Barb Changes Feedback

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Darge
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Post by Darge »

I'll throw some flame bait out to the masses.

As barbs grow, and with the release of NL, it seems that the once staunch enemy of all that is magical has grown a bit more fond of it in his learnings (even more so with haste affecting arg) An idea i mulled around for a good week or so when cries were introduced was, "what if barbs sort of became druidic in nature." By this, i merely mean that they gain a nature oriented spell of some sort, or quite possibly a self buff ability (much like a paladin or ma's self buffs) that affects their weapon in a way, where different buffs affect crit types in different ways (ice crit, undead, fire crit, poison based [swamp crits], dragons, etc.)

Other ideas are such like, being able to click a skill that can make a proning weapon not prone, or the opposite, a skill that has the ability to prone a crit even if you get an armor block, and lastly, a skill with a pop-up bar like illusion that you can select an element to boost saves against, while suffering double damage against all other elements. All of these skills in their own right with aging penalties to them

Look at every other class in the game, and then look at barbs. Ask what is the main difference. The answer is that barbs do not have skills, or rather a variety of them, so maybe its time brad look at the long winded "barb idea" posts of yesteryear, and implement them after being tuned as necessary. At this point, it may feel like barbs are being "pallified" or "ma-ized" but when all is said and done it would most likely add longevity to the class. Merely allowing barbs to haste wont fix the problem, all it will do is tape together the broken shards of a class that could be fun, yet at the same time, not the top dog.
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Post by Brad »

Actually, i've read the barb sections pretty carefully. Most quickly degenerate, or turn into "more swings on more crits please."

I'm always interested in FRESH ideas though ( the latest two came from old barb threads ).

So, if you have a fresh idea to add diversity, post it, please. ( sans flames of course )

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Post by Doro »

1) BARGE: Barge your way to scatter a zoo of crits away from a selected player.

No damage is dished out to the red tagged crits but they are pushed out 1 or 2 hexes from their target.

2) BOLDER: Throw a barb only item (bolder) at a single crit.

Much like a catapult, the target gets splattered and wiped out into non existance, i.e. no corpse, no loot, just no crit anymore. I imagine bolders would be a rare thing and would not require skill to throw.

3) CARRY: Barb carries another player across the land.

As dexing but carried player is alive and immune from attack (as they are on the shoulders of the barb).


Is this the sort of thing you are looking for?
I have a load of them!

Of course they would need fleshing out - which I can do (or others), you wanted ideas.

I will stop at these 3 for now, they were the first ones that came to mind within 10 seconds.

Edit:- removed my semi flame
Last edited by Doro on Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ho

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Post by Brad »

They sound interesting, but they arent fight to fight abilities. The complaints i get is "ARG ARG ARG ARG ARG (heal) ARG ARG". Thats what we are trying to breakup.

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Post by Dragon »

Hmm how about adding in other 'arg' type commands that do special things. Barbs are all about sacrificing something for something else, ie defense for offense. So anything that runs along those lines would be good.
Such as 'grr', retarget to main psi casting crit in youre area and repeated uses will attack that enemy for a bit of extra damage (due to the barbs hate of psionics and whatnot)
Maybe add some other commands like that so you have some other choices.

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Post by Doro »

Ah OK I see . . .

Some form of sweep attack as per MA, but weapon weilding - yes I know it sounds like MS, but barbs don't have any multiple attacking skills at the moment.

Some form of retragetting. In any zoo situation there always seems to be one that hits my barb more than any other in the zoo. Give the ability to retarget onto that one crit (even if I can't identify which one it is).

Give us a skill that sucks stats into our crit on a temporary basis when we attack an oponent. We have seen Ments deplete their FF crits, can we do that from red tagged crits?

3 from several I am thinking about.

Am I on the right lines now?

If we all came up with 3 ideas then Brad would have more than enough to work with.

- - - - - -

Thought of more now:

Stunning blow; the chance to stun more than damage a crit would be useful in certain situations, we get stuns occasionally, but a more reliable method could be useful.

