An appeal to Brad and sysops

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qmtu
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An appeal to Brad and sysops

Post by qmtu »

Dear Brad:

I am one of the players who started playing Drakkar since 1989, and have left and returned several times during that period, so I can say that I have been through the evolution of the game and community.

When I first started playing the game, it was exciting and new. This was an online multiplayer interactive game, at a time where there were very few, IoK comes to mind. We could interact with many players at once, while exploring the dungeon. We could chat. We could cooperate, and interact whether positively or negatively. The individual players evolved into a community, a microcosm of real live society. The replayability of this game is due to the community, passing information down by word of mouth, and by forming guilds to achieve a common goal.

In those days, we needed the sysops to help Brad watch the game, in case a bug occurs, or in case the game froze, and to enforce order in the game. In those days there were disruptive players, who would make the gameplay unpleasant for others. To name a couple, kill stealing, and floor thieving. Some players were so disruptive that it caused other people to quit playing. Therefore the sysops set up arbitrary rules, to minimize disruptive behavior.

Fast forward to today. The community has matured, and the disruptive players have either become bored, or forced out of the game by the community. The playerbase has shrunk to a fraction of the previous population. Most players now would rather help other players, than disrupt their play. In a game that is shrinking, but still holds nostalgia for some of us, we’d rather keep new players than chase them away. In fact, even if you set up a PvP server, most players would try it, and get bored and quit shortly, because they don’t have any players to fight against. Overall the Drakkar community has policed itself, and I think the playerbase shrinkage is not due to disruptive behavior by a few, but due to time, and competition from other online games.

Brad, when you created the game, you gave each account 4 character slots, to encourage us to try out the different classes. I really liked this, since each class has its own style, atmosphere of play, and strategy. A thief could hide and kill out of sight, a ment could kill from a distance, and barb can fight toe to toe. As the game population shrank, some of us created multiple accounts, so we could group with ourselves, and help ourselves. Most of us have gone through the grueling grind of getting to level 50, then 60, 70, then beyond. We have lived through all the scenarios, and done the grind. For me it took years to eventually make it to level 50. To have to do the same low level quests and grind the xp, for all 8 of my characters, would not enhance my gameplay or enjoyment of the game. I like the open ended game, so I don’t have to progress through a forced linear route to get to the end. I would play Mario Brothers if I wanted that.

Brad, you once said that as a creator, you enjoy creating the game, and seeing what the players come up with to deal with challenges, out of their resourcefulness. I think this is what everyone wants to see, as long as we’re not hacking the game itself, or being disruptive to other players. As parents, we picture all our childrenn growing up exactly the same way, playing the same sports, making straight A’s. We soon find out that no matter what we do, one child will progress faster, and take shortcuts, whereas another child will take longer to reach a goal. And they don’t like to do the same thing, play the same sports, etc. But as long as they don’t break the law, the best we can do is enjoy each of them, according to their gifts.

I still hear sysops make statement like this: “proper use of the 2 hex line of sight rule does not include you running off, using an AOE and then running back where the little crits are safely standing before the NPCs die so they get the exp/skill. They move in sight of the NPCs, or leave.” Or, something to the effect that you have to go through all the scenarios in sequence, in order to be able to get the best out of the game. These rules are arbitrary, and show that you are trying to mold us to grow our characters in the exact way that you or the sysop picture, in a linear fashion, at the same rate, and in the same fashion no matter what the class of the character is.

Brad, I respectfully submit that the time is over for the sysops to go around kicking groups of people off to make sure that everyone is sitting at the keyboard, or to tell people that they can only play in certain way. Most of us old players have more than 1 account, to compensate for the fact that there is no one to play with, and should be allowed to accelerate the growth of their baby characters by using the big characters. The bigger characters have earned the ability to help the smaller characters, and should, in the same way people coexist in society. Please stop the micro-management and let us enjoy the game, and use our imagination and resourcefulness to do so, as long as we don’t break the game, or disrupt other players. In terms of game age, Brad, this game has grown up. We wanted to mold our children when they are young, but when they grow up and go to college, we no longer force them to eat spinach, to brush their teeth everyday, or check to see if they’re reading with a flashlight under the blanket.

Sure the playerbase has shrunk since the 1980s. Drakkar is in competition with other, bigger games with eye candy. Some players have grown up and got too busy to play. Sure you don’t want us to grow up too fast, and reach the endgame and quit. But restricting our gameplay will not stop that. The ones who reach endgame may fly the coop anyway, but may come back with more content. Or, they may stay and help other players, or grow their own baby crits. But, the micro-management and arbitrary rules will drive away those of us who have not yet reached the endgame. Please, attract and retain players by adding new content, not by taking things away.

