A lair crit idea,

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Brad
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A lair crit idea,

Post by Brad »

As you know, I now have the ability to restrict combat to certain level ranges against a creature.

Since part of drakkar is leveling up high enough to solo lair crits, I dont want to remove that, BUT part of drakkar is also that excitement from taking a group or doing your OWN solo.

Some crits in the game are farmed in huge sweeps by players, so they basically never exist for up and coming adventurers.

I'm opening this up for comment:

1) Do nothing
2) Randomly make lair crits restricted to their level range ( 25% chance on spawn or something )
3) Make spawn quests where you can spawn a level restricted crit if your in the right level range
4) Make new lairs in the same areas, with level restricted crits.

I'd like your feedback, address all comments to me, on target, no inter player squabbling.

Thanks!
Brad

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Replying to Topic 'A lair crit idea,'

Post by RyKnow »

I find this myself to be very annoying. An example of this is slith, he is never home because he is farmed for his amber and corpse, but mostly for his rare drop stat pot. At first i thought to make a whole new alt for new players under a certin range of size that only THEY can enter. And then after a certin point they can't enter it anymore, but at the same time they can enter the other alts too. Like there very own place to get things where they are less rare. But if you could refine this idea Brad, it would be great:p

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Replying to Topic 'A lair crit idea,'

Post by Gizmak666 »

I don't think putting a level cap on crits would be fair, for example, the big crit looking to start up another weapon skill, but now can't get that good long sword because he's too big for the lair.

At first I thought that the smiley rock idea from cob has worked out well, imo anyhow. Then I thought, why do that in nork? A lot of lairs have little quests already built into them. Slith, for example, needs keys to get there. If ya take out the twig/mt spots *inside* the lair area, instant reduction in farming. Sure, you'll then get folks farming the keys, but you'd have the same for smiley rocks and whathaveyou. Other examples of lair entrance quests circumvented would be uther, or reggie, even wardens. I'm sure there are others.

Yes, big folks will still have an advantage in the lair. And I'm sure folks will cry over this "nerf". I'm not sure how easy it would be to wipe out all those twig/mt hexes, versus writing a new lair or spawning code.

If people had to do the quest to get to the lair, or even know the way to get there running, rather than "skip that part", there'd be a lot less lair farming, imo.


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Doro
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Replying to Topic 'A lair crit idea,'

Post by Doro »

I imagine all players would like a pop at a new lair whether as a group or solo.
The top end lairs are in place in NL - I know nothing of them as yet ho ho.

This leaves us with the mid range problem:-

Player <NL access> is able to nuke any Nork Aleria or Cob lair solo and can at their discresion donate seemingly uber gear on anyone with a pay account (level restrictions allowing).

This must stop for the furtherance of the game.

One or two ideas spring to mind;
Make the lair crit DROP the uber gear to ground on death and make it tie on picking up.
At the same time fix the level restriction of the lair items to match the level of the highest player in that Lair.
So . . if the max level of player in the lair (once it has been engaged) is 25 then the gear is fixed at a minimum of lvl 25 to wear.
Bear in mind that a process must be in place to stop a lvl 55 going in and reducing a lair crit to ghosted or sliver and then leaving.
Maybe like certain crits that used to exist in game, when a hex is stepped on prior to going in, the lair crit is AH'd to full health.

More to follow.
ho

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Replying to Topic 'A lair crit idea,'

Post by Doro »

Another idea . .

I have heard much about the Doppleganger, and many requests for it to return . . .

Coule we have a lair that exactly matched the group of players entering that lair?

e.g. if lvl 10, 15 and 30 players enter an lair and the trigger is set to spawn, then lair crits of lvl 10, 15 and 30 appear to do battle, you could even NAME them 10, 15 and 30 so each player knows which one is suited to them to be able to kill, the lair crits would obviously only attack their similarly matched oponent.

A sucessful hunt would result in all lair crits dying and only then dropping the gear to be collected.
The higher the number of players in the lair the less chance they have of killing all the lair crits, thus the rewards could be tailored to suit such a large party perhaps?