Many babrs have proning weapons, a skill that prones less (even with a proner) could be handy for those that have fewer weapons at their disposal.

Many weapons are slashing types, many are for poking/stabbing, others are blunts. Can you devise different skills for different weapon types?

I'm rambling now, sorry, I'll stop ho ho
Last edited by Doro on Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
ho

Fix
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Post by Fix »

Ugg level 60 barb

I have suggestion for barb. It's called FINISHING BLOW. It hits with full force of a zerked attack (but not multiple), but doesn't retarget and doesn't zerk items off the ground. This would make barbs alot less irritating to play cause you wouldn't target friendlies and drop your weapon, but would be less boring cause you would need to time it right at the end of fight.

Fix

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Post by Trucidare »

Your looking for new Barb commands to break up the ARG repetivness?
Very well i can ramble on this subject easily enough 8)
How about letting us Headbutt things?
Sounds barbish in the extreme to me. It could have a high stun chance as previously offered or prehaps lower the attack of the unfortunate crit thus thumped. Id imagine hed be seeing stars and dizzy enough to miss for a few rounds. You could tie it to MA skill as it would technically be an unarmed attack i suppose.
Or how about this. A Bearhug. A crazy brute rushes up to the badguy, lifts him off his feet and attempts to compact him into a very small badguy. Seems something an insane berserker would do. It could have some Cumlitive damage for as long as your trying to crush his spine dependant on Lv and Str. That...or just another offering on how to stun things considering the barbs got the crit tied up and it cant fight back.
Tackle. Simply throws a tackle at the target and gaurentees a prone if it hits.
Bellow. The barb draws himself up to his full hight, puffs out his chest and makes himself look as imposing as possiable, then lets loose a massive mind-numbing scream of anger. Could have any sort of humbling effect on crits what werent too sure of the wisdom of attacking the smelly one.
What would you suppose a nutjob barb would do if he saw his opponent flop senseless to the ground after a prone? Why hed Pounce on him! If the player hits a prone and is paying attention he could command the barb to Pounce and hed jump the proned villian and land a massive blow on him.
Well I suppose this is getting a bit lenghty at this point so ill call it quits for now. If ya like any of these...Thanks. If my puncuation and spelling so offend you you feel the need to yell at me, please bear in mind ive been a barb for too many years to help it at this point 8)
Ragnarr Lv 26 Brute

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Doro
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Post by Doro »

"Nutjob" cunjours up all sorts of images ho ho.
ho

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Post by Suggs »

68th Barb

Great job on the recent changes Brad. The barb is now a useful party member again. The ability for psi crits to cancel barb tiers is awesome, and the amount of damge a barb can inflict on crits while hasted, although not insane as suggested by some, means they are no longer the party leech.

With haste I would put myself about on a par with a ment of similar size, but still a good way behind what a RP'ing MA can dish out.

I agree that outside NL the hasted barb is even more unbalanced, but a primal barb should be hunting mormar, therefore this is where my observations are based.

Jay___ZAND

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Post by Esper »

Originally posted by Suggs

With haste I would put myself about on a par with a ment of similar size, but still a good way behind what a RP'ing MA can dish out.

Jay___ZAND
With haste, do you really expect to do damage similar to a Ment's (an understatement, imo), and at the same time vamp back more HP than you take in? Do you even get hit much anymore, with your several chances of proning a crit each round? All that while you have twice the HP of a Ment, without having to deal with any EP issues.

Sounds like everyone will reroll to Barbs all over again.

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Post by Suggs »

Esper,

Yes I do expect a barb to do similar damage to that of a ment of same size (and yes Brad, the barb shouldn't have to rely on a detrimental ability for this to happen). Both classes focus is on damage, unless I'm way off the mark with my class interpretation. Please explain why you think they shouldn't.

If every ARG resulted in a multiple swing, and each swing connected, then I would have to agree that the barb class would seriously unbalance the game again, and thats why I was more than a little annoyed at Zul posting results from Nork lairs where a primal barb can connect with a toilet brush. But this just isn't the case in mormar, on average lower mormar crits block me over 50% of the time, and given that a barb takes damage from virtually every blow in lower mormar, there is no way I can hunt without a healer.

