Loot Stealing - Acceptable Now?

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Crusher
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Post by Crusher »

Barbs while zerking down lose: vamping, some hp, anti-stun, anti-cstun. All considering the barb is 27+. Chances are, if he's hunting UD4 or UD5, the best place to coin, it would be hard and very risky to consider zerking down/slamming to remove zerk.

Btw, what do you mean by Define ALL parameters of that rule?
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Post by Dragonslayer »

I think all rules should be replaced by "Don't be a dick", but that's against drak's family values.
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Post by flisk »

the punishment for PKing has always been:

1st time: Warning (it could have been a mistake)

2nd time: 24 hour lock (people can lose tempers)

3rd time: 7 day lock (no reason it should happen that many times)

4th time or more: Perm Ban.

Those rules are consistant and have been since Day 1. There is rarely an exception to this. That said, that is not what this post is about.

As for your rule of "no one should go into someone elses hunt area and loot it at all". That means that I cannot even walk through pillars now because it is considered someone else's hunt area.
How do you enforce something like that?
Put up a wall that only you can walk through?
That then effectively closes off a portion of the game ( a rather large portion at that ) to the other players.
How do you stop someone from walking past you?
How does that effect members of your party?
Are they allowed to loot in your area? That goes against the "no-one should go" rule does it not?


Crusher, that is what I mean by defining all parameters of the rule; basically it means that you have to ask all questions that you can in order to define it.

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Post by BoneCrusher »

I didn't say they can't walk into an area, I meant they can't loot someone elses hunting spot. I walk into many areas others are hunting in, and I leave. I don't stand on a hex next to them and pick up all the gems and leave the coin so they don't realize I've looted their area. I'm sure you realize what I meant and are going to great lengths to avoid the issue. Obviously its not even worth discussing.

The reason I brought up the pk'er was that you were talking about rules. He pk'd many many people, it was an extremely bad incident, and done purposely to hurt others, that to me means he would get a permanent ban. But was back 24 hours later. I also feel that an experienced player knows not to just start pk'ing for fun. Which is exactly what happened. Yet like I said 24 hours later he was back in game. This influences others to do the same "for fun" when they feel like it, since they know the penantly is no big deal.

This happens constantly whether its pk'ing, looting, etc. The rules are the problem and the lack of understanding by the Sysops/Brad is the true problem. I don't see this ever being rectified just by the mere fact that no effort is being made to change it. We do not program this game and are unaware of how to fix the problem. But we are the players in this game and can easily tell you what the problem is. I guess if we want to continue playing we'll have to adjust ourselves to deal with the issue and make it a hassle for us to play thanks to looters and cheaters.
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Post by flisk »

I'm really unsure what PKer you are talking about; but I can assure you that 5 accounts were locked last week for PKing. And 2 of them were experienced player that decided to do it "just for fun". Maybe they found another game, maybe they ran out of money, who knows the reason. If one of them returned 24 hours later, it could have been that another sysop locked them for 24 hours. Who knows. What I can tell you is that the ones I locked will not be returning anytime soon.

As for your further explanation of your rule; it is not possible to code in a "morality" such as when someone sees you in a hunting spot they leave. Not in any game.
I'm not going at any lengths to avoid the issue. If I were doing that do you think I would maintain an active voice in this thread? If I was avoiding the issue wouldn't I have deleted the thread instead? Furthermore I've flat out addressed the issue of this thread:
Players do not like the current rule.
I've also suggest how the player base can change that rule.
On the contrary, I am sticking very closely to the issue.

But I'm also going to point out that it's not as simple as saying; "no one should go into someone elses hunt area and loot it at all".
You have to be able to back that rule up.

I'm asking all of the questions because if the rule is simply:
"no one should go into someone elses hunt area and loot it at all"

Then all aspects of it have to be defined; else you have players that will ask the questions that I asked in the previous post.