Imagine 25 players going in to a lair all at level 13 for some really uber gear !

More later . . .
Last edited by Doro on Thu May 05, 2005 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
ho

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Replying to Topic 'A lair crit idea,'

Post by Doro »

A potential control on lairs . . .

As per Timmy town quest, set something so that only one person can kick start the lair, mch like rocks can.

Go to questor having performed some task and then prevent anyone else from entering that lair before the questing player, the questing player can then specify how many players may enter lair after them by saying "#6,20" or somesuch the lair then spawns suitable gear for 6 players at level 20 player to kill, gear to be lvl 20 restricted.


More later
ho

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Replying to Topic 'A lair crit idea,'

Post by PieterPost »

I think this has been a long time problem, and I think it's great that it's finally being addressed here. However, I don't think this is a Nork-only problem. Particularly Cobrahn and maybe even Aleria are facing the same gear deflation.

As for a solution I really like the idea of implementing another alt designated to, say level 25+ people. These people would then be denied access to any other alts. However, I can see how this might be expensive or even impossible to implement server wise, and it doesn't solve the problem for Cobrahn as I'm sure we will not see a second alt of that segment.

For a solution across segments, I think a combination of 2 changes might work;
The first change would be to make ALL lair crits in ALL segments drop ALL their items of value the instant they are killed, like we see in CH. The second change would be to put a level req on entrance to the lair, like we see in the powergear house; a certain level is needed to venture further (if I remember correctly).

As an extra, I really do think some mt's need to be wiped. People will ALWAYS use dexing still, but the hassle of stack dexing an entire party over mt'ing it will at least cut the farming down a bit. Obvious wipes would be papa lich, slith lair backdoor (this will at least stop the "acid laming" ments), uther, wardens, and maybe even breshard (make people run past mama and baby rd),

For Cobrahn, I think the mt's to the trader beyond the mama green lair and mt's to Conqueros (Vanidor..) need looking at.

The only problem I see to all of this, is if a player dp's the same item the lair drops before the lair is killed, and there is no way to tell which is the untied one from the ground window (similar to what we see when crazzzy people search a merkon corpse before all dp's are retrieved). I can't think of a fix for this problem from the top of my head, other than players making sure all tied gear is off the ground or out of the lair before the lair is killed.

EDIT: When this is implemented, large crits will still be able to farm the lairs smaller crits might need. However, large crits will no longer be inclined to kill the lair crit for smaller crits, as these small'ns can't enter the lair to pick up the gear. I reckon this in itself will heavily reduce farming.

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Last edited by PieterPost on Thu May 05, 2005 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Replying to Topic 'A lair crit idea,'

Post by Doro »

Sorry, have I misunderstood the question?

You are looking to FIX existing lairs or want ideas for new ones?



I will hold back on my really really good ideas for fear of spoiling players' entertainment.
Please contact me if I am going in the right direction for you Brad.
Last edited by Doro on Thu May 05, 2005 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ho

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Replying to Topic 'A lair crit idea,'

Post by Northview »

In my opinion...maybe you should just make the lairs respawn faster. Many of us have busted our asses to get to the size we are currently at...and enjoy the fact that we can destroy any aleria/nork/cob lair without breaking a sweat...so leave the lairs alone unless you decide to lower the respawn time so that we dont grow old waiting for certain lairs to be home for our baby crits that we decide to start working on...or for the new adventurers.

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Post by Atom »

Make NL discs/weapons not work against nork and low level cob lairs.

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Replying to Topic 'A lair crit idea,'

Post by Brad »

Stay focused guys, we are talking about lairs in general, specifically existing lairs (And future lairs)

If possible, please comment on my specific suggestions ( which are gathered from the community ). And post your own if they address our two main points:

Our goals are:

1) Make it so people the lairs are designed for have access to the lair
2) Make it so higher level players can still have some fun nuking the lairs ( Or similar lairs )

( A couple of the original suggestions allow both of these to occur )

Some comments on posted things:

- Lowering Regen: They could respawn once a second, and still be farmed, as we have proven in the past by reducing regen time, all lower regen means is more farming.
- Another alt : Not practical, and doesnt solve the problem, we can't have two copies of every scenario that goes live


Thanks,
Brad

PS I'd also like to hear from you quiet lurkers, the ones who never post. Speak up now, or no complaining later!
Last edited by Brad on Thu May 05, 2005 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Atom »

Add higher level versions of the same classic nork lairs on n11 where discs would work and high level players could run from room to room just for the fun of killing, gear could also drop. Could make it lvl 50 to get in since they would be restricted by my last suggestion, and all lairs spawn upon entry.

