Barbs!

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Teh_Cheat
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Replying to Topic 'Barbs!'

Post by Teh_Cheat »

I also know what 70+ Paladins can do in Mormar because I am a 75/35+3 LS Paladin, but did those 70+ Paladins that are so much more impressive than me wear Top end gear or substitute some things. My guess is they didn't because there isn't a reason for someone who has the gear not to hunt with it. Please don't imply that I don't know what I am doing because I haven't said anything offensive to you.

I didn't use a shield/barrier because not everyone has Shield of Honor.

Retested with SoH/BoV on, more armor blocks etc, but in the end still go through a great deal of IH in a short amount of time.
Last edited by Teh_Cheat on Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Replying to Topic 'Barbs!'

Post by Atom »

ok all tiers affecting defense should not be used, or those affecting npcs offense, for example gazed of the frothing.

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Post by Atom »

Last edited by Atom on Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Darge
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Post by Darge »

I never said that a newly primal could go down to m20 and kill there, it is an impression upon the class as a whole, and the dungeon. I did say, that with some primal skill, a barb of around the newly primal level could do better than most other classes in mormar. If you can't see the issue in the fact that vamp is overpowered to support the circumstances I placed the barbarian in, then you will never see it. The lack of 5 attacks, Enraged Cry and Gaze of the Frothing will not greatly hinder a barb early on and who knows, maybe with quirks these days, the barb will be able to solo labrat, researcher. and foreman for himself when he needs their items. Given certain quirks, and a few tests/solo's I've done, I dont see it as too improbable.

Anywho, since the opposition is so baseless in their arguements and will not give any hard evidence, I'll just play an ace.

Image

Image

Battle Cry, Sweat of Iron, Gaze of the Crazed, no ihs. Axe- 31 rounds, Staff, -34 rounds.
Any lack of gear offsets the to hit disadvantage of a barb of newly primal status (if you assume sk 34 vs 35), and the hp loss from no bl's, hp/ep bracers, and kodiak fur is a fairly decent ammount. The halberd does not have a significant ammount of bloods in it either.
If you think the problem is that a "newly primal" barb can solo m20, how bout providing some proof of that instead of logging on someone else's much bigger crit and play it for a few hours and then asking for that crit to get nerfed?
You think I'm just logging this crit on and noticing the issue after a few hours? Laughable to say the least. This topic is the culmination of months of play.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

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Post by Atom »

You cant just go and say that having no gear on and being skill 35 is the same as being skill 34 with gear, simply because it is not. Now you took quite some time in setting up that test there with your naked barb, when I saw it you had trouble getting halberd off the ground with 2 crits in the room, both of which didnt apear in the images above because a) they are hard to hit and b) they killed you numerous times as i watched.

Image

I know for a fact that quirks play a large role in what you are seeing here. Quirks definatly help out everyclass that ive seen, and depending on the class they gain them in certain areas. Ments gain huge damage increases as well as armor boosts, barbs get to hit quirks which have been conveniently overlooked in this case with a naked barb. I dont know about you but when I play my 70/34 barb and all the time i spent growing him from a lvl 1 barb, that mormar has different types of npcs and spears as well as mas can be quite difficult to hit. Hunting in full gear, with literally 20 qp, 1 in acc and 3 in ehanced damage on mormar 20 I do not fare as well as these tests you are showing, maybe because I dont go through the prep work to make them seem as if barbs are really unbalanced. They kill slow, given a good number of crits, they get killed, its as simple as that. Its obvious to me why the tests are being done against crits of the type which are easiest to hit in mormar as well as only 1 at a time when no gear is present.

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Post by Pepma »

Of course there is a little control being done in these tests. That's how testing is done, in a controlled envirornment. Does the test still showing him killing two NPC's types? One of them being the type that from all of my hunting in mormar does the most damage (staff crits). Without the use of a single IH? Yes, quirks pay a large part of that, he never said that they did not. Could you see a paladin going up to m16 at 70/35 with only a weapon and being able to kill and live without an IH? Even if someone drug him exactly the type of crits he wanted? Even with 12 IH's? Or how about an MA? Or a ment? with no IH's?

Even tho this test is "controlled" it still shows a little unbalancing, that shouldn't be overlooked.

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Post by Darge »

They didn't appear in the images above, because every time I had tried for a one on one, my original goal, 2-3 extra crits wandered in. The extremity of the test should be quite obvious to you though, that with 0 gear based x/x adds a barb using non primal disks does have a reasonable chance to kill. The reason I chose axe and staff was because I wanted to show that the barb's vamp could handle two of the hard hitting npcs. Yes, ma's and spears proved to be the hardest two types to hit in m16, given the circumstances. What you also fail to mention is the one hit per round that these both possess. That I managed to pull the feat off against what is IMO the hardest mormar npc (staff) should merit something.