Something else that I have noticed happen quite a bit:

"Room in pillars if anyone wants. PJ pillar."

I've seen that over and over in the lobby. You guys do realize that by doing that it just invites others to take advantage of you. I'm not saying you should avoid saying that, it tickles me pink to see players party together from different groups like that. That's what the game is all about.

I'd love to see the game adobt the "don't be a richard" type rule system, but again it's impossible to code in morality. All we can do is our best. It's simply not an easy task for a sysop to dig through that many lines of logs to see who took some gems and gold.
It is easy, however, for players to take responsibility to pick it up for themselves.

If you work hard for your paycheck (grunting in whatever area of the game) and you get handed your paycheck (gems and gold) are you going to leave it on the ground for anyone to pick up or stick it in your pocket?
Last edited by flisk on Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Stormwind »

Ahiro (dz name zero) was back in DZ lobby and also was able to log into game within less than 24 hours from when he was banned. I presume a ban would prevent someone from entering lobby much less entering game. I made a point of warning folks in my chat rooms about it. The day and time were 12:30.42 07/24//2005.
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Post by flisk »

I locked the IP initally. That would not prevent someone from using a different computer in a different house to log in. After it happened again the account itself was locked (only brad has that ability).

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Post by Darge »

of course im sure the fear system might work fairly well, ie, dont mess with my loot, or ill elance you, but thats sorta frowned upon by sysops, and of course people would exploit it, ie, he was standing there for a few rounds,i figured he was looting so i killed him. When in actuallity the "looter" was just asking to pj and the pk'er either did not see it due to many other messages being strewn across their scroll bar, or they simply chose not to see it. But i guess once youve changed it, its doesnt look good to go back to the old, and imo more effective, system. Fear is a powerful tool indeed...
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Post by Migam »

Call me crazy but you'd think the Acct would be locked before an IP lock.

1) IP lock punishes all on that IP including other family members who play. It should come after an Acct lock is bypassed by the player switching to another Acct to continue; then you lock that one too. Then go with IP lock.

2) There are many using Dialup or dynamic broadband which just involves redial or restart of modem to be another IP.

If Brad is the only one to give more than 24 hour lock/ban..1) extend that to Sysops then Brad can review decision within 24 hours and modify or let stand or 2) Sysop contacts Brad during those 24 hour to request more substantial punishment.

Btw, the invitation to call me crazy stands :)
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Necron99
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Replying to Topic 'Loot Stealing - Acceptable Now?'

Post by Necron99 »

Hmmm...

Ok, here is a suggestion.

If the desired player behavior is for folks to pick up loot as they kill, then perhaps the game can be modified to encourage that behavior.

1) For non-psi users (like me), I don't loot as I go because I become encumbered and that effects my ability to hit. Perhaps if the weight penalty of coins were decreased, then players would fill their sacks as they go, taking the high value gems and items, leaving the rest "at risk".

2) Complimentary to the above, the coin limit for sacks could be increased. Currently, solo hunting in ud3 (in and around the quazi room alone) will yield over 1 meg coins per hour.

I admit it will not fix the "floor thief" problem, and does not help 'zerked barbs at all, but at least it would encourage more folks to grab and sack as they hunt.

Respecfully...

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Post by Ztinktoof »

I am king of all that I can see.

Is that so hard to understand?

I walk into an area. I see players there and loot all about.

I walk at least 9 hexes away before looting or hunting.

Mind if I loot?

Mind if I join?

If the answer is no, then move at least 9 hexes away.
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Post by Doro »

Hear hear
ho

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Post by Merlin »

This topic hes been killed over and over in multiple forum posts made by myself and alot of others.

Nothing that will make a difference ever was done about it, nor do i think it will ever be addressed in the way that the players want it.

Post again and again how it should be/how you think it should be nothing will happen.

There is just no respect anymore.


