Riposte

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Trucidare
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Riposte

Post by Trucidare » Thu May 08, 2008 11:27 am

3. The Barbarian quirk Riposte has been corrected. The ripostes will no longer reflect toward the current target but will instead reflect back toward the originating creature, as was originally intended.

Ok so...this is a terrible idea. When I first was able to purchase Ripostes I refused to on account of being afraid it would make me retarget all the time. Now you say that was the original intent a year or more after the fact. Now that we know what we can and can not do you decide well I dont like you doing that so were going to try this. I often times turn off the Psi reflecting quirk due to it retargeting me and making me mess up. So now one of our best abilities is also doomed to be shut off for the sake of sanity. Not to mention the fact that we have created entire playing strageties based around the use of the quirk as we thought it was meant to be. I honestly believed we riposted on the targeted creature on Purpose to avoid the annoyance of switching every two seconds. So instead of leaving it the way it has been for ages it will be basically rendered useless. Why exactly?

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Darge
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Re: Riposte

Post by Darge » Thu May 08, 2008 12:57 pm

Trucidare wrote:So instead of leaving it the way it has been for ages it will be basically rendered useless. Why exactly?
It's good you mention this, not because it's true, but because rather than being made useless, the coin has flipped on what riposte unbalances. Instead of using zoos to damage stack for quick lair kills and huge exp hauls, I think we'll see people start figuring out this new riposte is able to provide much better skill gains.

But then, the logical problem with riposte hasn't been how it targets, but that it is a free #arg. If made to work with true regard to balance, it'd be a single or double swing cap.
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My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

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Omni
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Re: Riposte

Post by Omni » Thu May 08, 2008 1:54 pm

It's unfortunate that it took so long to correct and frankly it is not a real correction of the balance issue.

We are striving to correct bugs faster, but it does take time. I think the recent stream of old bugs being fixed that have been complained about says a lot about our dedication to resolving these long standing problems. Sometimes though, we have to fix the bugs you'd like to keep around too!

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Tirith
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Re: Riposte

Post by Tirith » Thu May 08, 2008 2:55 pm

kudos to the fix, as I can see many barbs will complain about it. this quirk overpowered barbarians, they could solo stand in zoos and kill quickly in the deepest levels of mormar, Did you all really think this was intentional? No, it wasn't and too many players used this as a means of growing their crits. Its abusive to grow your crit 50 levels entirely by leeching off a barbarian. This was a needed fix. Now all these new players who had it easy and got to join their guilds barbarian in mormar, MIGHT actually get to experience how the old players grew, actually killing creatures as a party in mormar, not letting one person do all the work. Thanks Omni!

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Re: Riposte

Post by Omni » Thu May 08, 2008 3:12 pm

It's brad's fix, I'm just the messenger on this one ;-)
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GuillotineAxE
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Re: Riposte

Post by GuillotineAxE » Fri May 09, 2008 5:08 pm

still think this is complete bs just cause everyone thats for it doesn't have a barb all the other class's have their +'s an now u take the barbs bonus's now u gonna cut down the dmg ments do with tss and tfs ? or u gonna cut down the rounds per divergent essence gives fms ? or u gonna just cut every class down to just deal the same damage as a healer? oh might wanna check out that dmg MA's do with their power sweep to especially deep in mormar ya i have more ideas for nerfing the whole game to but not worth it cause i know itll happen or if people say anything its not wut the people say as a group anymore its what marge and tirith want

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Teh_Cheat
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Re: Riposte

Post by Teh_Cheat » Fri May 09, 2008 5:38 pm

Neither Leif or myself emailed Brad about risposte, so you can stop with the
ya i have more ideas for nerfing the whole game to but not worth it cause i know itll happen or if people say anything its not wut the people say as a group anymore its what marge and tirith want

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Darge
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Re: Riposte

Post by Darge » Fri May 09, 2008 6:12 pm

Just because I agree with a change that suits the best interest of game balance in current and future content doesn't mean I pushed for it to be done.

For the record, MA's with powersweep in mormar don't do so well without haste and heal; barbs with the right quirks did absolutely fine alone, and still do.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

Terrel
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Re: Riposte

Post by Terrel » Fri May 09, 2008 7:23 pm

Forgive my ignorance...my barb isn't sizeable...

So I've got a zoo of 10 mobs on me, each with 20k hp. For the sake of ease, I always hit and riposte for 1k. I've got 200 hits and ripostes needed to kill this zoo.

