Barb Changes Feedback

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Brad
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Post by Brad »

Keep this thread going as we work with the class please.

Trying a couple ideas out from user suggestions on today's reset. Will be adding more.


I actually did like the earlier comment about "Single Target Meleer" (as defining the barb).

Those of you too shy to post, please continue to email.

Looking for good feedback here guys, thanks.

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Hawk409
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Post by Hawk409 »

Why is it that you seem to always include negative effects when doing stuff for barbs brad? 3 of our tiers have negative effects aswell as hurting healers, ments, fighter/ments, the new attack you just added causes the barb to lose afew lvls of zerk.
maybe thats not so bad, i dont think it will be used very much if it stays like that.
think you can do something for lvl 35+ barbs in nl? maybe a new ability for them, maybe a new fur that blocks descent?

you seem to always put stuff that is for lvl 51+ when there are quite abit of 30+ barbs that can give great feedback if givin the chance.
my barbs 33 with nl for anyone wondering..



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Post by Crusher »

Just tested the New changes, Cleave is a good start, but the 100% chance to zerk down to Crazed is retarded... I wouldn't mind zerking down half a level everytime I used Cleave, that way I could stack zerk up, then cleave down to just out of control, rezerk a few levels, then start cleaving again. that way it's 2 big damage hits every 3 rounds. If cleave was hastable, it would be 2 rounds. Cleave, Cleave, Zerk up. However, 12.5k Prone damage for a single hit was nice, but what happens to actually zerking? Have it where Cleave can be used at the end of a round? Arg, Cleave, Arg, Cleave, Zerk. Or with haste, Arg, Cleave, Cleave, Zerk. However, Zerking would get a barb killed, they rely on vamping hp to live in zoos. Haste at low level of zerk? Hardly useful, No vamp, no fury, low HP, Hard to keep that level of zerk, not worth the hastle.

So, I'm trying to say, Have Zerking up and Cleave as Hasteable features. As a hasted, barb, he should be able to (with | marking the rounds). | Cleave, Arg, | Cleave, Zerk |

Or if barbs didn't want to use Arg, they could | Cleave Cleave | Zerk, Cleave | Cleave Zerk | which would give 4 cleaves in 3 rounds

Maybe Cleave should have a chance depending on level to arg just after the cleave.
Last edited by Crusher on Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Brad »

Just to be clear, its not designed to be something done every round. Its an alternative to arg arg arg, where, as a strategy move, you can chose a hard hitting attack with a greater chance of hitting, to "arg arg arg" at regular hit/damage levels. The downside is, to restore your rage you need to zerk a couple times afterwards.


Good feedback though, thanks.
Last edited by Brad on Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Darge
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Post by Darge »

Having zerk as a hasteable feature at 51+ for all levels of zerk wouldn't be too bad given these changes really. Simply disallow the ability to haste arg, it made NL, and the game for that matter, WAY too easy in the time it worked. This way a barb can rapidly re-attain frothing and fire off another cleave attack. Alternatively, what Hawk says has merit. Losing zerk should really just be replaced with a cool down timer on the ability, while it would remain a full action.

Oh, and 50k possible damage in 3 rounds is wildly unbalanced Crush.
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Atom
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Post by Atom »

take out haste for all classes in nl
cleave is a weak attack, a nice idea, but 2 rounds to get back to froth is stupid if it doesnt do that much dammage, should be increased by 4-10x if it cant be used every round and disables a barb for 2 rounds and doesnt vamp hp, ...takes 3 rounds of cleave to kill a banditkin on avg and using arg i can kill them in 2-4, and with cleave i have to zerk back up so it takes 7 rounds, it should probably be 100% hit rate too, or if its blocked it wont cause u to lose zerk.

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Post by Crusher »

50k possible damage for a barb would be nice. Considering Hally Paladins do more than that, but I'll take your word for it.
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Post by Brad »

Originally posted by Atom

...takes 3 rounds of cleave to kill a banditkin on avg and using arg i can kill them in 2-4, .
I'm not getting your numbers at all, even with your character. How many swings are you getting on an arg typically?