Holy Cow, i agree with Zt <g>


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Last edited by Merlin on Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Ambrose »

*Takes a deep breath*
*ignores the rolling eyes*

The 'truth' is simple enough: you cannot STOP other players from taking whatever is on the ground. The rules say that it is mine? So what? My recourse to 'justice' is stopping what I am doing and sending in an email. Time, server, name of offender ... maybe the person gets talked to ... doesn't matter.

You can try and out them as a floor thief in lobby ... not enough people watching ... or who care. How many times was I asked my opinion on a guild applicant, only to be ignored when I identified them as a floor thief?

The only thing I have working for me is that when I 'host' a mini event in lobby, those on my ignore list are ineligible ...

"To know me is to have access to knowledge, riches, friendship ... and you, Sir ... are REJECTED!"

if I could hook up a little electro-shock to hit them thru their computer chair on the word 'REJECTED', that would be good too

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Post by Balmxmoe »

I find it amusing that the sysops think changing the rule will affect the frequency of their checking logs.

Player A is hunting on one hex, just like he's pretty much forced to do if he hopes to be protected by the rules.

Player B walks in and grabs loot from his hex.

Player A calls in a sysop.

Player B says he was there first. Or maybe he just walked into the zoo and didn't see the other player. Wait, I know... player B killed the creature with a ranged attack, as it was moving, and it dropped the loot he took onto player A's hex.

What can the sysop do? Check logs.


Changing the rule will not affect a player's ability to lie and force you to check the logs. Don't defend your unwillingness to change with that nonsense.


Here's an idea:
If you didn't create the pile, and there's a player on the screen, it's not yours, so don't take it.

If you didn't create the pile, and there's not a player on the screen, wait for the owner, visibly, for 5 minutes before you can claim the pile.

Sure, it makes it a little bit more of a pain to run around looting things other people didn't want, but you didn't earn it anyway. So who cares?

Player B, in this scenario, would just say he didn't see the person after standing there, visible, for 5 minutes. So what do you have to do? Check the logs.

Either way, you're stuck with it. There's the EXACT same ability for a player to lie either way, so just change the rules and be strict in enforcing them. Let them FEEL that you had to spend two hours checking the logs. They won't do it again. And as an added bonus for you, sysops, you can still tell people to pick up their loot. ;)


Even if you don't like that rule, the fact still remains that there's just as much opportunity for a player to lie with the rule that's currently in place as with ANY other. You've expressed your opinion that players SHOULD have a right to their own loot, and there's no difference in the possible occurance of what you're claiming to be the ONLY drawback of changing the rule.

Stop making irrational excuses and do something about it. You're going to lose players if you start refusing to do what you, yourselves, recognize needs to be done, excusing yourself by saying, "But I don't want to do it! I don't want to have the responsibility of doing what I know and admit is right, even though I'm the only one who can! It's too much work! You players should do the work and take away gameplay value, in addition to all the hours of mindless clicking you all ready do just to see a minor gain in power. And in the event that a liar lies(who'd have guessed that would ever happen?), I guess I'll reluctantly check the logs for you." That would be true even if there WEREN'T the same possibility of having to check the logs.


Here's a summary:
Liars are liars are liars. If they're going to lie, they're going to lie. If they know you have comprehensive logs, they won't lie in either scenario. If they don't, they will lie, and you're either going to check the logs or ignore whatever rule is in place.


Oh, and if you want a good comparison, here it is:
The police have begun telling vehicle owners that they should take all the gas out of their cars before leaving them for any reason. Citizens are expected to refuel their vehicles after every stop.

When asked to comment, the police chief only said, "Do you know how long it takes to fill out all that paperwork?! Stop sitting in your damn A/C and just refuel your car after every stop! It's that simple. You people are just being lazy, and that's why your cars are being stolen. Stop giving us more work to do... we've got parades to run."


-Nuvix


EDIT: Typo
Last edited by Balmxmoe on Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by flisk »

Nuvix / Balmxmoe,

It's already been established in this thread that Sysops DO check the logs each time a report is made.