Yes, crusher has his accuracy line of quirks maxxed, as will many incoming barbs to mormar these days, once again, accurate comparison. I did not list this with enhanced rage as relevant earlier, because most people will max the acc line first. If you really want to know, the relevant quirks to these tests are worth about 250 qp in all, which you know is not that much I hope. Ask yourself whether that little bit of quirking should warrant the results displayed here. I haven't "gone through prep work" to simulate these tests.
barbs get to hit quirks which have been conveniently overlooked in this case with a naked barb.
The same quirks any melee class receives. Once again, the 'convenience' of the quirk being overlooked was based on an assumption of mine. A ment also does not get any class based armor boosts, only the same Enhanced Armor quirk every other class can get.

The original two sets of screenshots were literally the results of 5 minutes of work, and involved no deaths. In the final tests, I had taken things to the extremes, and needed to force a one on one encounter to merely show the extent of abilities. It sets an impression of what the barb can do in upper mormar where to hit is lower, armor is lower, and attacks per round are lower. If I had wanted a more chaotic environment, I would have gone up to a 3 or 2 hit per round floor where multiple crits could be handled. What I have shown is that the barb can unleash his maximum damage attack, maintain maximum hp without ih or healer, and he does it faster than any other class in the same situation.

Also, I'm fairly curious as to why, by this point you (atom) have not provided actual evidence that a 200 hp regen vamp cap, and 250-300 through a quirk, would actually hurt the class tremendously rather than balance them out. Or is it that you just can't stand the healers?
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I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

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Post by Atom »

Why should quirks be necessary? this game is getting so screwed by the need to pay. Another thing too, what is so damn important with the fact that they dont use ih, THERE IS A NL IH SELLER, i mean common, without the aid of a ment it would have taken you 10 years to set up that test on m16, ments could probably kill more crits naked in mormar, just because of the tp disc, who cares the number of deaths. What you are saying is that barbs never use ih, and its a load of crap, you have given specific situations where you did not use ih in the course of killing 2 npcs, but died numerous times in setting it up, which for some reason doesnt count?

I have died on m16 fighting a single staff npc due to the fact that I was relying on vamping hp and autobalm, both of which were no help when I was getting hit for 1-2k and not vamping hardly any hp due to the fact that TO VAMP HPS YOU MUST HIT. A fact that isnt as big of a deal when u are talking about quirks and a skill 35 lvl 70 barb with well over 40 attacks per round. Take any barb who is not crusher, and you will not see the same results, I am saying this simply because brad does not need to change the class he just needs to change your "guilds barb".
Last edited by Atom on Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Atom »

Originally posted by Pepma


Of course there is a little control being done in these tests. That's how testing is done, in a controlled envirornment. Does the test still showing him killing two NPC's types? One of them being the type that from all of my hunting in mormar does the most damage (staff crits). Without the use of a single IH? Yes, quirks pay a large part of that, he never said that they did not. Could you see a paladin going up to m16 at 70/35 with only a weapon and being able to kill and live without an IH? Even if someone drug him exactly the type of crits he wanted? Even with 12 IH's? Or how about an MA? Or a ment? with no IH's?

Even tho this test is "controlled" it still shows a little unbalancing, that shouldn't be overlooked.
Those pictures dont show anything, they show a single round where a npc is targetted by a naked barb and him healing some hps. Go majorpool up everytime u need to heal and i guarantee u can do it without an ih. It might take a while and be a ridiculous idea but hey thats how testing is done, in a controlled environment.

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Post by Darge »

*sigh* If a class doesn't need to use an ih, they don't need to use a healer. Wake up and realize that this whole damn topic is rooted in class dependence and balance.

Your lack of to hit is not my problem, it's a result of your weapon choice. And don't even come at me with something about that, because I know gs like the back of my hand. The numerous deaths before hand do not matter, because AS I HAVE SAID AND WILL NOW SAY AGAIN, *that's your cue to listen ok?*, it's a reflection on the dungeon. Barbs dont go to mormar naked. It's a damn fact. You take a barb with gear appropriate to their size, and put them on a level suited to them, they can do just as well as crusher did on m20, and can do on m25, assuming they have the appropriate skill.

But hey, maybe your barb just sucks, eh?
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My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

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Post by Atom »

Originally posted by Darge


*sigh* If a class doesn't need to use an ih, they don't need to use a healer. Wake up and realize that this whole damn topic is rooted in class dependence and balance.

Your lack of to hit is not my problem, it's a result of your weapon choice. And don't even come at me with something about that, because I know gs like the back of my hand. The numerous deaths before hand do not matter, because AS I HAVE SAID AND WILL NOW SAY AGAIN, *that's your cue to listen ok?*, it's a reflection on the dungeon. Barbs dont go to mormar naked. It's a damn fact. You take a barb with gear appropriate to their size, and put them on a level suited to them, they can do just as well as crusher did on m20, and can do on m25, assuming they have the appropriate skill.