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Post by Northview »

Brad,

By lowering respawn..it would make the farming end faster.....eventually the shits that are farming the lairs will find no more use for it...and stop farming it..so that all of the other adventurers can have a shot at it...instead of waiting...5-8 hrs at a time for the lair to spawn..and then hoping you have enough friends on to help you kill it before the guy farming finds out that its home and steals it.


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Replying to Topic 'A lair crit idea,'

Post by RyKnow »

I dont think that 'nurffing' lair regan is a good idea. More people will get mad waiting longer and longer for things. As for a solution..... I dont think that you will find one that makes everyone happy. You could make another alt like a suggested in a pervious post. Even if you make it perfect, you will most likely want to charge for it, and people won't be wanting to pay.

I think that adding a whole new land (like NL) but for smaller people. Where smaller people can go to get gear to survive there and cannot bring it to nork. Sort of like Cob. And then after a certin point they cannot go there anymore what ever that size may be. Like a 'new player bonus'. and for real new players (not people's baby crits) theres is more help offered there. I think you can think of a way to use this to make something.... if not... i tryed. :D

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Post by Esper »

Why do people farm lairs in the first place? It's not about the lair, but about the drops. When creating a lair, just keep in mind the amount of times the lair needs to be killed for the average player.

Avoid random drops on lairs.

If a lair has a 10% chance of dropping a robe, and each player wants 3 of those robes, then each player will kill the lair about 30 times. This just leads to the farming of the lair.

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Replying to Topic 'A lair crit idea,'

Post by Darge »

i like atoms idea of both utilizing n11 for something now that its just a chill spot and also giving lvl 50+'s a play ground. Make each lair drop their gear, if any is dropped, on spot so you cant sell lairs from there On one hand tho, maybe lairs that are challenging to lvl 50's should be implemented into nork instead of just nl. For example, when smasher was added for macers it was a nice challenge, even still the lairs amazing to hit will go through even nl geared players armor. But what is a challenge without reward? Seeing as nl gear is already covering alot of the gearing bases maybe have a high end class specific lair added that drops something based on what class gets a killshot. (say if a paladin gets it a nice pair of greaves drop, 4/4 and +1 move or something, or with a healer an pair of healing gloves that act as mini psi boosters for the duration of healer prots, nl teirs excluded)

One possible idea to lessen farming would to just limit the ammount of times a person can kill one lair in a given week (limited to the nork segment only). After a certain point the lair just becomes immune to your attacks or you cant even attack it anymore.

Do not remove the ammount of places mt and teleport can go, with the exception maybe of slith backdoor so people cant burn him to death for 245454 hours at some low skill. Ive always looked at mt as a tool that would be almost completely useless without its to-lair uses.
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Replying to Topic 'A lair crit idea,'

Post by Doro »

Lair control #1

Arrange it somehow that a lair is controlled with a password (aka Tiny in BL lair).

Once lair has been nuked by a large player, only a player of a lower level can trigger and enter it.

So . . . if a lvl 26 completed lair <X> then immediatley a lvl 25 may enter the same lair and respawn that same lair as they are smaller than the previous one.

Lair would be "normal" respawn UNLESS a smaller level player triggered it straight away.

This would allow for the samller players to get their kicks while the bigger ones would wait for the usual lair regen time.

Limitations would be that this would have to be controlled by account not slot otherwise players would trigger the lair four times for one account (using their progressively smaller levelled crits).

More later
ho

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Post by Crusher »

Have a questor in the lair, he's actually the lair. Tell him something to turn into the lair.

