Rules of Conduct Must Be Changed

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Ztinktoof
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Rules of Conduct Must Be Changed

Post by Ztinktoof » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:00 am

You have exclusivity to LOOT only on the HEX you are currently standing on, or on UNSEARCHED corpses.

This, among others, is being horribly abused by a core group of players. If this rule, or the behaviour of the abusers is not adjusted, we will start following it to the absolute letter and expose it for the nonsense that it is.

With a lot of people playing and areas becoming crowded, a simple rule is leap-frog one screen shot beyond any people you encounter. Do so quickly so as to minimize dragging monsters off the other players.

If a group wants to stick to one small area, they can be accomodated. If they want to wander, they can do so without disturbing any fights in progress.

Monster regen has been vastly improved recently. Leap-frogging works well in virtually every area of every segment. It has become the de facto accepted behaviour in crowded DL areas like Forge and Mormar.

It is time to do away with all the "one-hex" rules of conduct.
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Post by Mihey » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:26 am

There is one rule I follow...

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Yes, common sense... I dont do to others what I do not want to be done to me. ;)
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Post by Merlin » Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:37 am

i think i already posted a suggestion for a change to this rule, or something very similar, it was ignored. and this was AFTER i was asked to post it by a sysop.

check this thread : http://kingdomofdrakkar.com/newforums/v ... php?t=4416


This was all i got
Originally posted by Meric_SYSOP
As a general rule of thumb.

If another player is detracting from your drakkar experience, I would expect a PM about it .. as sysops we try to resolve these issues without upsetting either party. This been said, I would like to think that you have tried to resolve the problem peacefully yourself first.

Many problems can be resolved by simply talking calmly, agressive words will often make someone close up .. and make comming to a resolve a lot harder.
so remember that next time someone is stealing from you in your area, just talk nice to them, or PM meric. oh wait, cant PM people on DND, i forgot, send 345346346 e-mail to brad about it, yeah he'll love that.

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Last edited by Merlin on Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Mihey » Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:46 am

I sent email to help@drakkarzone.com and I got the reply soon-ish... It is nice when you know your mail has been acknowledged... in some games, they never tell you they read it, and then ignore you for "spamming" them with additional mails...
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Post by Athena » Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:35 am

All fine and dandy when an actual sysop who is on duty answers pms when something is happening. All too often, it is left to the players to try and work things out between themselves. Sometimes talking things out can fix many problems and thereby avoid a nasty situation. Other times, when communication is failing and tempers are rising, things get ugly.

Since I began playing Drakkar many years ago, it has always been common courtesy to stay at least one screen away from another person hunting. Intrusion on the same screen and hunting the zoo someone else is hunting there but remaining on your own "sacred hex" is downright rude, plain and simple. The current rule needs to be changed to more closely follow what has been a long standing tradition of hunting etiquette in Drakkar.
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Post by Stormwind » Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:59 am

Even in the old days, there were always a few folks who had to cause problems. It's the nature of the beast when real live people are thrown together in any situation.

The rules are part of the problem, but the real crux of the issue is enforcement.

You have to have very active sysops who have the power and authority to punish troublemakers. You also need to give them enough flexibility to enforce the "Spirit" of the rules, not the letter. Where are the deputies that everyone made such a fuss over?
Too many folks walk the line of the letter of the rules, and Brad and some of the sysops allow it to happen.

Make repeat offenders suffer to such a degree that it just isn't worth causing problems.
Last edited by Stormwind on Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Morgar » Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:42 pm

Originally posted by Stormwind

Where are the deputies that everyone made such a fuss over?
After all the fuss that was made the last time, no one in their right mind would want to be one.

Changing the rules fails to address the problem since most people now days ignore the rules anyway.

Certain people get added to my "Do not help" list for their behavior. If more people kept such a list behavior would improve or people would find themselves hunting alone.
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Post by Elessar » Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:30 pm

Originally posted by Stormwind
Where are the deputies that everyone made such a fuss over?
Let's keep in mind what the whole concept of deputies was actually about:

Originally posted by Brad
1) There will be MANY deputies
2) Several will not be known by the community
3) Their purpose is primarily to monitor chat for freebies coming in and disrupting it during off hours
4) Their powers will primarily consist of chat control
How is a chat monitor the solution to these problems? From what I can see here, they would have had no real in game powers and might not have been known as being anything other than players by the community. That would mean a "deputy" would have no authority, real or perceived, over other players, wouldn't it? What could they do when someone is moving in on someone else's hunting grounds, PKing them and popping all their loot in the upperkeep? Ask them politely not to?