But hey, maybe your barb just sucks, eh?
rofl finally got u to admit it, so brad do u see a problem now? Its not everybarb its just this one case, well rather all END GAME crits. Go take any end game crit with TOP NL gear and put them in a location where they arent suited to be and they do well. Maybe lvl 70-75 should only be able to gain exp on m25 since 16 and 20 are aparantly too easy.

And this issue with ihs, barbs are one of 2 classes that can heal themselves well, its always been this way, other classes have to use ih, and your just now saying this?
Last edited by Atom on Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Darge »

You know who you remind me of? An Fm named freddie who's gs held him back. Sweet irony.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

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Post by Atom »

Originally posted by Darge


You know who you remind me of? An Fm named freddie who's gs held him back. Sweet irony.
Gs dont hold me back, It has equal damage table to the Hally, in fact, its actually even got better blocking with max bloods o_O Its probably the fact that I have only been in game 3 months since the introduction of the dukes, and have yet to gain any real quirks, so I am in a different boat, the one that everyone is in untill they are lvl 70 and complete duke quest.
Last edited by Atom on Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Darge »

I'm tired of arguing and such at this point. Brad, give it a try, maybe it'll work, maybe it won't, and if it doesn't wipe it. Who knows, maybe the barb class is just inherently impossible to reach a happy medium.

And for the record, crusher does just as well on 25 as he does 20.
Last edited by Darge on Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

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Post by Atom »

Oh and lets remember here, I never said anything personal, it was darge, and Mars I am asking this thread be locked before any children say anthing they regret.

And for the record, atoms gs is bigger than darges gs o_O
Last edited by Atom on Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Atom »

Originally posted by Darge


You know who you remind me of? An Fm named freddie who's gs held him back. Sweet irony.
Freddie is the shit, tripple spec GS f/m, nothing better than that, I dont know what you are talking about but he is the envy of many and the friend of even more. A player who probably will never play again due to reasons other than chosing GS as a weapon.

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Post by Fix »

Darge build a level 70 barb and get through levels 35 to 55 without the paladin's ability to parry his way through dornar. And get through 55 to 70 where you can't even walk in mormar without getting wasted. My barb is 66 and can not hunt m-20 without a paladin to bait and a healer to heal. My point is build your own barb and test. I don't think you would complain then.

Ugg

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Post by Darge »

I wonder how many more barbs will jump in and post while entirely missing the intention of this topic. Class reliance, yay. Even at the high end, there are classes that have it.
Last edited by Darge on Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

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Post by Pepma »

Originally posted by Fix


Darge build a level 70 barb and get through levels 35 to 55 without the paladin's ability to parry his way through dornar. And get through 55 to 70 where you can't even walk in mormar without getting wasted. My barb is 66 and can not hunt m-20 without a paladin to bait and a healer to heal. My point is build your own barb and test. I don't think you would complain then.

Ugg

Its easy, go visit cobrahn, i hear ud5 is nice (yes elance sucks, but still VERY do-able, just skip those parts). I hear banditkins are nice exp 50-55. As for mormar don't believe it was designed to be a solo place anyways, so party it up! (not many classes can instantly go in mormar and solo 55-70 either. and if they do it'll take much longer then partying) Make use of the abilities you have you'll get further :)

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Post by Crusher »

Easy as it may be, it's extremely tedious. Grinding to 25 to get Fury, then once there. UD4 to get 30. UD5 to get 50.8. I did this in a time where there was no Dornar. Once I managed level 45, NL came out. Then I see every Paladin and his ment racing his way to level 55. A level a day doesn't sound to bad now does it... Barbs took 2-3 days of 25-30m an hour while a Paladin made 100m an hour. Only to be capped because they'd yet to figure out the Primal quest. They became godly with the Lorsulan plate and it stuck at that. Several got to DL and farmed for Killer weapons. Forge was soloable by a Paladin. Barbs could barely manage. Once Barbs hit 56, it changed a little. They could solo with 2-3 mobs instead of just 1 or 2. Mormar was insane to think about, Barbs were nothing at level 55. Couldn't hit much, and when barbs did, still outdamaged by the tanking/armorstriking Paladin. And Paladins could do it solo. Haste came along and turned Barbs into a power house only for a few months, but even then, Paladins still outdamaged Barbs.

By the way, not many classes can go into mormar and solo 55-60, but Paladins can. GS MS Pallies can on M5. Once 60, get Shield of Honor and move your way down.

That's class reliance?