In light of that, I'm not sure what the meaning of your post is.

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Post by Migam »

Lmao, here's an idea (tongue-in-cheek) since usually the response to complaints ends up being "Rather than complain, why don't you come up with reasonable suggestions?". I don't do reasonable well though ;) . Here's one I'm going to throw at the wall and see if it sticks.

Just as you can have only one FF at a time with the 1st vanishing when you cast again, how about a marker? You cast it on the lootpile you're working so you can twig out to cash in and come back to it. This marker would supercede all other items so would be clearly visible to all to avoid. It expires upon recast on a new lootpile or after 5 minutes.

Of course, as in any honor system, those with no honor won't honor it therefore it's like that expression... locks are to keep the honest man out. And, no, I'm not going to suggest that all other persons are prevented to stay off that hex, that's crazy talk. The end result is that suddenly, it'll be hidden players casting markers than screeching "Mine mine mine". Or someone moving to the hex next to you and casting a marker to clean that hex out (oh wait, that's already authorized per the rules). And really.... are you honestly asking that we kill 20 crits, stop to search em, load up gems, coins, xmute then twig back? Hell, that's twigging every 5 mins, what a way to make the game really fun :| .

And I never liked that barbs have major problems trying to loot zerked. Yes, more realistic but how do they manage looting UC5 while trailblazing a zerked path of death and destruction while someone sneaks in at the beginning and waiting for the rot? Should they de-zerk? HA! They're told, keep zerking and wait for rot.

My point while poking fun at the situation is this... no one is going to code morality into this game, Brad will never allow a claim to a 9x9 area which moves as you do, no one who is dishonest is going to give a crap about right and wrong and I doubt there will be some pixie or sprite that grabs the items and follows you to the bank (although LoK did allow you to have djinns carry loot for you). I realized this was futile long ago and generally keep looting my area and loudly acknowledge the player's presence who's doing this to have em say lol "Oh! Didn't see you there, sorry, God Bless"... yeah. You cannot even expect players in pillars to WAIT til they're leaving party or party disbands to secretly load up their sacks while the rest of killing crits then it's "Oh, I need IH, brb". Yeah, I got your IH for ya right here.
Last edited by Migam on Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Frozboz »

Here's a good way to steal loot. Grab an invis twig, head to an area rich with loot. This works best in upper, pillars, uc3.5, and such. Go invis. Be careful to avoid players using area or on-hex attacks like firebreath or earthcrush. Then, to be sure no one notices what you're doing, take note of how many coins are on the ground. If, say, there are 500000 coins, type

#get 499999 coins;put coins in sack

You can even make a macro for it! This way, the graphic doesn't change and the suspecting party nearby who you're stealing from won't know you're there. Since there are 1 coins on the hex, the graphic still shows a coin pile. Always pick up all coins but 1. Do this quickly. Feel free to loot everything in doorways. When they eventually do run around to loot, they will see 1 coin everywhere, they will petition, and you will be long gone.

Have fun!

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Gasthrax
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Post by Gasthrax »

uhh.. just make the game where only party members can take the loot that is killed by that party. i mean cmon, even suckass games figured that one out.
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Post by Rygar »

Yea, and let us carry all the gold we ever get. An endless amount could be carried. Get rid of the bankers. Gold wouldn't hinder weight at all. Then drakkar could be more like those other games !1! :sarc


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Last edited by Rygar on Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Crusher »

I always thought it'd be nice to scribe onto scrolls. When someone walks over the scroll on the ground. It would display a scroll popup, saying whatever. That way, you could drop a scroll where you're hunting and if a person sees that while you're hunting somewhere. They should turn away, or pm you as I would say in my scroll. It could be abused by people putting scrolls everywhere, but here's the easy thing. You'll know who put the scroll, so abuse = easy lock. :) It would also read out who steps on the scroll. So, you can know when liminv people are running about. It wouldn't prevent Thieves from stealing but it would prevent "accidents" from happening. It would also put a kind of Waypoint for Sysop's logs. If they step on a scroll, the sysops could look at the logs and start from when he entered the area.
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Post by Balmxmoe »

Originally posted by flisk


Nuvix / Balmxmoe,

It's already been established in this thread that Sysops DO check the logs each time a report is made.