That doesn't sound like what the game needs when people are being jerks.. it needs active real sysops and real accountibility for a player's actions.

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Post by Stormwind » Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:10 pm

Morgar,

While it may make you feel better having a "Do not help" list, it does nothing for the jerks in the game. In case you haven't checked out the Buying and Selling section recently anyone who takes the time to make some coin can get just about any gear they want. Having friends in game is not an issue for folks who can make coin.


Elessar,

I'm well aware of what the deputies were supposed to do. The point was they were supposed to be a solution to a similar problem (annoying people who spoil the game) and nothing ever happened with it. Active sysops with overlapping schedules and serious consequences for ones actions are what I suggested. That and enforcing the spirit of the rules instead of the letter of the laws.
Last edited by Stormwind on Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Elessar » Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:17 pm

Originally posted by Stormwind

The point was they were supposed to be a solution to a similar problem (annoying people who spoil the game) and nothing ever happened with it.
I must have missed the post from Brad that said that nothing ever happened with it. My apologies.

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Post by Ambrose » Tue Nov 16, 2004 6:22 pm

We need a "Players Court" ... complete with pillory and an NPC to sell disgusting thing to throw at the miscreant in the stocks. I'd be happy to flesh out the mechanism if the ptb are interested :)

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Post by Morgar » Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:02 am

Originally posted by Stormwind

Morgar,

While it may make you feel better having a "Do not help" list, it does nothing for the jerks in the game. In case you haven't checked out the Buying and Selling section recently anyone who takes the time to make some coin can get just about any gear they want. Having friends in game is not an issue for folks who can make coin.
I know it won't get rid of the jerks in the game. Nothing is going to do that short of a radical change in how the sysops ban and lock people. Once upon a time Drak was filled with people that would respect each others space. People never used to hunt within site of another player. But thats all changed now, and I don't see any way of bringing it back again. A long long time ago (back in classic) Shaihulud pulled me aside and gave me the low down on how to hunt. Don't hunt within site of another player, don't kill any crits if you can see another player on the screen, ask before you loot etc. In all the time I've wasted in the steel flower, I've yet to see any player tell those things to some newbie. And the few times I've tried to tell them to someone, another player always butted in with contradicting comments. As a consequence, I no longer bother trying to tell someone anymore.

I've long held the opinion that its not so much the game rules at fault as it is we, the players. No one bothers to tell the newbies and by the time they aren't newbies anymore, the bad habits have been formed and are that much harder to break. The current situation exists not because of some rules, it exists because we allowed it to happen and did little to prevent it.

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Post by Stormwind » Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:28 am

But remember that back in those days folks paid $4-$6 an hour to play, and if you stepped out of line you got killed, stripped, gear popped and fed to mama. In terms of time (which translated directly into money) spent to recover from that, it hurt. Now that you do not have such a deterrent in place, the sysops need to come up with something equally effective.

You can spend time training newbs, and it might help if they are very young players. Don't tell me though that teen+ players don't know right from wrong. Many of the folks causing problems are older, experienced players taking advantage of the lack of action by the powers that be.
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Post by Morgar » Wed Nov 17, 2004 4:28 pm

Originally posted by Stormwind


In terms of time (which translated directly into money) spent to recover from that, it hurt. Now that you do not have such a deterrent in place, the sysops need to come up with something equally effective.
Ordinarily I'd agree with you, but putting the responsibility into the laps of the sysops is unfair. The sysops work, well sometimes...maybe, when the moon is blue and its the 16th tuesday of every month, and sometimes they are even logged in, even if they are marked afk, or dnd or sometimes completely invisible. 90% of the pk steel flower incidents occur when there are no sysops logged in, and the remaining 10% of them happen when they are logged in, but off on a jelly donut break.

So please, do not expect the game sysops to solve this problem. What I fail to understand is, how a rule change is expected to change the way people behave when people are already ignoring the existing rules?