When the person starts the lair, all items are tied to him, but the lair will reject anyone not within a certain % of the level of the starter. The starter won't be able to start the lair for another day or so.

This would prevent level 55's going to kill a lair that a lvl 20 started just to get the lvl 20 gear.

The higher level the starter, the higher chance of better random drops. Level 20 healer might get random drops fit for a level 20 healer, but the level 55 pally might get random drops fit for a level 55 pally. New items would need to be added, or modified versions of older gear. Amulets are needed. Only healers/ments/fm really benefit from amulets now. Rest of the high level users wear the amulet from flisks event or one for decorations. Gaunts, sashes, boots, and helms are needed for all players. 3/3 sash from level 21 in Double Ninja, vamps from lvl 16, boots from lvl 27 from km5, helm from lvl 16, amulet from the winter event, all on a level 56 barb.

Also, lair has a timer on it so if a low level decided to be cranky and start a lair to make someone mad, the lair will reset within a few minutes or so. Also, some type of notification by saying: lair, time. The starter is the only one able to ask him this.

When the lair spawns, it makes a semi-replica of the starter. Using same class, but random gear according to the class type. Weapon of highest weapon skill. HP's are in accordance with the level and hp of the starter, maybe number of people in lair x level x hp x multiplier for class difficulty. Something reasonable enough for a solo and for people to kill in the allowed time. Maybe longer timer for a solo.
Liminv isn't allowed in the lair.
When the lair is started, the lair becomes non-slamable and the portal in and out of the lair is closed. This makes the original killers kill it in the allowed time. If they can't, the person starting needs to wait an hour to start again. If it succeeds, wait a day.
Last edited by Crusher on Thu May 05, 2005 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Kanak »

I would sure hate to see the Nork/etc experience diminished for anyone but given the scope of players some constraints do seem fair. Since lairs Nork thru Cob were designed for the equipment of the land shouldn't they also be restricted to the knowledge/skill of the lower lands.

This leaves crits X/X-2 thru 50/30** still in play.
Kill tie the lair.

1. This means if a large player wants to slaughter it or test a second skill all is fine. If they personally need the item fine. If not they leave it and the regen clocks timer is set for fast trigger.

2. If a group of questors kills the lair it works as designed.

3. If someone begs up/buys a lair and sends in a mercenary, the person getting the gear still has to be there and make some contribution ( at least thy know where the lair is and took some risk). No party or hired assassin is going to stand around for an hour waiting for someone with no skill, to make a kill on a ghosted crit.

There was a time when I bought the argument that you couldn't kill tie in Drakkar because it wasn't fair and a Barb couldn't stop. (dragon doodoo). Actually in a true since of Party play this strategy of cooperation enhances the experience. There is always the possible oops (then see 1).

Of course the above is based on the fact that any lair yielding equipment usable to a class is not immune to the skills of that class. And an unproven theory that a vested player is a more stable member of the community and likly to stay and pay longer.


** doesn't mean a 50+/30+ can't play but those plus buffs and special knowledge arn't supported.
Last edited by Kanak on Thu May 05, 2005 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ZhouYu
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Replying to Topic 'A lair crit idea,'

Post by ZhouYu »

I was thinking that #3 would be nice (considering how that might mean that the crit would be able to be killed more times, and there would be no waiting), but then I remembered that, with most of the gear I have that I got from lairs, I had... uh, "help" with. And by "help", I mean people around 50 killing the stuff. I would hit one or two times, but that's it :P. That's also something that I would like to do when I get high enough to solo that stuff. This is also in addition to the comment that someone might want a good weapon (FG hally for example) on a higher level character to skill that weapon skill.

However, how about having a quest to spawn a crit, it isn't level restricted, but you can only do it, say, once every 3 or 4 hours? This would allow people to get plenty of backup weaps/armor in case they're incredibly worried they're going to get stripped and lose their gear somehow, and it would make it nearly impossible to farm things. In addition, a party of 10 people could do it 10 times and they could each get the reward. Perhaps make the time restriction per account. Only that person and anyone in their party are allowed entrance. There would have to be something, of course, to prevent the farmers to just make multiple accounts and do the quests on them. Perhaps the drop from the lair could be tied to the person who did the quest before the lair is even entered.