So Brad, if barbs are stuck with having to take haste to do any kind of resonable damage in NL, then by all means nerf the vamping ability if thats what ppl are worried about.

I can understand other players concerns regarding class balance after what happened in cob, and there are very few barbs left to give honest feedback, I'm just giving my experience and opinion thus far, others will disagree and surmize, they always do.

Jay___ZAND

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Post by Poldarn »

thats a very good point suggs, i did test in nork... and barbs dont hunt there to grow. therefore my tests there are irrelevant and ments CAN connect 100% with tiers, we can't with hally. However... i did do tests in m16 Solo... here are my results.

Vs Mace crit, which i believe is in the middle of the spectrum difficulty-to-hit wise (ma's easier, spears harder)

With Banditlord Rings, and a DE2 Hally...

32/40 connects. Translating to dead on 80% connect.

Vs Axe Crit

With Lich Rings, and a DE2 Hally...

36/50, Translating to dead on 72% connect.


This, is much greater than 50%... its more by 1/4 swings... therefore, you are proven wrong with your "50%" claim.. and furthermore, we have room for improvement with various party buffs and higher skills (may i remind of the fact that Nameless Land IS considered a party based scenario, and therefore i believe that is relevant)... being that i am only skill 32. I still believe the percentage needs to be lowered, but in between espers suggestion of 2.5% and brad's current of 5%. Also, at level 61, i had no trouble keeping alive in m16.
Last edited by Poldarn on Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Esper »

Originally posted by Suggs


Esper,

Yes I do expect a barb to do similar damage to that of a ment of same size (and yes Brad, the barb shouldn't have to rely on a detrimental ability for this to happen). Both classes focus is on damage, unless I'm way off the mark with my class interpretation. Please explain why you think they shouldn't.

If every ARG resulted in a multiple swing, and each swing connected, then I would have to agree that the barb class would seriously unbalance the game again, and thats why I was more than a little annoyed at Zul posting results from Nork lairs where a primal barb can connect with a toilet brush. But this just isn't the case in mormar, on average lower mormar crits block me over 50% of the time, and given that a barb takes damage from virtually every blow in lower mormar, there is no way I can hunt without a healer.

So Brad, if barbs are stuck with having to take haste to do any kind of resonable damage in NL, then by all means nerf the vamping ability if thats what ppl are worried about.

I can understand other players concerns regarding class balance after what happened in cob, and there are very few barbs left to give honest feedback, I'm just giving my experience and opinion thus far, others will disagree and surmize, they always do.

Jay___ZAND
What does a Barb have besides damage?
Huge HP
Vamping
Party Buffs
Gazes

What does a Ment have besides damage?





And that's why Barb's shouldn't be doing as much damage as Ments. Feel free to add to the list if you want, but don't try comparing Haste or Teleport to a Barb's HP.

We all have our own ways of dealing out our damage. Barbs need their swings to connect, but those swings have chances of proning of flattening crits. There's also no real negative factors to a Barb's swing. Other classes go through defense losses. Ments hit 100% of the time, but those discs require EP. If you want to go down the road of comparing Pros/Cons, we can do that. Just remember them the next time you compare yourself to an MA's RP.

There is some value to Poldarn's previous tests in Nork. It showed that a Barb that hasn't even reached the halfway point of the Primal levels can potentially deal as much as a Ment who has completed the Primal levels. Pair the numbers up and do the math with a Barb's hit rate in Mormar (75% for example), and you can get an accurate number of what a Barb is capable of in Mormar.

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Post by Fix »

Ugg level 60 barb

Well I know 4 or 5 barbs who quit the game shortly after they bought nameless land. It wasn't because they were bored by the barb crit either. It was because they sucked in nameless land and do for many levels. Pallys and ments can grow very fast in nameless land but barbs are mostly relegated to leeching their way to 55.

So after all that time of just plain sucking, Brad gives them something good, namely haste. All of a sudden every non barb out there screams that it is cobrahn all over. We don't know if it is cobrahn all over. Nobody is soloing rift guardian. If they can then yea let's fix that.