Barbs 55-70 REQUIRED Paladin, Healer, Ment, then maybe a Barb. Before Brad changed it to a 4man party with no XP cut, Barbs had given up trying to get in groups. After, it made it easier to get in, but Barbs were still as useful. Now, 71-75. It seems I can solo like a Paladin can. Doesn't seem like anything is wrong to me.
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Post by Darge »

Easy as it may be, it's extremely tedious. Grinding to 25 to get Fury, then once there. UD4 to get 30. UD5 to get 50.8. I did this in a time where there was no Dornar. Once I managed level 45, NL came out. Then I see every Paladin and his ment racing his way to level 55. A level a day doesn't sound to bad now does it... Barbs took 2-3 days of 25-30m an hour while a Paladin made 100m an hour. Only to be capped because they'd yet to figure out the Primal quest. They became godly with the Lorsulan plate and it stuck at that. Several got to DL and farmed for Killer weapons. Forge was soloable by a Paladin. Barbs could barely manage. Once Barbs hit 56, it changed a little. They could solo with 2-3 mobs instead of just 1 or 2. Mormar was insane to think about, Barbs were nothing at level 55. Couldn't hit much, and when barbs did, still outdamaged by the tanking/armorstriking Paladin. And Paladins could do it solo.
This is the game of a year and a half ago. Before quirks. Before mormar armor was reworked and the skill glitch was fixed. Before the segment got a few other changes that has made it significantly easier. Apples to oranges.

I also know a healer that had regurlarly hunted m1-5 for rings while lvl 55. Class reliance in his case is represented in that he could stay alive with alot more ease than other classes, but with the damage healers put out, it took more time to kill. Balance.
Haste came along and turned Barbs into a power house only for a few months, but even then, Paladins still outdamaged Barbs.
Barbs could outdamage. It required a barb of equivalent skill though (ie, not sk 33 barb vs sk 35 pally). With this short addition, vamping was also the problem if you might recall.
By the way, not many classes can go into mormar and solo 55-60, but Paladins can. GS MS Pallies can on M5. Once 60, get Shield of Honor and move your way down.
Yes, I did do m5 solo almost immediately after I made primal, but that is in part due to the superb blocking of excallibur, and constant parry, msing. Even then, I still died and was not invulnerable. As an fyi, experience doing that is good, but not nearly as good as say hunting m10 at the same size in a party. For the record, SoH is not an instant god mode tier. Even using it I could still take a pummeling depending on the area and gear/skill/max blooded killer have all proven to be more effective from my experience.
It seems I can solo like a Paladin can.
If by this you mean, outdamage, outsurvive, and do it all with little attention paid, yes. The difference inherent in this is that with my class armor and quirks, I am a defensive crit for the most part. If I want fast killing, I must either rely on a ment for haste, or another big end damager like a martialist (which must in turn rely on an fm for good to hit and a healer to keep them alive while rp'ing.) Just because things at the high end are "everyone is uber" doesn't mean "let's chuck class balance out of the window." Letting things go haywire now will only roll over to any new segments or content, and since quirks are only level dependant to a certain extent, it is an issue that is not purely lvl 70 and up.

Tedium is NOT difficulty.
Last edited by Darge on Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

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Post by Crusher »

The segment changes did very little to Barbs as a whole. The armor fix allowed me to hit about 3 levels lower than what I had already been hitting on. Capping at about 19 instead of 16. Quirks allow me to hit more often at lower levels, ending up that 21 is about as low as it will go. So, no, not Apples to Oranges. 5 levels more that what I was already hitting before, when Paladins can hit more often at the same levels, for more damage. However, their survivability is in not getting hit.

Talking about outsurviving, outdamaging, with little attention. I ran down to M16 just to see how I did. According to your posts. Without RG/NL, M16 should be cake. Contrary to what you showed, it was not. 3 Mobs (1 staff, 1 axe, 1 mace) on me and I AB'd 4 times in the first mob, Staff first as it posed the highest threat. Took about 3 minutes to kill with the frequent blocks. The mace and axe, I had no problem with for the fact they were doing 300 damage per hit to me, while only hitting about 50% of the time. But then again, why should should it be difficult for someone over that level. So, I ran down to M22, the level with the imp looking mobs. I had a good bit of trouble hitting even an axe mob, and it was outdamaging me with each hit, AB'd twice before twigging out without a notch. Sounds like class balance is working.

The problem with current barbs is that they get gear equivalent to the other classes of the same level. Barbs were never supposed to have high armor, just a ton of health and absorption to be able to fight to Vamp it back and forth between life and death.

Tedium isn't difficulty, but it can be compared. However, misunderstanding the concept might lead you astray.

Man 1 makes $20/hour patrolling a mall to keep it secure, working 12 hours a day. Not hard, but tedious.
Man 2 makes $40/hour working at a construction site, working 6 hours a day. Hard, not tedious.
You'll never win... PLEAD INSANITY!

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