In light of that, I'm not sure what the meaning of your post is.



To be perfectly honest, Flisk, neither am I. I sound pretty pissed off, though, don't I? Hmmm.

I think it had something to do with the 1 hour of sleep I had the night before last, in combination with the energy drink.

I really don't know what the point was, but I'll speculate that I was trying to call you guys lazy for not changing the rule, associating your older posts complaining about checking the logs with your posts refusing to change the rule without the players telling you what they actually want. Obviously, there is no true association between your complaints about having to check the logs and your refusal to change the rule.

However... the fact does remain that any rule anybody suggests, as long as they help make it clear that you can't steal loot, would be no worse than the current rule. You'd have to come up with something stupid like "IF THERE PLAYERS FOR SCREEN AND LOOT IS DON'T YOURS!!!!" Heck, you could even reword THAT to make a rule as effective as the current rule.


Here's an example:
If you didn't create the pile and there is another player on the screen, don't pick any of the items up-- they're not yours.

Worst case scenario: Nobody knows whose pile it is, so nobody grabs it until there is only one person left on the screen. Sure, somebody could wait for another person to step off the screen, but that's when the next beautiful lines come into play...

As with any rule, use common sense. Stealing items is against the rules. If in doubt, don't touch it. If you do, you may not be touching your account for quite a while. You've been warned, you disrespectful little children.

You might need to reword that a little.

You could also throw in a picture of one of the sysops with devil horns growing out of their head.

For emphasis, take a screenshot of you banning somebody and laughing. Post that, too.

If all else fails, just start banning people at random and tell everybody they were floor thieves. Believe me, the word will spread. If it doesn't, it means you randomly banned all the real floor thieves(along with the rest of the dz population...)! GO FLISK!


AHA! I think I finally figured out what my post was about.
Originally posted by flisk

Whoever was there first? Sure that makes sense. What happens if they both claim to have been there first? Dig through the logs for the previous 6 hours and see who walked into that area first? That's not realistic.
You shot down a rule because it's possible for someone to lie and make you check the logs. I'm not sure why I wrote so damn much about it, though. I think I must've just read that post over and over again, thinking you were making hundreds of posts like that.

That's the answer. I'm not crazy after all. It's all clear now.

I need sleep. 1 + 4.5 = 5.5 hours of sleep in the past two days, working overtime both days and riding a total of 3 hours/day on the bus. If I don't have a nervous beakdown, I'm going to pick up a sledge hammer and start smashing peo... things.

DISCLAIMER:
The views and opinions expressed in this post are not necessarily those of the author, who is frequently possessed by the ghost of L Ron Hubbard. If anything sounds utterly rediculous, incoherent, and downright RETARDED, that is the clear and obvious reason why. The views expressed in this disclaimer are not necessarily the views of the author, nor are they necessarily the views of the drakkarzone staff. Nobody alive today claims responsibility for any damage, mental, emotional, or physical, that might be caused by reading this text, nor can you hold them responsible. This applies to all posts posted under the name of balmxmoe. Now get bent back into place.

Dammit. I'm rambling again. Sleep is required for logical function to return to my brain.


-Nuvix



EDIT: Added quote tags.
Last edited by Balmxmoe on Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Dragonslayer »

That disclaimer was possibly one of the funniest things on this forum lately.
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Migam
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Post by Migam »

LMAO, I thought I rambled <bows to the new King> But I do see a point... I'm scared... hold me.
;)
Last edited by Migam on Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Darge »

Rofl balmxmoe, best forums read ive had in a year or two
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

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