Acceptable & Allowable game bugs

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Roland
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Acceptable & Allowable game bugs

Post by Roland » Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:19 pm

Was just thinking , after seeing people snarl at folks who abused the last game bug. And no, I wasn't one of the abusers, but did make me think about an interesting forum topic.

Some bugs are expressly forbidden to be taken advantage of by players, yet other bugs are allowable or acceptable, thought it would be neat to see a list of the acceptable ones.

Here are the ones I could come up with:

1.) Holding an eps regen item to get the extra regen from it. Ideally this is a bug simply cause if Brad wanted people to hold an item in their hand for eps regen, then he would've made specific items to do that. Ideally an amulet is supposed to only be worn for its effectiveness, but due to how the game is programmed certain attributes on things just have to be held to receive the bonuses they give..therefore is actually a bug.

2.) Cob leather and Fungus Robes in Nork, an admitted bug, but the benefit isn't worth the trouble of reprogramming to fix the bug.

3.) Skilling ment/healer on a thiefy. Ideally thieves aren't supposed to be able to cast via eps, even by their most basic class info. But due to a bug, when you wear things that give your thiefy eps, when they cast their spells, they cast them like a ment does, and don't even get the 1/2-power cut, that they are supposed to get.

4.) Poisoned a nork weapon in Cob, to be used in Nork-based scenerios (not gonna reveal the method), but this is done regularly by many folks.

5.) Attack something that isn't in the line of sight of your crit, (ex: a ment casting spells at something around a wall). Ideally this is a bug, simply cause the coding isn't in the game to make the crits smart enuff to do anything to avoid this.

6.) Wearing theify hagplate on a non-thiefy.


If anyone can think of anymore please post, just curious about the things we take for granted, but are technically game bugs.


PS: If you've ever done any of the above things, you've abused or exploited a game bug *wink*.
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Replying to Topic 'Acceptable & Allowable game bugs'

Post by Darge » Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:28 pm

when was it said that holding an uzi type item in hand for ep regen is a bug? seems pretty normal to me considering if you try to have a 3rd on your person no extra eps are gained

and 5 just seems like ingenuity to me
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Replying to Topic 'Acceptable & Allowable game bugs'

Post by Mars » Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:40 pm

If players are still taking/having COB poisioned weapons in Nork, it is a bug and is NOT allowed.

Bottom line, with the exception of cob leather and fungus robes, NOTHING (gearwise) from COB should be in Nork at any time under any circumstances
Last edited by Mars on Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Replying to Topic 'Acceptable & Allowable game bugs'

Post by Mihey » Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:07 am

Do you have a poisoned weapon in nork, Roland? >.>

Anyway, there is this alarming thinking...

"This is a feature, not really a bug... We can do it, since I've seen other people doing it."

Remember the mining bug when everyone mined all over nork? How many people were involved?

And then that +9 hally... and THEN that bow with huge adds, +162, in maeling...

I've seen small crits wearing fungus robe and cob leather in nork. Heck, some of them even newbies that never have been to Cobrahn. Why were they handed the Cob stuff, even though it is frowned upon?

And thief skilling psi... I've seen many respectable thieves do that, thus it seems to be a trend.

About thief plate, I have no idea, generally you have to be level 25 to get it, no? And why is it named thief? Is it really supposed to be thief-only?

About the ment killing out of sight, yes it is more of an ingeniousity than a bug. Feature. A simple math: your firebreath has a range of 3 hexes, you can cast it 4 hexes away, of course it will reach 2 hexes beyond the sight. Nothing can be done about that. If they decide to hunt that way, you can call them chickens... However, what is more logical, a ment casting firebreth from safety or a ment in a chunk of HEAVY impenetrable armor standing in a HUGE zoo, not getting hit at all while casting firebreath?

Logic in this game is way wacked.

To summarize... Players learn how to exploit all of game's "features" - be it intentional or unintentional. You see many players breaking the game down into raw numbers and grunting for an exact amount of time in an exact place with an exact party in an exact gear. They will do everything to gain the "extra bit" to remain "competitive" in the game.


Btw, has everyone forgotten that thief stealing COB twigs bug? It allowed thieves under level 18 to go to cobrahn. I wonder how many people still practice that... But those thieves can easily be found by looking at the party list. However, it is kinda a moot point, since they get to "legal" 18 fairly quickly in cob...

Yet my baby crits are struggling hard to earn the meg of exp...