With old riposte, if i riposte 3 of those 10 in 1 round, all 3 ripostes hit the mob i have targeted. So if each of my ripostes hit for 1k, the targeted mob dies quicker. The other 9 mobs are still full health. But now I only have 9 mobs alive..less chance of ripostes.

New riposte now...10 mobs, I riposte 3 again...targeted mob takes no additional damage, but now 3 extra mobs have 1k damage done to them. My main target dies slower, but the zoo in general dies quicker, because I have 10 mobs alive longer, so I get more ripostes than I would have otherwise. And, when main target is dead, the other 9 mobs are already wounded, so less hits needed to finish them off.

As I mentioned...I'm no barb. So what am I missing? Is this really a nerf to killing zoos in mormar?

(I can certainly see where Merkon, for instance, might die slower, but that's a different scenario.)

Thanks!

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Re: Riposte

Post by GuillotineAxE » Fri May 09, 2008 8:47 pm

i went down to mormar and attempted ur scenario i do not nearly reposte as much as i previous did nor does the zoo die at all as u say it does reposting one crit outta each round instead of adding another attack to the targeted crit makes the zoo take longer to kill since the damage is spread does not mean the zoo will die quick nor does it mean u will get more repostes the bottom line is barbs where changed cause all the other class's wheren't able to be the tank might as well make things fair an nerf allied aversion and divergent essence and theifs hide and healers heal and pallys blocking

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Teh_Cheat
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Re: Riposte

Post by Teh_Cheat » Fri May 09, 2008 9:18 pm

I see you deleted your second post.

You were in our guild so you know how he operates? Give me a break, Tim.

There are things that happen in the game not based on what Darge and Tirith say, but from other sysops and players too. You need to stop pointing the blaming stick, and just argue your point and not slander other people.

My opinion is that I don't know much about Barbs because I don't have one, but we all know this does not nerf them. Barbs are still an amazing class, and just because they have a harder time solo'ing Mormar now, does not mean they're horrible. They can do so much in the game. Other classes have class reliance when killing in Mormar ( except for maybe Mentalist, but since we never hunt with them I don't really know for sure. )

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Re: Riposte

Post by GuillotineAxE » Fri May 09, 2008 9:37 pm

so they take my post away when i don't properly slander a player and keeps urs how nice

well lately seeing wut reposte is like and playing other class's my characters size it is just like pallys parry quick and is pritty much a joke of a quirk

only + that it seems to have is messing with my movements anywhere with a crit that has a distance type weapon and yes i know it can be turned off like most other quirks

well i am sure they could have changed it 2 years ago and should have been delt with then like the theif backstabbing quirk its not to my knowledge to knowing it takes a lot of time but if it takes a lil while to fix a quirk issue especially one as big as reposte

mars " had nothing to do with the topic but was instead an attack directed at another player "

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Teh_Cheat
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Re: Riposte

Post by Teh_Cheat » Fri May 09, 2008 9:55 pm

I didn't slander you. I asked you not to slander us.

You make some valid points but the pally parry quirk is nothing compared to what rispote did. I couldn't stand in a zoo and attack one crit while the rest died.

You're right though, it really should've been changed a long time ago. I'm guessing they changed it now because of the mormar thing.

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Blondie79
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Re: Riposte

Post by Blondie79 » Fri May 09, 2008 10:04 pm

My problem is not exactly with Riposte iteself, although i dislike the changes but oh well...... The thing that bothers me is, when something isnt "working as intended" dont put it on a live server then after so many yrs decide it should be changed...people grow accustom to playing a certain way, sometimes its hard to adapt to new changes specially after so long. Skill gains from 35-38 werent "working as intented" but that got fixed pretty quick and now were left looking at ridiculous gains for serveral hours of hunting.. Why did riposte get left so long? There was also no mention of riposte being changed, that i can see, except the night before reset and changes were implemented, please more warning for upcoming changes or intended changes.

I dont usually post in forums due to the flaming wars they create but this is something i wanted to voice my opinion on not because i dont like the change, but because i dont like the way they were implemented or the fact they were left so long not working as they should be.

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Darge
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Re: Riposte

Post by Darge » Fri May 09, 2008 10:08 pm

Riposte is a retributive #arg, and can trigger on any to hit result except a 'miss' from an enemy.

It's easy to see how Riposte needed tuning; any trigger of it is a theoretical +100% damage (with 10/20 Enhanced Rage and at froth) and another +100% theoretical increase to vamping.

