Barb Changes Feedback

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Brad
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Barb Changes Feedback

Post by Brad »

I'm looking for honest, balanced feedback on the recent barbarian changes.

(Especially from primal barbarians using the abilities)

These should be based on OBSERVATIONS you have DIRECTLY experienced, either through hunting with or playing one.


Please start your messages with the following:

1) Either NOT A BARB in the first line or
2) [LEVEL] BARB example: 68th BARB

(So we can place appropriate emphasis)

Thanks,
Brad
Last edited by Brad on Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Doro
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Post by Doro »

40 BARB - can level up some more.

nm
Last edited by Doro on Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ho

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Poldarn
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Post by Poldarn »

61'st barbarian.

I love this change. nearly enough for my return to the game actually. Barbs damage were so nerfed before, and now, we are starting to get tough again. i mean, before we had a MASS hp advantage, and nowdays paladains and ma's and other well looked after classes, make that difference in hp look like nothing... because the hps are getting so high that it doesnt matter if we have 1.5k more. The haste, well, at my level im told im getting 55% chance to use haste each round... and im loving it. im thinking, we're dealing too much damage, but then when i compare us to paladins and ma's, i believe we are where we should be. the sorta damage im dealing, enables a 1 min 9 second solo of chipuda, 2 min 29 second solo of warden, and 3 min 15 second solo of uther, (he ih'd 1 time, so 2 full healths of him). of course, its with haste though, so not a real solo.

if there is anything you actually want answered, let me know.
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Post by Poldarn »

Actually, to be honest, i think one thing about this haste is unfair.

Vampiric Healing. im dealing mass damage now, im vamping lots. more swings, more vamps. i was able to stack against researcher being the bait, and play WoW at the same time... and it wasnt just researcher in the room, was 2 npc's too.
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Post by Poldarn »

[19:15:17] <Zul|Sleep> badinferno: 7:11:17 pm
[19:15:17] <Zul|Sleep> badinferno: 7:14:53
[19:15:22] <Zul|Sleep> thats for 2 healths of uther

3 mins 36 seconds. sorry.

(clarifying)
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Fix
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Post by Fix »

Ugg level 59 barb

Well I like the change especially considering the disadvantage we have had in nameless land. I am at 45% but I really feel like I am well hasted. First day we got haste I went in and killed a levi hasted. Was pretty fast but my MA (45/30) does it faster unhasted. Sorry I wasn't timing it.

Rest of the times I have used it have been in party on lair hunts. The researcher hunt seemed to go faster but there were other hasted barbs there as well and much bigger then my barb. I still have trouble hitting researcher so haste does not help me much in that hunt.

I couldn't solo lori before but I think I could now with haste. I duoed him with a level 29 barb and we had no problem. But this seems fair seeing as pallys solo lori now for yp pots.

I doubt I could do a 3 min Uther lol.

Anyway my feeling is that haste just puts barbs on a more even keel with Pals. But our defense still sucks and we have all the problems inherent with a zerking barb i.e. uncontrolled rounds which prevent us from drinking ih and cause us to target friendly characters to the point where I would rather skip trying for the kill shot rather then hassle hugging someone in the party.

Haste is nice but I would only use it on lairs. For regular hunting in mormar or forge I am still the same disadvantaged barb I was previously.

Fix

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Post by Fix »

P.S. I really think 51 is too long for a barb to wait for haste and too long for him to get 100% at 70. I think if it started at 41 at 5% and ended at 60 100% that would be much fairer to barbs. It would give many who have given up on their barbs incentive to get big.

Ugg 59/31 barb

Fix

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Post by Poldarn »

it is very likely i was off on my first time of wardens.

i just did two tests, under same conditions, here are the results...

badinferno: 3 min 51 seconds

for the second attempt...

badinferno: that took 4 minutes 10 seconds

for the first attempt.
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Post by Esper »

Not a barb

I'm a ment, so I'll put this from a ment's perspective. I'll compare some of Poldarn's data to my own.

4 minutes is what it would take for level 70 ments to do wardens. If a barb is doing that much damage at level 61 with a 55% chance of haste, what will happen when they are 70 with a 100% chance of haste? They'll outdamage ments, a class that focuses only on damage.

A 5% chance of haste per level after 51 seems too high to me. Knock it down to 2.5% and a barb at level 70 (assuming that they can hit crits accurately) will still do damage similar to a ment's at level 70 (assuming that they're not dealing with crits with high fire/ice/energy prot)

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Post by Poldarn »

61/32 barb.