Personally I will only use haste on lairs due to the stat loss. So most of my time I am still the same barb I was before haste.

Then there is vamping. Yes I think it is obvious that vamping twice in a round is a unintended side affect of haste and should be tweaked. I haven't noticed the vamping myself because I always use healers on nl lairs (exception is GD) so vamping no vamping makes no difference to me.

Fix

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Post by Elessar »

Originally posted by Fix
All of a sudden every non barb out there screams that it is cobrahn all over. We don't know if it is cobrahn all over. Nobody is soloing rift guardian. If they can then yea let's fix that.
I'm the one who warned that we are heading in the cobrahn direction, and actually I do have a barb, level 56.

No barb has soloed RG (yet) because barbs are not ready yet.. just like cobrahn. When all the uber gear that was "needed" was added to balance barbs in cob, there wasn't a SINGLE barbarian in the entire game above level 35.

Barbs are complaining that they suck now at level 60-65, and are being given stuff to counter it, but meanwhile there are 10-15 more levels to gain and gear that has never even been seen yet out there for barbs.

DOUBLING barb's potential damage and vamping at level 70+ before we have even SEEN a level 70+ barb in action seems like a drastic and potentially disastrous road to go down.

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Post by Fix »

Ugg level 60 barb

Yes Elessar, I read you previous post and you say the same thing here as you did then.
You also say it in chat. What I am saying is your argument doesn't hold water. Cobrahn and nameless land are apples and oranges.

Fix

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Post by Elessar »

I have given a list of reasons why and how I see them as being comparable and why the analogy is not good for overall balance in the game.

You say it's not, and your evidence is "it's apples and oranges".

I can't compete with that, we'll have to agree to disagree.

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Post by Stormwind »

Part Time Barb (various levels)

I think a big problem with the balance of the game is there doesn't seem to be a clearly defined role for many of the classes anymore. Everything is about "Hey, they can do more damage than we can! Our class is broken!"

Example: I'll use barbs so as not to break the thread.
Brad recently spoke of his vision of barbs as being happiest in huge zoos, flailing about. None of the abilities barbs have though meshes with this. It makes no sense. Barbs have no natural multi-attack ability, they cannot retarget easily, they have no area affect disciplines.
Everything up until Quirks has been about a "bull" mentality with a barb. They see only whats in front of them and knock it down, then move on to the next thing.

I think in order to really get balance back, we need to determine what role each class has both solo and in a party. Once thats settled, then start figuring out who should do the most damage, etc.

I've always thought a barb should have the highest average sustainable damage output of all classes. They sacrifice defense almost completely for offense and the only thing keeping them alive is their hefty pool of HP.

As an aside.. barbs boring? whats the difference between...

Zerk, arg arg arg and (pally buff) maxstrike maxstrike maxstrike or prots, tier tier tier

90% of the time, thats all people are doing.

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Post by Hulk »

I think the difference lies in the amount of different things people have at their disposal to be bored with Storm. It is all pretty much the same to me... Bored with 2 commands or 4, it is all the same thing. And a long time ago there were preset guidelines for what each class was and you are right the barb was to be the most offensive of the fighter classes, but they plain sucked in comparison to defense based types even.
Last edited by Hulk on Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Darge »

I found the most hunting variation in mormar and dl in general was in solo hunting. Bog made me use blindstrike, multistrike, armorstrike (or maxstrike, relative to whether i needed more defense), parry at lower levels, my paladin buffs in constant use, thruststrike, and even healingtouch. Solo mormar i used all those skills, except blindstrike. I found balance in the fact that i hunted bog, mormar, and forge solo an almost equal ammount as i spent in mormar partied, up till 70. So for some classes, its not necessarily that they are boring, more that the person playing them cant make it fun ;)
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Post by Ztinktoof »

55/30 barbarian

I have had a lot of recent opportunity to play and observe primal barbarians, some in their 60s.