I'll also note that I found it highly ironic that when the concept of deputy sysop was thrown out on the boards for general comment, we had a brief moment where suddenly the existing sysops became highly visible in the game. And then it faded out again.
You can spend time training newbs, and it might help if they are very young players. Don't tell me though that teen+ players don't know right from wrong. Many of the folks causing problems are older, experienced players taking advantage of the lack of action by the powers that be.
I will agree with this. I never assigned any age to the problem players. And more surprisingly I've had problems with players, tagged from formerly respectable guilds, that should have known better. The PK attempts by FF'ing dragons into the steel flower and then kicking them into hostile acts is a perfect example. A ment capable of ff'ing a red or silver dragon into the steel flower should know better and has ample opportunity to learn the rules of the game.

I don't know what the solution is. But I still suspect that the player community will have more to do with solving it than any rule changes.
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Post by Yeti » Wed Nov 17, 2004 5:25 pm

only thing that would change it is bringing back the old rules. If someone is out of line, kill them, dex them to mama lair and stun them as bait for a very short mama rd hunt. Anyone who honestly believes the rules is what govern peoples conduct is very mistaken. People respond to reinforcement, either positive or negative. Without a reward for not making people angry <such as not getting eaten> or a punishment for making other people mad <such as getting eaten> the people will not change their annoying "im a noob" habits.

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Post by Rosey » Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:02 pm

I'm digressing a little here, but one of the things I think that has affected the community, and yes I know that Brad is on the verge of changing it back, is the inability of smaller players to join and create their own guilds.

I really do believe that guilds in the lower size levels gave players something to aim for and also a hell of a lot of fun in partying up and taking on the smaller lairs. Guilds also usually had some kind of rules and standards of behaviour - you could easily see the bad apple player who was constantly being kicked out of different guilds (no offence to any bad apples out there!) :) and also most of the guilds set rules and standards of behaviour.

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Post by Ztinktoof » Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:12 am

Do not assume that the worst offenders are noobs or guildless players. Quite the opposite, in fact. There is a problem with experienced, well-geared and rather large players following the letter of the law and outright flaunting it.

The current written rules fly in the face of years of game tradition, common sense, and good manners.
Last edited by Ztinktoof on Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Stormwind » Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:36 am

Bringing back the old rules will *not* work. Making new rules is not in itself the answer either. There is no point in having rules when there is no enforcement. New guilds also will not change anything. Guilds have no power anymore to change what happens in Drakkar. In the old days it was nearly impossible to grow without help from a guild. That is no longer the case. You can just buy/beg whatever you need when there is no group available. There are plenty of players more interested in coin than scruples.

You need to have sysops who are active, alert and who have the power/authority to dish out punishments that will seriously hurt players who insist on taking advantage of others. The rules need to be reworked, yes. But we need more sysops and more active sysops. They need to have the flexibility to enforce the spirit of what the rules are trying to accomplish.

Example: A lot of NL folks have experienced this I'm sure.

Party of players assembles at Jil to kill merkon. A player decides he wants to mess them up. So he grabs a nitro, charms and kills merkon 1. According to the current rules this is LEGAL. But it is obvious the player was intentionally disrupting others play. Yes, you can say someone from the group should have been shadowing merkon, etc. But thats not the point. It was mischief and it happens over and over.

A punishment must not only fit the crime, but it also must fit the size of the player(regardless of which account they may be using).

Better to lose 1 troublemaker customer than 10 who quit playing from frustration.
Last edited by Stormwind on Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Kanak » Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:24 pm

Dissertation: Rules and Community

Chapter 1: We reape what we sow

The ideal Drakkarian community and social values are based on an Old Code, not found in most of todays online games. Many players come from an environment where they have learned less civil manners ("Do unto others before they do unto you" and "Get big Get respect" come to mind.) The more respectful community role is just not a Drakkarinn tradition, but one of its greatest assets.

Learning the "Old Code" takes time, thru social interaction and personal investment in building your role playing personnna. IMHO - Shortcutting development of new players, by handing them big gear or power leveling them thru the roof greatly reduces thier vested interest in the game and the crit. Made crits don't have the time to learn real strategy, diverse game knowledge or gain an appreciation for local social values. Made crits are more likly to continue the cycle until we are left with a community of huge rude crits that can't find the bathroom in SF.