I Agree with Esper.

ugg, i believe we are unbalanced now. i believe 5% is too high, and i think 2.5%-3% might be a fairer figure. As a barb with 0 quirks applied, i am dealing phenomenal damage compared to that of a large mentalist, i am not too far off. i am much smaller, yet still dealing on par, if not higher than a huge ment, and furthermore, they are quirked. if they were my size, i would blatantly thrash them as a damage machine, and ments are meant for damage and nothing else.

this, is not appropriate. Fix... no offense intended, but you are way out on your request, if anything, we need to be brought back into line with a small nerf to our percentage.



Zulnoth - 61/32 barb.
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Darge
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Post by Darge »

Not a barb

I'll simply give a damage comparison to what zulnoth (poldarn) gave for chipuda.

Capped greatsword paladin, 23 UNHASTED rounds to solo chipuda (didnt have a stop watch handy).
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Post by Stormwind »

Not a barb

Keep in mind, while ments have very high damage output, they have no stat losses and minimal aging while accomplishing this.

Hasted barbs, pallies, etc all will suffer stat damage and aging as a cost.

Something to consider.

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Last edited by Stormwind on Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Brad »

Also please keep in mind we are TRYING this. Right now the numbers look way too high,
thats why i'm gathering feedback here and in email. Its important to be open and honest about it, and we will work it through. Also, as apermanent solution, a class shouldnt rely on a detrimental ability to make them fun (IE haste)

As people have stated, the real issue with barbs is that they are boring. Some combination of a boredom reduction and a damage increase is the eventual goal, i'm just pushing things here to the limit to see what the outrageous extreme would be. (Obviously, from looking at the logs, the vamping is insane right now )
Last edited by Brad on Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by landlubber »

Why are ments and paladins the standard by which to compare barb damage? What about the elephant in the room that rp's all these lairs for a fraction of the time?

EDIT: I would've deleted this but it was responded to quickly. This isn't meant as a suggestion for nerf, rather a justification for letting other classes slide up a bit on the damage scale. I see no ma's complaining that they're overpowered while brad continues to make adjustments to let them RAPIDPUNCH more easily, on top of their other high damage abilities.
Last edited by landlubber on Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Darge »

Because ma's only get that amazing damage increase once they have completed mormar and received their reward. Ma's must also now heavily rely on f/m's as they advance downward. Against ma skill based lairs, its still possible for a paladin to pull agro away from an ma who has finished mormar once in awhile (this was pre-quirks) and before hand it was no contest with the paladin keeping agro almost all the time.

Edit: forgot to mention that also there are only two ma's i know of that are capable of the damage i'm mentioning
Last edited by Darge on Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Fix »

Ugg 59 barb
this, is not appropriate. Fix... no offense intended, but you are way out on your request, if anything, we need to be brought back into line with a small nerf to our percentage.
I am not seeing the damage that you are reporting. But I will do some times on my own. No I'm not going to solo wardens.

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Post by Fix »

Ugg level 59 barb

Ok did levi with my 31/29 pal and did levi with my 59/31 barb. Both hasted.

Pally was using improved LS.

Barb was using +9 str hally (Only fair since my pal can't get killer ls til 55)

The rest of their gear was similar.

Pally's time was 4 min 50 secs.

Barb's time was 4 min 16 secs.

So there was a 34 second difference in the barbs favor. But since he is 28 levels and 2 skills higher then my pal I think that could explain the better time for Ugg.

I play every class in the game. All are over level 30. Most are over level 40. I don't have time to test every crit to compare but I get a good feel for the kind of damage they can do. I say barbs are not overpowered with haste. Sure they are closer to being more balanced. If a hasted barb can do a 3 min Uther then a hasted pally with similar gear can as well.

Fix

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Post by Pepma »

Fix, your not looking at it long term, just how your seeing it now. the barbs doign most of these tests are not level 70, the one posting most of his results is level 61 (so thats 55%). Generally most other classes won't see much of a damage increase as they level from 61-70 (providing they are already skill capped). So if a 61/34 barb (don't think zul is 34) and a 61/34 pally test damage. And the barbs is a little higher or the same, While the barb levels to 70 his damage output may nearly double, while the paladins will not get much higher then it already is.


