Barbs!

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Darge
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Title: The Raging Storm

Barbs!

Post by Darge »

Image
Image
Image
Image

I didn't get the tier round timer up on the first set, but it's a one round difference.
Full zerk, EC/SoN up. Anyone see the issue? I hope you do. Just something else for you to look into after GDH brad.

Edit: For the record, the missing ih that isnt in the 2nd mormar pic was drank to compensate for the 1k dmg or so i took while pasting the before screenie into paintshop. I didn't use a single ih in the course of fighting three crits.
Last edited by Darge on Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

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Pepma
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Post by Pepma »

NERF!

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Post by Atom »

should probably list all stats, lvl skill and quirks to get a real feel for what is wrong with that picture. Im guessing its probably quirks.

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Darge
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Post by Darge »

I took liberties to hide those mentioned categories for a reason. Anyway, the problem is multi-fold. A: Enhanced rage, (which I will say is the only quirk on this barb worth noting, and it's not even at 20/20) for the love of god, get rid of this damn quirk. I mean, hey, I'm sure the barbs are ecstatic that they can now fury EVERY round if they have enough ranks in it, but the fact that at the high end the minimum vamp per hit is 400 or so and they can fire off four a round is just unbalancing. BIG mistake here, you get a class that can go toe to toe with RiftGuardian without breaking a sweat at 70/34, and given enough time, solo it. (I tested it, so don't bother disputing) B: The tiers basicaly make the issues more radical. Gaze of the frothing to wussify an enemies to hit and melee damage (with Gaze of the Crazed to fire off if multiple crits come at you), Enraged Cry to add 150 dmg per melee connect, +10 con/str and +5 attacks (that's extra vamping too!), and Sweat of Iron for that added kick of damage abs. C: Vamping, it just gets stupid and is by far one of the most balance detrimental abilities in drakkar.

And I'll take it a step farther and explain why even more quirks would make barbs even more ridiculous. Detrimental healing: Oh, barbs can eat psi type tiers now? Well isn't that special. Make it only work vs non-tier psi. Deflective Fury: Yay, as if the thousands of hp wasn't enough, they can get some defense to make up for one of their fundamental class drawbacks. (Wanna fix that one? Make barb armor at froth absolutely zero, deflect at froth a natural ability of the class, and Deflective fury merely serve to improve it, lvl 10 req on that quirk anyway)

In short (hah, irony), it has little to do with quirks (well, the RG statement does, and the ability to handle 3 enemies in m20 on hex at once rather than 1 or 2 could be slightly attributed to enhanced rage) it is a fundamental issue with the class. Possible fixes? The above paragraph has one possible fix. Another would constitute wiping vamp from the game (it'll solve any barb scripting issues to boot!) IMO, the class has been given enough, the time has come to take.
Last edited by Darge on Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

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PieterPost
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Post by PieterPost »

Give it up leifers.. I dont think you, me, or anyone could get sufficient community backing to get much of anything done, as the forums are pretty dead nowadays.. :(

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Atom
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Post by Atom »

EASY FIX, dont change the barb quirk, except change the fact that now it is basicallyt 100% fury when its 10/20 make them max it to 20, damage doesnt need to be changed, decrease vamping to compensate for the quirks, make it vamp only on 3/4 hits per round, then put in a quirk that lets barbs get increased vamping, dont remove, its a vital role that the class has and will never be removed. If you really want them fixed that is, not completely ruined by doing something so drastic.

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Darge
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Post by Darge »

It's a vital role for a very simple reason. Barb's have no substance to make them on par with other classes, thus auto-abilities are given to them to compensate. Vamp wouldn't be necessary if other non-balance breaking abilities were put in, or vamp was put at a reasonable level. Saddly, I don't see the former happening, so I'll take the time to focus on other ways relating to the latter.

The damage barbs do has of late shot upwards at a rate unequal to their maximum hp, so with that in mind the end results to balance barbarians must be, in my opinion, one of two things. To wipe the ability as it is, and instead, give barbs a natural damage abs based on level to compensate, (you know, that way all the barbs who enjoy hitting 2 buttons over and over don't have to expand their realm of gameplay much farther) starting at lvl 1. This would function in the same way the psi-resistance for barbs does and might be something like 2 or 3 damage abs per level in the pre-primal realm. The second way would be to keep vamp at 15% or so, but cap it off at 200 hp regen per connect. And hell, if you are so adamant about vamp being so vital, allow a quirk to bring it to 250 (to be honest, I feel 300 might be pushing it, but whatever.)