There would be another problem, however, if a person did the quest and then didn't touch the lair. A time limit until the lair despawned would probably work.

Another idea, rather than a quest, would be to have the person enter the lair. That spawns the creature in a few rounds, and other people in the party could move in, and if the lair's being done for that person (example would be RD for gaunts when people used to get them for level 1's), then they can move on out of the lair before the crit spawns and thus avoid dying. The person could then go back into the lair after the crit is dead, get the item(s), and then leave.

Edit: Kanak, that would be a problem with ments, especially with things like getting a baskie shield, or with sticks, considering that you can't hit some stuff at a low skill. Now, I'm all for newbies going out and getting their gear on their own, but some people can't play like that, and need gear. The people of Drakkar are usually very willing to help in this, and some newbs wouldn't like the setup of Drakkar without starter gear to help them.
Last edited by ZhouYu on Thu May 05, 2005 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Replying to Topic 'A lair crit idea,'

Post by Crusher »

It would be a problem for all classes for kill shot ties gear. Then the easiest slip up would result in the wrong person getting it. A barb get proned and ends up having 4 rounds of attacks that you can't cancel. Yes it's possible, I've had up to 15 rounds that I couldn't clear. Playing like this would only cause a mass of flaming heads.

Ments don't have a problem ZhouYu, they are the second highest damager in the game, close to Pallies, but far from MAs.

The way that I described, high levels can't kill the lair for low levels. It would need to be a solo or party type thing.
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Post by ZhouYu »

Originally posted by CrusherMents don't have a problem ZhouYu, they are the second highest damager in the game, close to Pallies, but far from MAs.
Why I'm saying it would be a problem with ments (and I do believe I said sticks, too), is because a whole crapload of lair crits seem to be immune to Enmiss. Post 14 skill this wouldn't be a problem, but up till then it would be.
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Post by Crusher »

Most NL lairs aren't immune to enmiss, but it doesn't do enough damage to make a difference, however I'd imagine Brad would take size into consideration with this lair as it's going to be killable as well as a challenge by almost all levels. For every lair there might be a stategy, this lair... No one knows what it is. :)
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Post by ZhouYu »

Stay focused guys, we are talking about lairs in general, specifically existing lairs
I wasn't talking about NL lairs. I know not to talk about NL stuff, I've never been there. I'm talking about stuff like Aleria and Nork lairs. I don't think any ments would go into NL armed with enmiss rather than espear or elance... But like I said, I don't know NL, never been there, so I won't comment.
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Replying to Topic 'A lair crit idea,'

Post by Torch »

Why not just leave everything the way it is? No matter what happens theres ALWAYS going to be a group of people that are unhappy with the change... Some wont like faster regen... some wont like slower regen... everybody has different opinions on what THEY think will assuage the problem. Half the fun of doing a lair is the hassle of finding it home, and getting a party together for it. If you speed up the lair regen, people will kill the lair once and just camp out in lair and wait for next regen just like Seldari Queen in Aleria. If you slow down the regen time, people will just record what time they kill the lair and go back for it again 8 hours later (or however long the regen is). If you make regen random, people will keep popping in and out of lair to see if its home. I think I read something (could be mistaken) about making the gear that a lair drops tie to the slot instead of the account? If anything that would result in MORE farming... Wow Lich just dropped a robe, this will help my ment in mormar tons!! But I wish i could wear it on my pally when I hunt keep... but since it's tied to my ment I'm gonna have to farm lich until he drops a robe for my pally. Lair farming is a part of the game, theres nothing that can be done to stop it. Only thing I can see making any of this any better, is end all the 'random drop' lairs... "I need a merk uzi, but Merkon might not drop one, so I'll have to kill 45 of them just to get an ammy." But if there was a certain lair that was 100% guaranteed to drop an uzi, you could cut through all the red tape and just get what you came for. That would also stop people gearing up their babies like crazy because nobody else wants the 'unwanted' stuff that Merkon and other random drop lairs have to offer. That's my opinion, take it or leave it.

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