ect. Doing so would allow
players to make arangement for the testing period or to let you know in advance
if they will not be able to make that test.

I hope this helps :) as i didnt read what the others had to say about testing.

The 2nd slot (their main crit so to speak) could give basic results of growth: time of play
where played, exp gained, lvl(s), skill, deaths. main mops faced. any problems faced/found while playing.

Also if u add a Multiclasses like : ftr/ment becomes a battlemage, ftr/thief is a rogue, barb/healer is a shaman then if a person wants after successfull compleation of testing (they can convert there (2nd) slot to that new multi class :)

Your questions:
1. A lot of problems trying to do it like that

2. Also disagree to this method as you need to know the starting chars as a base.

3. Allowing only 2 slots per account on test server where the 2nd slot is the players
own to play for fun will keep the magic

4. By having the 1st slot as the test crit will be a constant reminder that this is the
test server, where new ideas...ect are being developed to inhance the drakkar experance.
Last edited by Eons on Mon Nov 11, 2002 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Thiefy »

I like the idea of the portal/clone thing, where you go through and it clones your crit. This way, you can take both you larger and smaller crits to test different areas. You can explore the higher end areas, but also see how smaller crits would do in other areas, yet still have no effects in the "real" game play alts. Also, IMO, I dont think there needs to be any rewards really, like others have stated, just the testing of areas in advance, and the fact we're getting new areas to play in should be enough of a reward in itself.


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Post by Ragnoker »

OK, from the little knowledge I have from the reset yesterday ( 11/11/02 ) it seems that Brad tried to impliment his "Testing major game additions" to alt 2 for all to give it a try. :)

Sad thing is that it did not last too long and by indications I have received, a nasty bug emerged that could easily outbalance a scenario. :(

Seems that testing needs to be done with the "whole" game even though changes may only be made to one specific alt. Some of this testing I believe must be made by appointed testers so as not to cause the game to be out of balance and to minimize any sysop repairwork.

I believe ( I may be wrong ) that Brad does not have the resources to have an additional entire game available just for testing.

Here is a suggestion: ( hides behind the water cooler for the flames to come ) :sarc

Why not have a short ( I repeat a short ) game down time just so that appointed testers could go in and do a lot more thorough testing. Make sure you have parameters already determined so that the down time is minimized as much as possible.

Ragnoker_PHNX :D

p.s. If you do something like that, I think afternoons ( Eastern time ) would be best ;)
http://www.phoenixguild.net
"What -- Me Worry?"

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Doro
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Replying to Topic 'Testing major game additions'

Post by Doro »

Flame on it's way . . . .

That's my play time !

I am sure you will not be able to pick a time that won't upset someone.

Lets take a whole week out, backup all accounts, place new engine into game and run with current slots and be prepared for constant reboots and to be reset back to one week earlier.

Umm, I ssem to have been here before, IEN - Drakkarzone testing phase!

Doro___ASH
ho

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Ragnoker
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Replying to Topic 'Testing major game additions'

Post by Ragnoker »

I digress and agree with Doro that that my earlier suggestion just bites. :p

I think a lot of people would be more upset to not be able to play the game at all versus having more beta testing where crits would be rolled back after the testing was done. ;)

Ragnoker_PHNX :D
(Beats his head against the wall for even posting his earlier suggestion)
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"What -- Me Worry?"

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Mihey
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Replying to Topic 'Testing major game additions'

Post by Mihey »

Dear forum co-readers,

rest assured; I have taken care of Ragnoker myself :D

*picks the pitchfork and looks around for Rag*

Yo bro where art thou?
Mihey__PHNX

Brad
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Replying to Topic 'Testing major game additions'

Post by Brad »

I'm thinking of putting the nork2 changes up on all the servers on monday.

Keep me informed of any wankyness you find. Its looking pretty good so far.

Brad

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Rathe
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Replying to Topic 'Testing major game additions'

Post by Rathe »

Mars must be on vacation then! :)
-- Rathe_Rip

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