Talking about Barbarian balance in Nameless Lands by doing tests in Nork is completely and utterly pointless. Any primal class with a killer and/or some tiers has been taking down Nork lairs, solo, for some time. Some, well before primal.

What are we arguing about? Now a barb can kill SoB in 5 minutes instead of 10? Please.

And yes, a recent hunt of a "tough" cob lair was rendered pointless by two hasted primal barbarians proning the crap out of it. But either of them could solo it many months ago. It just took a bit longer, is all.

An armor block test based on 50 swings is also pointless. The statistical variation at that sample size easily approaches 20% either way.

The barbarian specific quirks, the tier changes and the haste are much needed where it counts: as a class that can help a group progress through Mormar. Before these changes we dragged barbarians along as meat shields to keep a mob or too busy while the real damage dealers focused on 1 critter at a time. Yea. That was a lot of fun for the barbarian.

Vamping while hasted may be an issue but one should be very careful here as barbarians get clobbered in Mormar at full zerk. I don't see an issue for the general dungeons where barbarians are most efficient in mobs which also means lots of damage coming in.

If a healer is in a party, all of this is moot. Vamp or no vamp, unless you are really pushing the edge the barbarian isn't going to die.

Balancing the class for *progression* through Mormar should NOT be based on the availability of end-game gear.

It should be based on what the class can get as it travels through the game, not on what it can get when big friends drag it through lairs where the barbarian is underleveled.

If end-game gear makes a class too powerful in the areas it should logically be progressing through, then that is a problem with the gear, not the class.

The real issue that I have seen is barbarian solos (well, solo but with some support, like a hasting ment or buffing healer) of lairs. Personally, I would not be surprised to hear of a pre-70 barbarian "soloing" some of those end-game NL lairs.

Something that needs to be watched for sure. But I would recommend a tweak of the lair, not the class.
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Darge
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Post by Darge »

This topic has died down quite a bit, and while i dont want to detract from the main issue at hand, i feel this needs to be mentioned. From an end game perspective (not end scenario, this means capped out crits and as such isnt necessarily the best example)
Orignally posted by Esper
They'll outdamage ments, a class that focuses only on damage.
and
What does a Ment have besides damage
are not necessarily true. I dont think anyone in drakkar can deny that a capped ment with all mormar and lvl 70 gear and a blood maxxed ss (with a respectable skill level to go with it) has quite a bit of defense. Certainly not that of a paladin (due to typically higher skill for blocks), but still a fairly nice perk to having a crit of such size. In this respect, im not sure i so much mind that a barb might outdamage a ment while hasted and of comparable size.

In any case, that's just an aside, and one thought that came to mind after reading suggs post on Riposte class quirk would be slightly changing arg at a certain level. It can become a targetted ability ie, #arg at Leif, or make a different ability for this purpose that possibly has a 3 attack per command maximum, with say a 10% higher chance to fire all 3 attacks off in a round (being 10% higher than the chance of arg's fury at any stage of development). In this sense, a barb has learned to focus their rage a bit and now can employ a sense of combat tactics. Another idea includes the ability for a barb to "Howl" causing targets to save against a number relative to the barbarians level or run in fear as if they had low health for so and so rounds. Would not affect lairs, so its main purpose would be crowd control for lairs that have natural zoos or crits around them.

On the issue of vamping + haste, remove the vamp effect from the 2nd arg, or make vamping when hasted work at half the normal ammount for both args per round.

And, finally,
Originally posted by Fix
Cobrahn and nameless land are apples and oranges.
Yes fix, you are spot on the obviousness of them being apples and oranges. What you seem to have failed to mention, is that the effect of NL growth, when compared to cobrahn growth (gear included) bears a wildly greater increase in character capabilities. You do not know what the end game gear is like for barbs, and there is 1 peice of that gear, nobody in the entire player base knows of how it will perform when worn yet. Are you really prepared to say how these changes change end game barbs when A: you have nothing substantial to back saying that (ie, not having a barb with RG boots [or having even gone up against RG for that matter] or a barb that can yet wear NL plate) and B: you dismiss the opinion a player who has reached end game and might have a much better idea of at least the effects of RG boots upon barbarians will have. But you said it to that player, and now ill say it to you
Originally posted by Fix
your argument doesn't hold water.
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I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

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Post by Crusher »

Level 66/32 Barb - Is a Barb

Topic died down because I don't have internet just yet :( ISP needs to work faster to get themselves back to work... Using AOL atm, Hard to get used to it. Will be making more appearances.