Thank you for reading, and I await the courtesy of your acknowledgement or reply. I would also welcome any comments or flame, to see what other players think.

qmtu

Squirepanther
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Re: An appeal to Brad and sysops

Post by Squirepanther »

This I agree with. Micro-managing is not necessary. We pay to play, leave us be. So long as we are not disrupting gameplay of others.

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Mars
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Re: An appeal to Brad and sysops

Post by Mars »

Do I care what order you play the scenarios? Nope as long as you meet the lvl requirements to get there and only cob and parts of NL have that.

Do I micromange? I sincerely do not believe so. Do I enforce the rules, yep, but not 100% of the time either. Most times I try to leave players be.

Do I get complaints from other players that cause me to look at certain things, yes.

The scripting and leeching rules were put in place for the betterment of the game.

Brad
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Re: An appeal to Brad and sysops

Post by Brad »

The objection isnt directly to scripting, its primarily unattended scripting.

In a game like drakkar, where your character's actions can adversely affect those around you, the VOLUME of "i got trained" and "He stole my pile" customer service requests make "AFK" scripting impractical for a small game like ours. Its for this reason ( primarily ) that we cannot allow AFK scripting.

As far as "leaching", what we have determined, is that players who do not "work" or "earn" their levels become very poor customers long term. They are unable to enjoy new experiences, because they never faced real risk, learned the proper combat techniques etc. When such a customer experiences unexpected events, they become very costly in the customer service department. This also causes game inflation, and dissatisfaction among those who actually earned their levels.

Traditionally, we don't even go seeking these things out ( we are part time ), they always arise because someone got killed, or a pile stolen, or something.. from someone ( or a group ) scripting.. Or an area is being overhunted. I'd rather have 6 happy paying customers than someone 6 boxing ( though I will take either (smile))

Brad

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Merlin
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Re: An appeal to Brad and sysops

Post by Merlin »

I think the general point of the post was, Qmtu has found a way to beat the line of sight rule implemented, by casting a AoE off screen the moving back on screen for the smaller guys, he see;'s this as no worse than casting fire around a corner, hideing behind a door, or even up the stairs.

Point is, Drakkar is so bugged out these days and there are so many unwritten rules we don't actually know what's a bug or feature.

If its not allowed to be done, stop people from doing it via disabling it, restricting it, removing it, dont just wait for someone to do it then send them a PM asking them not to.

Merl - one of the long timers who also comes and goes.
Elessar: karbeck is a sweety

Hwang
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Re: An appeal to Brad and sysops

Post by Hwang »

I agree with Qmtu, Squirepanther & Merlin.

Hwang

Lunatic
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Re: An appeal to Brad and sysops

Post by Lunatic »

I am turning my head twords the words of Qmtu, alot of key points I like. Merlin (thank you for that statment) I was lost at words from Brads comment as it brought new things into this thread, which i did not see in the innitial post.

Without thinking hard or getting into detail I agree with Hwang.

P.S. Hwang....congrats on poping your cherry.

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Migam
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Re: An appeal to Brad and sysops

Post by Migam »

I hope contrary points-of-views are respected as well... mine haven't been in past threads. It seems unless it's a Me-Too post, it gets flame or there is a childish accusation of jealousy; nothing could be more untrue. I don't play much now but I do read forums alot so decided to post. I likely will mentioned things not in this thread but they relate. If they don't... <shrugs>.

Paying doesn't mean you can do what you want even if it doesn't affect others. Selling gear for RL money is banned in most reputable games but it doesn't affect others. Exploiting bugs doesn't affect others either. Use of outside programs don't affect others even if attended and controlled. I'm not saying any of you said this or do this; I'm stating that they are limits in every game. All these are still against those games' ToS, the difference is that they are seldom caught until someone brags. Many things came to light in this game cause someone felt the need to brag and boast in dz... blame them.

For years, I've seen players in dz talk like the fattest wallet rules. I hope they miss their backpocket one day when they go to shove it back there. More money doesn't mean you're better, it just means you have more money. Too many posts threatening to quit when LoS was put in, when party exp/skill adjusted, to make sure you don't cheapen the game, shame on you. How can you say you respect the game and community then?

As far as making a game that takes everything in account... who knew that such a thing like VPC, etc. would exist and be used in Drak? It was a pain even just running 2 crits and a ramsink for me but new. Most of the multi-boxing was use of laptops and fast hands. Then came that outside program with 26 lobbies and FEs. Then Drakplayer showed with scalable FEs, all the cheats closely followed by a more infamous one that played for you while you watched TV and waited for a Mars check and I heard the player running it puts all the rest N/A. Seriously, they must have wanted to be caught lol. That's what killed the game and true competition; not coding.