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Post by Fix »

Ugg level 59 barb
Fix, your not looking at it long term, just how your seeing it now. the barbs doign most of these tests are not level 70, the one posting most of his results is level 61 (so thats 55%). Generally most other classes won't see much of a damage increase as they level from 61-70 (providing they are already skill capped). So if a 61/34 barb (don't think zul is 34) and a 61/34 pally test damage. And the barbs is a little higher or the same, While the barb levels to 70 his damage output may nearly double, while the paladins will not get much higher then it already is.
Barbs can't even start getting 5% haste til 51. Pal's can haste all thier life. To me 51 levels are long term.

I don't berate MAs for thier awesome RP damage. They are wimps til skill 28 and then they get RP. I figure if a MA goes that long being a wimp he should get his reward.

Pallys started outperforming barbs around level 30. So now 21 levels later a barb can begin to outperform pals by a little perhaps. Not by double for sure even at level 70.
I figure if a barb has to wait 21 to 40 levels before he has some parity with Pals then he deserves to get a little extra damage. If he does get extra damage.

Fix

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Post by Elessar »

This is the cobrahn scenario all over again. Barbs got bored and never grew above level 35 for 5 years in cobrahn. They were given arg and that balanced them, but the class was still boring so no one grew one. Deathsasquatch came out and the top 2 barbs in the game were level 35, even though there were level 50s of every other class at that time. Barbs were given king robes, and GK2 weapons, and their own playground to exp in, and then people were willing to tolerate the boredom in order to be uber. And you had 10 level 50 barbs in 6 months. They were clearly overpowered compared to other classes at level 50 in cobrahn.

The game expands.

The exact same scenario is playing out again. Barbs lag behind all other classes in level because they are boring to play, they are given more and more help, finally when they are given enough help to overcome the boredom someone will cap one out with all the top end gear and .. surprise surprise.. they will dominate over every other class.

The future if we continue down this path is going to be a capped out barb with 7000 hps and uber gear soloing the Riftguardian by stacking hasted arg and vamping 2000 hps every round. Is that really "balance"? Is that where we want to go?

The real issue IMO is that the class is boring, and unless they are made clearly superior to other classes, everyone will choose to play the less boring class or quit. The real issue that needs to be address is the boredom, not the balance.

So how do we make a class that just stacks B and Arg less boring?

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Post by Tranquil »

I dont think the problem in cob was that barbs were given some uber level 30 gear, I think the problem is that no other classes got anything near that quality, that they rightfully desearved. Of course, this was told to brad and dragged through the forums probably 20 times and it was (surprise) ignored..cob is still an unbalanced mess because of this, and what elessar described is probably going to happen all over again in NL..

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Post by Fix »

Ugg level 59 barb

Elessar there is no question that barb's are out of balance in nameless land. Boring has nothing to do with it. I for one find barbs challenging and not boring at all.

As far as cob goes, yea they sucked until they got sassy. I had to hunt in cob with big yeti til that lair came in. I died alot. Healers and ments could out hunt me wearing ninji. Yes I admit sassy is uber gear. But what sassy has to do with hasting barbs who are very much underpowered in nameless land at the moment, I don't know. I can't bring my sassy to namleless land.

Fix

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Post by Poldarn »

im telling you fix, as did brad... barbs are not at a stage of balance at this time. if you think they are, please dont hesitate to give yourself an uppercut. also, for testing with a +9 str hally, give yourself a second uppercut. we are talking about a high end change, at least use high end weapons. how does your puny pally even come into this? right noiw, vamping is an issue, and the percentage of our haste acceptance seems a bit unfair also. if we could take haste 100% at 70, i would simply put, *rampage*. im skill 32, yet i deal incredible damage at current, and even though randomness is involved, it was still equal to that of a capped ment. how is that fair? im 61/32. Brad, as you said, you're asking for honest feedback, and i feel i am giving that. if you need anything else, dont hesitate to email me, as im not really active anymore... *Redacted email*

I'll try keep a watch on this thread also.

Thanks.

Zulnoth____SIN
Last edited by Poldarn on Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Tranquil »

Originally posted by Fix
But what sassy has to do with hasting barbs who are very much underpowered in nameless land at the moment, I don't know. I can't bring my sassy to namleless land.

Fix
Just trying to establish that a repeat pattern of what happened with barbs in cob wouldnt be a good thing.

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Post by Fix »

Ugg level 59 barb
how does your puny pally even come into this?

becuase my puny pally matched my barb almost in time. Who says a primal pally can't rape as well as you? Have you compared?

Fix

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