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Post by Ztinktoof »

Cleave Feedback:

Level 59 Barb, 6 points in Enhanced Rage vs
Mormar 1 Single Axe wielding mobs

Killed 4 mobs:
2 with berserk, berserk, cleave
2 with arg

Cleave: 45 to 57 rounds to kill
Arg: 13 to 19 rounds to kill

Notes: If the results were closer, I would have killed a few more mobs. But the disparity is so great, it is pretty obvious after a few samples that cleave is seriously lacking.

Basically, cleave is suffering from the same problem that afflicts pally Pierce - not enough damage and armor penetration in the single swing/3 rounds cleave to offset the 3 to 12 swings/3 rounds of arg (especially when you factor in enhanced rage which really boosts the odds of 2 and 4 swings per round).

For pally pierce, the extra +str and +atk boost for the single swing pierce comes no where near approaching the damage, even with armor blocks factorered in, to offset the TWO swings/round of maxstrike.

Also, I once got a meassge "you summon innner rage" or something similar during a cleave. Fluff or does it signal something special happening?
Last edited by Ztinktoof on Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Brad »

Its good data. Keep in mind however that I'm not looking for an "every round" being better type of attack. I'm looking more towards something you would go "A cleave here would finish this guy off, or xxx or yyyy".

More of a finishing move type of thing.

Your right though its too much of a penalty, i'll play with it some.

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Post by Crusher »

An attack that can only be used once per monster, while damage depending on the damage done/taken from the monster. If the monster does 10k to me, and I do 50k to it, I can attack the monster for as much as the monster did to me, but being capped at 1/4th of what I did.

Or, for cleave, changed the dezerk thing to 1 less "increase rage", but have it where it does more damage as the NPC is closer to death.
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Post by Ztinktoof »

Ah, a finishing move would come in handy for grinding as it would help stop the barbarian from charging after a fleeing mob and into a larger zoo.

Another way to look at the data is it took 13 - 19 cleaves to finish off the monster compared to 15-19 args. So a single cleave is doing damage comparable to single arg attack that has multiple swings.

That wouldn't be enough damage in a single round to pick cleave over arg as a finishing move.

If you cannot figure out how to tune the damage to make it a finishing move players will use without trivializing content, is there any way to add a debuff effect to cleave?

Like "disorients" the monster and thus reduces it chance to hit or its damage for x number of rounds?
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Post by Brad »

Actually thats funny, i was just looking into what debuffs i could use. An agil debuf maybe or something like that.

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Post by Crusher »

Looking at Cleave, the problem isn't the damage, it's just not in tune with how Barbs work. They work off of Rage/Zerking. And cleave removes that. It messed up barbs because they don't zerk up in the middle of fighting. So, Cleave can't be something that is used for "extra" damage, in which I'd like to see it. While thinking about it, Cleave would be nice if it had a 5 round hidden cooldown. It can be used twice in 2 rounds to remove 4 levels of zerk. For every round of cooldown left, it will remove 1 level of zerk. That way overdamaging is bad, but it gives something else for barbs to do. It could even decrease the barbs own armor when used for the next 5 rounds, slowly going back to full armor. Doing it twice, would double the armor decrease. Hitting armor wouldn't activate cleave's timer/dezerk. Or it should double the decrease in armor of the opponent. Maybe even blocked by weapon would decrease the chance to hit/damage of the opponent.

Even now, it's not a useful skill. The time involved and 90% chance of getting killed isn't worth it. If my ideas are involved, it would put a good bit more strategy in the attack. However, armor would need to be an issue on some future lairs that need to be killed. Think of a barb like an opposite of an F/M. Either a Barb or FM to help them hit.