I see remarks in forums that if Brad didn't want this or that, he should have coded for it... could he have seen players sinking to this level? Or players hiding behind walls leeching like to this extent? UD5 is one thing, Mormar a bit more. Players are trembling when any remark about not allowing MA AA to be 100% effective is made because they run many MAs powersweeping onhex and the little leech rarely aggros but gains huge and knows jack about the game. Well, would you allow my pally MS and thief Dozens do the same... please? If an MA got a magic foot that pistons out at selective targets, why not me too? So far, only healer's PWD was allowed to be that selective in party and sadly, that's not very effective later on.

Also, how do you scale a solo-friendly game when an Army of One (on x accounts) can move in and destroy everything for fast gains and skill? Then when it's made more of a challenge for a large party, solo players suffer. I cannot imagine going for exp79 when it takes so long, my thief cannot even cross a bridge without losing hide (and liminv dropped me to bogs) and tiers are learned at 79 or 80 ( I can't even buy it and learn it). So it's grow smaller crits or quit for me (with 104 gold months).

Add to that that the large parties finish new content too quick, whine then state they want more now or they will set account inactive til later. They should change it so that party gains are fractional and shared so it's not done superfast. I don't know how it calculates now but I'd take the exp/skill divided by the number in party times 2 (plus w/e adjustments you need for level) and that's that. Getting close to full gains per party member is too much. If it took 100 hits for one player to kill a crit, why should 5 people hitting it 20 times each get 80-100% each of the overall experience? They worked less! Gain less !! At least my method gives 200% gain instead of 100% solo. But no, cause then players cry Nerf! cause others reaped the benefits before. So just because it's exploited and discovered, can't change it?

HOWEVER, I do wish there was a way for growing your other 3 slots after you got bigger so they don't have to spend all this time growing. I know I pointed out that my pally and thief took 6+ years to get big however most of that time was pre-Mormar. Having them OG'ed (overgeared) isn't enough to shorten the time needed for growing alt crits. I know I'll spend alot less time on the other slots but I would love something that made it faster without having to rely on a huge guild, a player running 7 crits (wait, that's the same thing) so I can experience playing every class. But they will all hit a wall because the game had to be made harder (GDH+).

I wish there were a solo-only area, non-party instances, so a solo player could gain a little more for going it alone (or hell, just survive).

I thought qmtu posted long but I think I have him beat lol.
Starfire: There are two wolves fighting in each man's heart. One is Love, the other is Hate.
Ghost: Which one wins?
Starfire: The one you feed the most.
---Pathfinder

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Brad
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Re: An appeal to Brad and sysops

Post by Brad »

Migam wrote:I wish there were a solo-only area, non-party instances, so a solo player could gain a little more for going it alone (or hell, just survive).
Isn't that called challenge-aleria? ( smile )

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Mars
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Re: An appeal to Brad and sysops

Post by Mars »

Brad wrote:
Migam wrote:I wish there were a solo-only area, non-party instances, so a solo player could gain a little more for going it alone (or hell, just survive).
Isn't that called challenge-aleria? ( smile )
Very, very few solo players are found there. However, massive skill parties are

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Quaternion
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Re: An appeal to Brad and sysops

Post by Quaternion »

I think part of the problem with solo only areas is that essentially they just become places that are easy for parties. Perhaps if a solo area was such that it's difficulty was adjusted for party size. For example maybe have some of the following,

1. Enemies get enraged by the size of the party and hit harder
2. They increase their health
3. They use more discs
4. The amount of exp gained is appreciably reduced in line with overpowered parties

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Acaciam
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Re: An appeal to Brad and sysops

Post by Acaciam »

Is this a petition to allow cheating?

I think the sysops do a fine job.
If you have to question whether it's a bug or feature, you should ask.
In the above case, I'm sure Mars would gladly tell you one way or the other.

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Re: An appeal to Brad and sysops

Post by Lunatic »

Acaciam wrote:Is this a petition to allow cheating?

I think the sysops do a fine job.
If you have to question whether it's a bug or feature, you should ask.
In the above case, I'm sure Mars would gladly tell you one way or the other.

I do not see how anything I do is considered cheating, I am not using any outside programs to run the few in the UD 5 setting or playing the game a way it doesn't allow me.

They fixed the leeching problem mostly with the line of site (but yet i found a way around it). If it is considered cheating you let me know and then it can be fixed just like the line of site rule.