The question is, WHAT is the supposed way to play the game?

Look at hit docs, where people keep CCing crits. Or skill train for 1 coin and save 50 coins for assessing and spare yourself the annoying popup. Or "dexxing", killing your party members, taking them to the difficult to reach area and critcuring them. Also chain-dexxing. Or "slamming" out of lair / on door etc.

There are many more "features" that the players of the game abuse, and it is so commonly accepted it is a part of the gameplay. All in name of conveinence and "advantages".

All that is but a tip of an iceberg.
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Replying to Topic 'Acceptable & Allowable game bugs'

Post by Rygar » Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:46 am

In my tiny mind, I always thought dexing was a bug turned feature. And the same with sharing tied items with other characters on your account.


Some bugs are called features. The bugs they don't want you using/benefiting from are exploits.

And then there are the self proclaimed bug testers, wich I am glad they started treating the same as the so called exploiters.

Oh, and no wonder no one claimed that poison'd hally I found in n-4 long ago.

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Last edited by Rygar on Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Replying to Topic 'Acceptable & Allowable game bugs'

Post by max|pic » Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:15 am

if i remember right brad changed newer thief hags to only be wearable by thieves

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Replying to Topic 'Acceptable & Allowable game bugs'

Post by Izlude » Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:31 am

any class can get healer/ment skill, not just thief
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Post by Yeti » Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:29 am

yeah, considerably harder to do for non-thieves though, and not nearly as useful

as mihey pointed out, some things are borderline and noone really knows if it is going to end up being illegal until a sysop finds out about it and passes judgement.

*side note* im not talking about my particular cob gear bug, that wsa very obviously illegal

however, things like putting cob poison on nork weapons, i dont know if that was posted somewhere as illegal, but the last thing i was told, a long time ago, was that it was legal, heh. Ive had a bully dagger with poison on it in my nork lockers for AGES just so i didnt have to bother killing a bresh. And my barb always keeps a poisoned hally around to make wardens baiting easier. Heck i think every barb i know does. I never tried to hide it or anything, seeing as how i would use it right in the middle of large group lair hunts. But i honestly dont think anyone i know knew it was illegal.

Borderline, maybe. Illegal, i didnt think so.

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Replying to Topic 'Acceptable & Allowable game bugs'

Post by Gizmak666 » Sun Mar 06, 2005 4:02 pm

NOTHING (gearwise) from COB should be in Nork at any time under any circumstances
Um, no checks then eh? I might have a more expansive definition of 'gear' I suppose.


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Replying to Topic 'Acceptable & Allowable game bugs'

Post by Landros » Sun Mar 06, 2005 9:50 pm

Originally posted by Roland

1.) Holding an eps regen item to get the extra regen from it. Ideally this is a bug simply cause if Brad wanted people to hold an item in their hand for eps regen, then he would've made specific items to do that. Ideally an amulet is supposed to only be worn for its effectiveness, but due to how the game is programmed certain attributes on things just have to be held to receive the bonuses they give..therefore is actually a bug.
2.) Cob leather and Fungus Robes in Nork, an admitted bug, but the benefit isn't worth the trouble of reprogramming to fix the bug.
3.) Skilling ment/healer on a thiefy. Ideally thieves aren't supposed to be able to cast via eps, even by their most basic class info. But due to a bug, when you wear things that give your thiefy eps, when they cast their spells, they cast them like a ment does, and don't even get the 1/2-power cut, that they are supposed to get.
4.) Poisoned a nork weapon in Cob, to be used in Nork-based scenerios (not gonna reveal the method), but this is done regularly by many folks.
5.) Attack something that isn't in the line of sight of your crit, (ex: a ment casting spells at something around a wall). Ideally this is a bug, simply cause the coding isn't in the game to make the crits smart enuff to do anything to avoid this.
6.) Wearing theify hagplate on a non-thiefy.
1. Not a bug, you make a choice more protection (shield, staff), open hand to drink, or more ep regen and hold an uzi.
2. They dont work in nork, just some think they are cool by having this gear in nork. Personally i dont think it should be allowed in nork, but thats just me.
3. Guess you would consider getting more skill by party skilling a bug also? lol
4. Fix it, otherwise it should be declared that it is not a bug as it has been reported over and over and never fixed.
5. Not a bug, just some people are smarter then others and figure stuff like this out.
6. Got to be a thief to trade it, Is this any different then wearing a different type of slith robe on your crit? ie. Ma slith robe on a Barb or pally.