I have no big problem with the damage results of Enhanced Rage (although I find the carry over to secondary skilling of guarenteed charging four swing rounds lame, that is a different topic.) All the other classes received specific damage booster class quirks in the form of either punishing blow or unique abilities, with regards to melee and psi. The issue is with the carry over to vamp. If you want to complain that without vamp at all barbs would be gimped, I would argue that for once they would have to be like any other class, and rely more heavily on ih's and healers. All in all, if you want to say the things I have shown and said this barb can do are balanced in regards to other classes of similiar size, then there is no point in even continuing this conversation.
Last edited by Darge on Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

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Drewstr
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Post by Drewstr »

I wish I could solo RG with little fear and few ih's...
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Post by Atom »

Wheres the SS of barb soloing RG if thats the issue here? why even post mormar pics?

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Darge
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Post by Darge »

Why don't I screenshot all the other content a great majority of the game hasn't seen also.

It's not the main issue, it is a side effect of one of the main issues.
Last edited by Darge on Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

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Post by Atom »

so the issue is that they can kill crits in mormar 20 with ease with top end gear and loads of quirks, in 23 rounds for a single npc, while ments do it in about 8, while still managing to live. What is the issue here, that top end gear is actually good?

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Post by Tirith »

a ment in top end gear can solo rg as well, without the aid of quirks, soloing that lair takes way too many hours, there is a non issue seeing as how it would take too long to solo and could only be solo'd if you already had the gear from the lair, why would you want to solo?

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Darge
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Post by Darge »

with top end gear and loads of quirks
Neither are necessarily needed and the barb does not have 'loads' of the latter.

Image

27 rounds, Enraged cry up only, no ihs. Do I need to start showing pics of doing it in all non primal gear, or do some floor of mormar completely nude? Or will you admit there is a problem and get out of the 'I'm a barb, so I need to be uber' mindset.

Oh, and lets see the screenshot of the ment doing that.
Last edited by Darge on Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

Brad
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Post by Brad »

Okay darge.. Work with me here.. You have shown me a SYMPTOM... the real core issue is.. what is the PROBLEM. I've been struggling with this for quite some time.

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Post by Darge »

PROBLEM: I don't know if it is the sole issue of the class, but I think one of the core issues is the vamp ability brad. It seems to be one of the few constants. I'll admit that the vamp ability isn't totally harmful, and for the traditional areas we have seen barbs hunt, such as undead city (and for a starting barb in forge and bog), it is almost vital. But when you move into a more party emphasized scenario such as nameless land, the lack of a cap on the vamp ability coupled with the sudden spike in damage from primal skills and items, makes for a unbalancing combination. I think about it terms of healingtouch for paladins. If we had no cap on that skill, we would be akin to barbarians, but by its 1020 hp limit and full round use, we cannot rely on that ability alone to heal us.

SOLUTION: There is one very easy way to alleviate this as I see it. Keep vamp at 15% or so of damage dealt, but cap it out at 200 hp regen per connect. Then put a quirk in for mid ranged barbarians that would typically move into nameless encounters (ie. lvl 30-40) to increase the cap to 250-300 (I still have a gut feeling 300 might push the envelope a bit, but it isnt 600 like we can see occur now.) If you give barbs an inch, rather than a mile, you can still make them a class that can do well solo, but still need to rely on a healer, ih's, or class specific prots to an extent, rather than stacking a macro for hours. I can't say it will completely fix all barbarian issues, because I think the simplicity of the class is both its saving grace and hinderance, but it might be the first step in weighing the pro's and con's out. And if it turns out I'm horribly wrong, I reckon it wouldn't be too hard to revert.

I think alot of the focus of the topic has also shifted to my mormar pictures, and for good reason I guess. I was slightly concerned by the enormous to-hit boost barbarians have (attributed to their goddly attack and strength stats), and the effect it has on secondary skilling (a real fun passtime of mine) when compared to other melee (paladins, and to a lesser but still relevent point, martialists). I have an idea or two on that as well, but unless you wan't feedback on it, I'll focus on primary balance.
Last edited by Darge on Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

Brad
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Post by Brad »

I kinda like the quirk idea.