By the way, do check if the Armor reduction is put in before the Cleave hits or after the cleave hits. It seems the first hit doesn't hit as often. It might be me tho.
Last edited by Crusher on Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Pipes87 »

Maybe you could put in different levels of cleave. The barb chooses which level he uses and the higher the level, the more damage but the more zerk lost. You could also put in something to make it more like a finishing move like you want it, so the barb can only use it on the last notch, last 2 notches? something like that would allow you to control when the barb gets this boost of damage. This kind of makes sense because maybe the barb sees his opponent is near death and gets pumped a bunch because his opponent is so close to death that he flings himself into a giant final attack against his opponent but afterwards he is a little tired and needs a couple rounds to work himself into his frenzy again. So like i said earlier, maybe a last notch or last 2 notches limit on when cleave can be used and then have it almost be like 4 different discs. #1 is like #cleave 1 at orc. Cleave 1 would maybe do like X150% damage but at the loss of 1 level of zerk, then you have #cleave 2 at orc, which would do like X250% damage or something but you loose 2 levels of zerk. Obviously the multipliers to damage are just made up numbers as i don't know what would be balancing but just numbers to show the idea. you could also make the different levels of cleave only be usable as you advance so maybe you get cleave 1 at lvlX and then cleave 2 at lvl X+10 and cleave 3 at lvl X+20 etc. Just some ideas i had on how to make this finishing move work and trying throw in my own 2 cents on how to possibly make more options for the bored barbs
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Post by icawn »

i agree with atom. i wont use it unless it's 100% to-hit. it would be useful for deep mormar where i cant hit beans..or for such bosses. but its even blocked there too much and i cant take the tedious rezerking. it's a nice addition but it's not useful at the moment.

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Post by Ztinktoof »

Some additional comments on the latest cleave:

From testing the damage appears to be less than hitting on 3 or 4 Fury swings.

Factor in the fact that I fury almost all rounds due to quirks,

have just as high a chance of Cleave to be armored blocked as any Fury swing,

and have to waste two rounds not attacking to zerk up,

makes Arg, on balance, a better finishing move, attacking move, just about anything move. >g<

Adding a debuff to a finishing move is not notably useful, since, theoretically at least, the debuff would be applied to a corpse.

If it is a short duration debuff, and after playing with it was impossible for me to see the effects of any debuff, is the debuff worth giving up 2 potential fury rounds of damage to rezerk? I don't think so.

To echo Icawn's comments, perhaps if it had a 100% chance to hit, it would find a use in the deeper parts of Mormar or on tough lairs.

Or perhaps make sure it only works at full zerk and have it be the equivalent of 12 Fury swings. So it basically takes 3 rounds of Arg and compresses it into 1.
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Post by phantomchg37 »

bar·bar·i·an (bär-bâr'&#275;-&#601;n)
n.
A member of a people considered by those of another nation or group to have a primitive civilization.
A fierce, brutal, or cruel person.
An insensitive, uncultured person; a boor. See synonyms at boor.
[French barbarien, from barbare, barbarous, from Latin barbarus. See barbarous.]

bar·bar'i·an adj.
bar·bar'i·an·ism n.

I have been gone for awhile and getting ready to come back. I came across this thread and started to read it , wanting to get info on my class changes. I have read all the ideas and pros/cons of what Brad is trying to do to make the Barbarian class "Fun" so I looked up a definition and posted what it said *see abouve*.

IMO I think most who play barbs solo alot and will party to help others or get the gear they need. I like playing my barb, I play it slow not really trying to get uber quickly as I know it will come. I like to have fun and try to play a barb like I have read they are suposed to be in fable and real life.

I think a barb when enraged goes nuts and loses their mind and will attack anything friend or foe, that is what makes them dangerous, they get stronger and feel little to no pain as their rage increases. They will use anything to attack, weapon, clubs,rocks, dead bodies, limbs off of bodies or even them selves.

You now are asking as to what this has to do with this thread, well Brad was looking for Ideas and there are some good ones here : like running into a zoo and pushing them , droping your weapon and picking up a dead body to use as a weapon , jumping on an enemy when they are knocked flat but Barbs also swing wildly and Hit more than one target at a time - including friends. They rage unthinking and get stronger so they should do so in the game - as you increase your rage you loose your control and can do ANYTHING - like pick up a dead body randomly or anything off the ground or run into a zoo of badies and maybe just maybe we could get that feature while berserked, TOTALY random, you could be in a zoo and next thing you know you are running into the middle or after a bad guy and you can't control it or know when it is gonna happen - that would make for fun never knowing when it will happen.

Oh well that is my 2 cents and I know it is not worth it but that is how I feel. Thanks for your time and looking forward to getting back into the game.
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