Q: Whats the difference in a feature and a bug?
A: Depends on who is looking.....

Well there is my 6 cents of info for the day :p

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Replying to Topic 'Acceptable & Allowable game bugs'

Post by Roland » Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:43 pm

A very basic definition of a 'bug', is a program functioning different that the programmer originally intended. Something that would make something NOT a bug, would be if a programmer specifically coded something to function a specific way, such as party skill versus solo skill, that's definately not a bug, cause Brad made intentionally programmed it to function that way.

My best guess, as to holding certain items in hand and still receiving the bonus they give, basically Brad programmed it, then later saw the effect of just holding and said to self, "hmm still gives the atts when held, hmmm lotta work to change that, but I can live with it , as is and just program around it." Other times, you notice things not working how you originally intended, but like the effect it creates.

PS: a feature is a bug whose effect is deemed as acceptable or desireable by the game programmer.

As for the shooting spells around corners while the target remains stationary may not be an actual bug, but an oversight by Brad. He's already said in the past, that he wasn't fond of things being braindead like that, just one person, not enuff hours in the day to fix those hardly imbalancing lairs , that do that. Time better spent for the majority on new content.
Last edited by Roland on Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Replying to Topic 'Acceptable & Allowable game bugs'

Post by JesseJames » Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:40 am

I believe this can be summed up quite simply: everything is a feature until stated otherwise.

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Replying to Topic 'Acceptable & Allowable game bugs'

Post by Migam » Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:15 am

Posted by Mihey
Btw, has everyone forgotten that thief stealing COB twigs bug? It allowed thieves under level 18 to go to cobrahn. I wonder how many people still practice that... But those thieves can easily be found by looking at the party list. However, it is kinda a moot point, since they get to "legal" 18 fairly quickly in cob...
:) Do recall that players RR Cob crits as well. I have done this a few times and have purchased GH for use of the twigholder then got the Admit One Pass (specifically made for this) just in case I lost twig in Nork while still under 18. I would hate to think someone would assume an under-18 thief was a bug abuser for using what was intended. ;)

Oh, and I'm fairly sure that stealing twig thing extended to any non-thief that trained up to and beyond mug. I'm assuming that bug has long been shut down. But with the use of EC bracers by some, exp 18 is not so hard to get to.


(edited to rephrase the Admit One part)
Last edited by Migam on Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Yeti » Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:36 am

the twig stelin bug still works, but it is alot more closely monitored. Last person i know of that tried it had mars asking them in pm to take the crit out of cob within 2 days

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Post by flisk » Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:03 pm

Just to let you guys know,
it's probably not a very wise idea to listen to other players who claim that something is a "feature" or a "bug".
If it has already been outlined by the sysops as being a bug then it is most certainly not a feature.

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Replying to Topic 'Acceptable & Allowable game bugs'

Post by Mihey » Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:19 pm

Then why dont you list those "bugs" as a warning?
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Replying to Topic 'Acceptable & Allowable game bugs'

Post by PieterPost » Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:19 pm

I think a list would be an excellent idea, though of course it means making unfixed bugs public knowledge. A list of the generally known bugs/features and their (il)legalness would be great though (ie all the bugs/features mentioned in this thread sofar).

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Last edited by PieterPost on Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Replying to Topic 'Acceptable & Allowable game bugs'

Post by landlubber » Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:26 pm

You're confusing "bug" and "exploit". A "bug" is something that does not function as intended. An "exploit" is something that does function as intended, but can also be used to produce unforeseen results. Whether or not said exploit is acceptable, largely depends upon what the results are. This should be common sense. If it produces a minor benefit, it will likely be unchanged; a way to reward player ingenuity and probably not "unbalancing" enough to be worth the trouble to fix it. There will never be a "bug" list, nor will there ever be an "exploit"/"feature" list. A bug list would only invite players to use them and a exploit list would do the same. A "feature" list would spoil a lot of the fun in figuring out a better strategy of accomplishing some task and completely destroy the reward incentive for taking the time to figure it out yourself.

If you're smart enough to figure out an unacceptable exploit, you should be smart enough to realize it and not use it.

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Replying to Topic 'Acceptable & Allowable game bugs'

Post by Faramir » Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:32 pm

You're confusing "bug" and "exploit".
Why are you acting like exploit is a noun? it's actually a verb.