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Post by landlubber »

There is no problem with barbarians and vamping. So the class can regenerate damage via combat hits... so what? If the barbarian gets mobbed or faces a few staff npcs at once it'll be a struggle. Any class with 70+ gear can go alone down to m20 and deeper and face off with a few crits at once and have a fair chance at succeeding.

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Post by Darge »

Any class with 70+ gear
You might consider looking at the last picture I posted, or, as I mentioned earlier, do I need to post pics of naked soloing of mormar?

And furter, if there is no problem, I'm sure it wouldn't be too much of a problem to let paladins regen 80% of their hp uncapped with healingtouch right?
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

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Post by Pepma »

If you look at the newest screen capture there, He is not using 70+ gear. Nor is he using IH's. I don't even want to think about how many IH's i'd use to bring down 1 crit on m20 if i had 3 on me (while using rapidpunch)..

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Post by Teh_Cheat »

If I went down to m20 with the gear that Crush is shown wearing, even with my maxxed advanced armor, shield mastery, and 5.10 melee avoidance would go through a sack of ihs in no time.
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Post by landlubber »

In that last picture, Crusher's crit is fighting one m20 ma npc (how challenging!). As a healer, I could fight an m20 crit in non-70 gear and kill it without using an IH... eventually... and if no other npcs happened to wander in.

A paladin can wander around m20 and never get hit.

A ma can kill m20 crits in the fraction of time a barbarian can.

and so on...

Why compare different classes? Paladins aren't barbarians and barbarians aren't paladins. Barbarians don't get multiple target attacks, barbarians don't have a paladin's defense, barbarians can't parry. Sure those abilities may not be all that useful all the time but they certainly allow for a lot more options than what a barbarian has.

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Post by Teh_Cheat »

You're a healer, of course you don't need IH.

If were talking no top end gear, and I don't use my shield ( because of shield mastery), then I would get hit on m20 a pretty good amount. ( I'm also a Longsword user )

Also, you didn't mention how long it takes you to kill an m20 crit.
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Darge
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Post by Darge »

A paladin can wander around m20 and never get hit.
A ma can kill m20 crits in the fraction of time a barbarian can.
Reading/viewing previous posts must not be popular today yayo, and as a paladin, john's statement is pretty accurate. So apparently you know nothing about what you are saying. Excellent... Oh, and so you know, a Martialist without an fm on m20 won't kill in a "fraction of the time." Infact, looking at rough %'s a capped martialist ran about 30% connects with rp. That's called class dependence. Guess what barbs lack for the most part?

Now I could have posted a picture of any other npc on m20. Why did I choose an ma? Because I'm trying to make the point that he can do it in gear a that a newly primal would have, not what type of npc. Yes there is a difference in hp from levels, but the skill differential can be made up save sk 35. Most incoming barbs will also have hundreds of qp more than crusher, and that can make a much more drastic difference than hp overall when you look at quirks like Riposte, Deflective Fury, and Punishing Blow. Also, I'm glad your HEALER can kill an m20 npc without using a single ih. If you could not, well, early retirement might be best choice.
eventually... and if no other npcs happened to wander in.
Maybe I should have posted the screenshot of crusher vs the two axe weilders then?

Finally, I'm not comparing two classes. What I did do, was compare two abilities of two classes that both have the same basic function.

I don't mind people naysaying my ideas, but come on and at least give some hard evidence as to why my idea would fail or the vamp ability as is does not present a problem.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

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Post by Teh_Cheat »

ImageImage

Even with Advanced Armor maxxed at 20/20, I still get hit and I had a full sack of IH when I get there, and ended up with that when I took the screen shot, which was only about 2 minutes. In another 3 minutes I would have had no IH left.
Last edited by Teh_Cheat on Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by landlubber »

Ok, so a 70+/35 barb can go down to m20 in semi trash gear and not use ih and kill a crit without IHing. How is that representative of some problem? If you think that the hp difference between a 70+ barb isn't a significant factor then I'm not the one who knows nothing (or if you think that hps are the only difference between a 70+ and a 55 for that matter). You're trying to imply that a "newly primal" barb can go down to m20 and do well. Are you using Enraged? Why didn't John bother with using his shield/barrier? You guys are being rather selective in trying to prove your case.

If you think the problem is that a "newly primal" barb can solo m20, how bout providing some proof of that instead of logging on someone else's much bigger crit and play it for a few hours and then asking for that crit to get nerfed?

I know exactly what 70+ paladins can do in m20 and deeper, and its a lot more impressive than the pics you've posted.

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