Over time, if established players take the time to mentor the newbies, much can be done to restore an ancient civil society. This means "show them","teach them" and get involved when you hear a MADE crit propose a "Get Big Quick" scheme. A little walking, in the snow up-hill boths ways like grandpa, may not be quick but it does build good character and pride in advancement.

A few miscreants lend color to the game but when general moral values slide both the legacy and future of Drakkar are in danger. The game doesn't have big advertising, mega graphics or 1P shootum-up thrills. It's key asset is structured advancement and the community that supports it.

Chapter 2: Morals and the Law

You can not code morality! Trying to do so just creates more problems in other areas. You can create game rules for every small infraction, until the list becomes a book and eventually the book is the size of the US IRS tax code. At some point rules will conflict with other rules and you will need a lawyer to represent you before the sysop.

Drakkar really needs only ONE RULE. Causing grief to an inocent player is punishable. The severity and punishment to be determined by the judge (Sysop or extreme lock circumstances appealed to Brad). The continual and constant act of taking trivial events to a sysop should be considered as causing grief to sysops. Players can and should work out many misunderstandings and infringements themselves or using community presures.

Chapters 3: Limiting personal judgement and self defense.

In the past few years many coding changes have been made which curtail the ability of players to adjust attitude or defend themselves in a responsible manner. Example: Did removing the ability for a player to strip a player corpse really improve the game? I'm sure it saved some headaches for sysops (but was really a knee-jerk reaction to an event gone bad). I however respectfully submit that the possibility, not the action, kept many a jerk in line.

The finest player interaction system that I have ever seen was the LOK mark system. It allowed 3 PKs/strips which could be forgiven or erased after many months. Kill a 4th and a Vortex opened from the sky and you were gone (no sysop / no muss / no fuss / rampent player killing was not welcome). What did it do? It kept careless magic users in line and a rude player never knew when his actions would become so grievous that a player would take a mark just to enforce thier personal rights.

So whats the point? Give players back the tools to settle minor matters. "Speak softly but carry a big stick"

End of lecture..............

On topic: Changing hunt area/looting rules to screen or larger will be hard to enforce. And we have to stop running off all the good sysops first. The ones left can not be everywhere and new GOOD ones don't grow on trees.;)

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Post by Yeti » Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:13 pm

eh, for all you sports fans, you may have heard the expression "good foul"

well, i know i personally have happily accepted a few 24 hour locks for the privelege of exerting my will upon annoying players

for every action there is consequenses, just gotta know what your going to get and deal with it

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Post by Tristram » Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:00 pm

Looks like that "old code" is wonderful for getting instant gratification if you're big and the offender that PO'd you is much smaller. You get to be judge and jury !! But, what about when the reverse is the case. What? You mean you weren't aware that big guys abuse small guys? That "old code" doesn't do us much good.
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Post by Darge » Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:22 pm

ummm zt i think that might actually be against the rules set forth, since the player who killed merk 1 certainly didnt have sufficeint force to do the entire encounter, and well if that isnt against the rules its bs pure an simple until you show me one person soloing d6 merk, or well 3 i guess now :)
Last edited by Darge on Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Dragonslayer » Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:57 am

Originally posted by Tristram


Looks like that "old code" is wonderful for getting instant gratification if you're big and the offender that PO'd you is much smaller. You get to be judge and jury !! But, what about when the reverse is the case. What? You mean you weren't aware that big guys abuse small guys? That "old code" doesn't do us much good.
Actually, i was small in iEN, and the possibility of getting stripped and all kept any potential PK'ers in check, and if i did get attacked, i could usualy find someone big to get my revenge and put him in pally jail.
But thew old code was not bad to small players at all.
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Post by Ambrose » Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:14 am

Originally posted by Rosey


I'm digressing a little here, but one of the things I think that has affected the community, and yes I know that Brad is on the verge of changing it back, is the inability of smaller players to join and create their own guilds.

I really do believe that guilds in the lower size levels gave players something to aim for and also a hell of a lot of fun in partying up and taking on the smaller lairs. Guilds also usually had some kind of rules and standards of behaviour - you could easily see the bad apple player who was constantly being kicked out of different guilds (no offence to any bad apples out there!) :) and also most of the guilds set rules and standards of behaviour.

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Post by Merlin » Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:28 am

the rules its bs pure an simple
Yeah thats about right.


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