By comparison, parry is a retributive #attack, that can trigger on any to hit result except a 'miss' as well. In this case, it is not subject to the +attack/str bonuses from Pally strike foci, and as such the resulting damage is less than +50%, in theory.

Even with the change, Riposte still does the exact same thing, the only difference being the damage dealt cannot be directed at one enemy. This stops using zoos to quickly solo lairs, using other player's attack to trigger Ripostes vs enemies, and using large zoos to quickly gain exp with little to no party assistance; in normal lair encounters Ripostes effectiveness remains unchanged because the barb is typically only being attacked by one enemy.

As an aside, I'd put money on the person behind pushing this fix being a sysop; I know it wasn't John or I.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

Barbarella
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Re: Riposte

Post by Barbarella » Fri May 09, 2008 10:16 pm

That's drak for ya. Or is it brad? They hates barbs!!!

Me is going on strike!

Oh me forgot, was there a question for scholars in there?

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Darge
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Re: Riposte

Post by Darge » Fri May 09, 2008 10:28 pm

While we're at it, where's the outcry for Advanced Armor being nerfed. You know, the one that sealed the deal on pallies being almost absolutely useless top end when it got changed, despite being horribly broken?

I agree that this was extremely late in being taken care of, but then, I was also the one saying there was a problem from the beginning.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

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Blondie79
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Re: Riposte

Post by Blondie79 » Fri May 09, 2008 10:48 pm

Pallies been nerfed for a while, I never play mine anymore really cause i find her utterly boring and LS damage is ridiculous but hey we can stand in a zoo and look purty thats all that matters right?... and i didnt have advanced armour maxxed when it wasnt working as intented either so i cant really comment on that.
I was also the one saying there was a problem from the beginning.
I never mentioned your name in my post, so i dont see the relevance in your statement..my post was directed towards sysops/Brad hoping they would give us an answer on why it was left so long.

I've sent numerous Emails to Drakkarzone about a number of things that concern me with no reply, maybe ill get lucky and someone will answer...someday...In all reality im not sure why i am even voicing my opinion because the fact is noone cares...

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Darge
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Re: Riposte

Post by Darge » Fri May 09, 2008 10:51 pm

It was more a blanket response to what I perceive to be the notion that this is somehow a problem that was just recently brought to light and fixed accordingly. I wasn't specifically responding to you blondie.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

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Blondie79
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Re: Riposte

Post by Blondie79 » Fri May 09, 2008 10:55 pm

my mistake... hopefully sysops/brad will fill us in with regards as to why it was just recently changed instead of being addressed a long time ago

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Omni
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Re: Riposte

Post by Omni » Fri May 09, 2008 11:34 pm

The sysops have pushed this issue many times in the past. It has finally gotten corrected. We know it was long overdue and I offered an apology (see below - was one of my earlier posts in this thread).

Bottom line it was a grevious oversight that in the long term would cause an ever increasing imbalance. Things like this NEED to be fixed and sometimes it isn't fun. The long term health of the game requires it.

Omni wrote:It's unfortunate that it took so long to correct and frankly it is not a real correction of the balance issue.

We are striving to correct bugs faster, but it does take time. I think the recent stream of old bugs being fixed that have been complained about says a lot about our dedication to resolving these long standing problems. Sometimes though, we have to fix the bugs you'd like to keep around too!

Omni
Oh and you can all blame me - I'm the one who nagged Brad at just the right moment to get his attention on it. (Just so you know who to blame) <G>

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Re: Riposte

Post by Tee » Fri May 09, 2008 11:56 pm

omni we always blame you (or atleast i do)

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Blondie79
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Re: Riposte

Post by Blondie79 » Sat May 10, 2008 12:02 am

Thanks for the response..

Im not trying to shoot the blame at anyone, just wanted an answer ...

as far as class balancing goes....drak needs a lot of work in this area but this isnt the right topic for that...

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Migam
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Re: Riposte

Post by Migam » Sat May 10, 2008 6:20 am

Oh and you can all blame me - I'm the one who nagged Brad at just the right moment to get his attention on it. (Just so you know who to blame) <G>

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lol good, now I can blame you for loss of ChainBackStab and global warming!
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Ghost: Which one wins?
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Tirith
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Re: Riposte

Post by Tirith » Sat May 10, 2008 10:32 am

I told Al Gore that it was Omni, he just kept saying Manbearpig.

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