Even mars had said himself he trys not to inter-fear with us so....im not sure what to think

I <3 to use my brain around problems and other ways to make something more efficient and faster if possible.
More so now how hard the game is becoming.

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Mars
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Re: An appeal to Brad and sysops

Post by Mars »

Lunatic wrote:
Acaciam wrote:Is this a petition to allow cheating?

I think the sysops do a fine job.
If you have to question whether it's a bug or feature, you should ask.
In the above case, I'm sure Mars would gladly tell you one way or the other.

I do not see how anything I do is considered cheating, I am not using any outside programs to run the few in the UD 5 setting or playing the game a way it doesn't allow me.

They fixed the leeching problem mostly with the line of site (but yet i found a way around it). If it is considered cheating you let me know and then it can be fixed just like the line of site rule.

Even mars had said himself he trys not to inter-fear with us so....im not sure what to think

I <3 to use my brain around problems and other ways to make something more efficient and faster if possible.
More so now how hard the game is becoming.

We implemented a change. You "found a way around it"
is it wrong, yes. Please stop any way you find around the Line of Sight rule.

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Re: An appeal to Brad and sysops

Post by Martialarts »

I am not sure what to think I know I have to work 5xs as hard to raise my babies.. Not a pun here I sit at my keyboard all the time work hard at the game but now I feel why make other accounts when they give them away. Seems to me Brad that the buddy system never came true. Can't ever say I scripted never will I like to play just not much anymore except when someone asks for some help..

We have heard it all I agree with part of everyone's statement I just do not agree with the results. May seem a bit childish but I do want new areas and not ones that take an army to do. You don't see me in sdc2 I can not live there so why bother with it.

The game is dead or close to it you made all kinds of changes and the base has gone way down. Sdc2 is just a area that was put so far out there no one really does it except those with an army.. Go on make it hard make it impassable I am at the point of no return myself. I no longer find it fun or a challenge just impassable to grow because the base is not big enough to party up.. People are just to quirky they have there own worries and clicks.

Doing what your doing now has proved nothing except the base came back a few weeks then got bored and left again..

The Crazy help but are not the answer to anyone's question.. I will stop rambling for now. ps challange aleria is skill crazy cob is exp not good but its there.
The MA
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Jimbo33
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Re: An appeal to Brad and sysops

Post by Jimbo33 »

The current line of site changes are unexceptabul by KoD's current standards.Sure people may have been growing fast, power leveling and such, but im not understainding the problem. As long as people have fun isnt that the point? I strongly belive that this current game change has tunred many people away from the drakkar and they may never return. Its hard to compeat with 3D games like World of Warcraft and Everquest, and more so when you make drastic game changes. People like change but when they are put outside there comfort zone, they dont like it.Drakkar is not the game it used to be, many people use multipul accounts becuase they are forced into this (or retierment because of such a small player base). Its not the fact that we cant "power grow" any more, its the fact that we are forced to relearn what has already been programed into many of us for years.I can understaind these changes if there were more people to party with, and to help one advance in the game, but the simple fact remains that there just isn't enought players for that. Not everyone can affourd to pay for many accounts,and we souldnt feal like were being forced to do so.Please take our opinons into concideration, as you so seldomly do and put the game back to its original state.

Jimmeh

Brad
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Re: An appeal to Brad and sysops

Post by Brad »

Hey guys, thanks for all the feedback.

As we have stated earlier, we try to find the balance between allowing multiple play styles, and creating situations where the game is hurt by people never truely developing as players.

I'll continue to investigate the LoS rules ( and botting ) rules, to see if we can improve game experience by adjusting them.

Brad

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Re: An appeal to Brad and sysops

Post by finalwarrior »

I came back to this game after a year break to be totally disgusted by this line of sight rule. I just wish I hadn't paid for the three accounts before I new about this rule. I am discouraged to play this game because it takes several accounts to play in the high end area's. I no longer belong to a guild and have played solo with just my three accounts. I tried checking out the GDH area and it was amazingly boreing for the solo player. Thats when I realized I needed to grow at least two more characters of great size to have fun and check stuff out there.

Try hunting in GDH with a 60/34 barb and tell me it's not horrible. I don't want to join a guild and seems that I am forced to if I want to progress in game.

Come to find out the rules have changed with growing crits. Those 2 accounts will stay at lv 18. My big crit no longer has the ability to help my smaller ones, so whats the point?

I have always loved the game of drakkar since I started more than 10 years ago. Why change some of these things that were sacred? I have realized that drakker is changing and tomorrow I just might not like it as much as I did yesterday.

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