As a barb, we're to do damage? Not really much defense, Vamping and HP to count for that, even then they are obsolete. Vamping is a good bit more useful now than before. Their HP hardly compares with a Paladin's with 1.6k more?

Party buffs, Paladins have that... Ments lost the party buffs once they got to NL and 34 DMG ABS became useless... 68 to themselves? But, now that party buffs are party friendly... It gives a bit of a disadvantage for some classes. Ments should have skill+EP regen boosts at 31+. However, there are none. I don't think there was any boost at one or two of the skills.

Gazes are the most useful thing as a barb. However, high end lairs, Gazes aren't really useful. It's a want, not necessary.

The reason why barbs left was because they were left out. Not needed. Paladins, Healers, Ments, MAs, FMs, Thieves? had their purpose. Barbs didn't. But as always. You try to fix one class and you end up realizing what needs to be fixed with others... Paladins do TONS of damage and are accurate... Not a problem if you're willing to take the time to fix it.

The agro on monsters messed up things... Ments did a ton of damage and always took agro... Then as paladins got to skill 34, they outdamaged ments and it was nothing but a thing of the past... But then ments get pissed off because they no longer do the damage and don't have half of what the paladins have... Now they feel like a Barb. Useless in most cases. Zaps are their IH's, but the zaps don't come at the price of IH's. Barbs are buffed, a little higher than expected. Easily patched... Fix Ments, tone down barbs or give them something else besides Haste to make them outdamage a class... Then we forget the MAs, they still outdamage anything... Ever wonder who's been killing Merkon? lol... I don't think it was a Barb... Here's where the ideas come...

I always thought of Barbs being uncontrolled for a certain amount of time... While their rage fades away... Have a NL tier that makes them fury every round for 20-30 rounds with 40-50 rounds recast. Awsome damage for that time, but it won't replace Paladins... Why should a 70/34 Barb outdamage a 70/34 Paladin by only a little... Right now, as I stated before, I did 4/5 of the damage a Hasted 70/34 Paladin dished out as a Hasted 66/32 Barb. Yes it will be a bit overpowering at 70/34 barb. I was thinking 75% at lvl 70... That way I'll be 70/32 and able to under damage a Paladin, But I'll be checking the damage for skill 34 as a Barb that now has internet...

Another Idea would be to have paladins and Barbs have a damage control type thing for Agro... That way, Ments can go all out with the tiers they have and be able to communicate with the Paladin or Barb to get the crit off of him. Giving a Party support for those classes. Have zaps become a common drop in Areas of Mormar. Maybe another place in NL. Increase the EP regen as Ments skill their Primal Skills. Give them bonuses in their pre-primal discs.

Another Rant, Paladins are tin cans... Should they outdamage everyone?
Ments, that's another deal. Ments have a good bit of damage, Defense, instant tiers, but it's still lacking ... Ments should outdamage Barbs, but at a cost of being Agro'd, While targeted, their tiers are down to 75% damage. This would have Paladins/Barbs use their Agro control on the npcs.

More to come, I had more to this but lost a good bit while typing it.

So, in my opinion, Barbs could use a little less damage, but really, all classes need to be tweaked a little to make this more roleplaying.
Last edited by Crusher on Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
You'll never win... PLEAD INSANITY!

icawn
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2002 7:14 pm

Replying to Topic 'Barb Changes Feedback'

Post by icawn »

remove the ment factor altogether. give barbs 50+ a 2 second timer by default. also, double their fury swings from 4 to 8 and increase their to-hit until damage output is equivelant to prealtered rapid punch in mormar. once we're 70 you can change it back.

obviously i'm not being serious. like half of the worthless posts in this thread, this is one of them.

don't stop whining now, continue...

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