Bug = A computer bug is an error, flaw, mistake, failure, or fault in a computer program that prevents it from working correctly or produces an incorrect result. Bugs arise from mistakes and errors, made by people, in either a program's source code or its design.

This is fine but becomes a problem when people 'exploit' bugs....;)

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Post by Anarion » Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:32 pm

Actually, it can be used as noun.
"ex·ploit (ksploit, k-sploit)
n.
An act or deed, especially a brilliant or heroic one." (http://www.dictionary.com). Though you are correct in the fact that it may also be used as a verb...
It is really hard to know what is wrong and right, especially if a sysop says nothing about the subject. They could only really speak about the ones most people kno of i suppose. Some are things people don't really recognize as being all that wrong like. skill training for 1 coin if ur short on coin or really cheap. This isn't hugely benefitial, just saves a short trip to grab some coin. Others are hugely benefitial, like being able to wear gear not native to the area, so you can hunt in an area you wouldn't normally be able to. A line has to be drawn somewhere so that people will kno if something is right or wrong.

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Post by Yeti » Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:42 pm

perfect example of not knowing if its wrong is the poisoned weapons

it provides a very minor benefit on only one or 2 hunts with only certain parties. Certainly nothing unbalancing. The poison kills 99% of the non-lair npcs in nork too quickly to be effective help when skilling or xping, and if your doing it for loot, the breshard stiletto provides an even higher level of poison and will work even better.

Pre-this thread, i had never heard that it was illegal, and infact had heard many times that it was allowed.

Without an official posting of some sort, bugs such as this one will certainly be used, and when/if people are caught they can claim ignorance to the illegality, since there wasnt an official posting

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Replying to Topic 'Acceptable & Allowable game bugs'

Post by dhavin » Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:23 pm

Originally posted by Mars_Sysop


If players are still taking/having COB poisioned weapons in Nork, it is a bug and is NOT allowed.

Bottom line, with the exception of cob leather and fungus robes, NOTHING (gearwise) from COB should be in Nork at any time under any circumstances
Any ETA on when this sort of exploit will be fixed?

Regarding other things, wow; I didn't know that thief skilling psi was a bug/exploit! I've done it, because, every thief and fan site reports that it can be done. I naturally assumed that it was a valid method of increasing the thief's usefulness in the Psi arena.

I realize that it's not entirely a good idea to list all known bugs, but is there a place where very well known bugs can be posted? If I'm left to using fan sites as Drakkar documentation, I run the risk of accidentally doing something I shouldn't be doing. :P
Last edited by dhavin on Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Merlin » Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:51 pm

theif skilling psi was just roland talking about stuff he considers bugs, just like Ztink considers exping in dornar a bug, but he still does it, i dare say roland skills psi on his theif aswell.


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Replying to Topic 'Acceptable & Allowable game bugs'

Post by Roland » Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:07 am

I was referring to skillin ment/healer on a thiefy as a bug, because if you get down to the nitty gritty of what a bug is, technically that is a bug. From every piece of documentation put out by Brad and the Drakkarzone crew over the years, it is well documented that thieves cast their spells via hps, and also get a 50% cut in spell skill strength..but wearing gear that gives the thiefy eps and eps regen undoes all that. Do you honestly think Brad originally intended thieves to be able to do that? Do you think he intentionally coded them, so they could do that? I honestly doubt it. Just a result of how the game is coded, and an unintended result of that, thereby technically making it a bug. But the work that would be necessary for that not to happen, isn't worth it, since it doesn't matter that much, in the whole sceme of things.

Also, imho, skillin up ment/healer on a thiefy isn't worth the time and effort. Sure it would let you transmute at a higher rate. But, the time spent skillin it up to that point, would offset the coin you gain from higher skill lvl xmute. As for the few useful spells that thieves get, the duration increase definately doesn't make it worthwhile. Is more of a show-off type of thing to skill up, than anything else, for mere bragging rights. If I'm wrong on this, please let me know..but from every angle I can see, it is just a waste of time.
Last edited by Roland on Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Crusher » Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:34 am

It's really only useful for low skills. In cob, I can hold a lori staff and cast skill 40 Liminv/Reveal (skill 20 ment). In NL, I can only cast skill 28 Liminv/Reveal (Skill 14 Ment). It's good if you can incorporate it into your normal wear gear.
Last edited by Crusher on Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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