Huge Party Skill Nerf

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Ztinktoof
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Huge Party Skill Nerf

Post by Ztinktoof »

Well, it looks like a per kill cap was not enough for some reason. Some recent puzzling skill gains spurred me to conduct a test. Unless I got something horribly wrong, it looks like level and/or skill differences between players in a party may exact a huge skill penalty.

Here is one test I conducted...

48/30 pally and 19/15 fm

fm was paid ahead to 11% on psi.

1. fm solo with espear
10 Alerian wolves killed
0.04% skill gain

2. fm+pally partied and on hex, fm casting espear, pally striking
10 alerian wolves killed
0.01% skill gain

I need some other players to conduct similar tests with various level and skill differences. There used to be a skill nerf with parties larger then 5, so you probably want to keep parties smaller than that for your test.

If true, this basically will divide the community further into the large and the small and never the twain shall meet.

Personally, I thought the 0.03% cap was just about right, Larger players could help smaller players skill, but it would still take a boat load of time to skill up.

I'd like to reserve judgement until others weigh in, but I have tested party skill with a variety of level differences in other areas and it really sucks.
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Post by Kanak »

You say that you tested other places. I assume some of those were outside Aleria.
Aleria has always been a bit strange on skill. The one time level cap actually drove one on my crits out a few years ago.

However I'm not sure the cause of the current observation is caused by a gap in size of party members. Last nite I hunted Aleria using a little 19/17 ment with a 17/16 healer. (seems similar in size to me) Used the standard roast um and then kill with espear and assult. The skill return for NW and SW caves was less than 0.2% for slightly over an hours hunt.

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Post by Ztinktoof »

Some additional tests...

13/10 MA Full Trained
Killed 5 N-5 thumpers
MA skill solo: 1.11%
MA skill with 19/15 ment: 1.10%
MA skill with 48/30 pally: 0.24%

Killed 5 N-5 Berserkers
MA Solo: 1.13%
MW with 48/30 pally: 0.23%

So level/skill difference of up to 6 does not seem to affect party skill.

Some difference between pally and lower skill/level characters is triggering a penalty of about 80% reduction in skill gain.
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Post by Ztinktoof »

> You say that you tested other places..

I just posted a formal Nork test, alt2.

I was doing some informal testing in Cob and in NL earlier in the week and was receving horrendous skill gains despite killing lots of monsters.

This morning I was hunting Seldar forest for a couple of hours and expected a few percentage points of skill gain, maybe 3% to 6%. I didn't even get 1%.

A common guild tactic is for a big player to escort smaller players or alternate characters through areas for some decent, but not outrageous skill gain. Now, it pretty much sucks across the board. So I will now be unwelcomed in skill parties by the smaller players in the guild ;-((

It also means if I am hunting a desireable location in Cob for coin and XP, most of the current Cob community will pretty much have to go elsewhere as I already suck up most of the xp and now I will nerf their skill.

I have not tried any of the "exploits" because they are boring and I would rather "play" the game. I'll give them a test and see what happens.
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Post by Crusher »

I've heard that skill 30 gains no skill. Maybe this is why you gained so little skill? If it's not the reason, the reason is that the high skilled/high leveled character "leeches" more exp/skill. It could also be that the high skill kills things so fast that it should take more of those to do the equal. In essence that if the high skill would only get 0.001% per kill, the lower skill should only get 0.001% per skill.

Did that make any sense?

I will do some tests when I get my account back. I'm 37/27 or 28 and I will party with a low level/skill character to see how much percent I get compared to how much they get.
Last edited by Crusher on Thu Apr 15, 2004 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Frozboz »

Lemme get this straight.. you think it's an "exploit" for a paladin to parry dornar-6 while a ment firebreaths offscreen and the party gets experience, yet you want to be able to gain "decent" skill on a small crit by taking your 30th skill paladin and annihilating Aleria in a party?

Just checking.

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Post by Arithawn »

Sure beats raiding DP piles outta lairs.....
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Post by Atom »

Yeah that really sucked when we dpd to laz and someone came up and raided them.

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Post by Kanak »

Originally posted by Ztinktoof
Some additional tests...
13/10 MA Full Trained
Killed 5 N-5 Berserkers
MA Solo: 1.13%
MW with 48/30 pally: 0.23%
Lets put it back on track with Ztinks original intent:D

I just want the 1.13% for the 5 Bezerkers:p

13/10 MA (no GH bonus rd gaunts modest equipment - paid skill)

Solo
5 Bezerkers 0.18%

Party skill 10 ment
5 Bezerkers 0.17%

Party skill 24 Barb
5 Bezerkers 0.19% (ma kills)
5 Bezerkers 0.11% (barb 1 shots)

Party skill 30 MA
5 Bezerkers 0.11% (small ma kills)
5 Bezerkers 0.01% (larger ma burps)


Reference check skill 10 ment solo using emiss 5 bezerkers 0.19%

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Post by Ztinktoof »

You ask a valid question about what is an "exploit". Lets look at some real-life numbers.

Getting 50meg to 100meg xp per hour depending on party configuration is a tad different than gaining skill capped at 0.03% per critter.

Theoretical maximum two-player party skill gain given

1) one of the players one-shots the critters and
2) the monsters are constantly spawning where the players are standing and
3) the monsters killed hit the 0.03% skill cap for the smaller player and
4) all players are uber-geared so they take little to no damage

would be about 18% an hour. Yes, that would be an exploit. And if such an area existed it should be reported and nerfed.

I have not found such a place. Not even close. Have you? I would be VERY interested to know about it (as would Brad I am sure.)

Except for very low-skilled players where the 0.03% cap doesn't even apply (around skill 12ish and under), we are talking about around 4% per hour skill gain IF trained. Thats pretty decent, but can be sustained for only a couple of levels then one must move on to other areas.

At some point, areas that need to be hunted become very dangerous, require the smaller player to have very decent gear that is hard to come by, and frequently requires larger parties and/or the liberal use of haste and all the side-effects that entails.

All sorts of self-limiting factors kick in, like occasional death, outkilling the regen rate, cirtters are no longer one-shots, blind, stun, need to get more IH, etc.

Dornar has no self-limiting factor. Any character of any size need only stand there and invisioed should a monster wander in. An occasional death is small price to pay for gaining a level every 1 to 4 days, depending on how fanatical a player you are.

If Brad changes it people are going to be pissed at me I am sure. But they really need to ask themselves if a level a day is a reasonable, but 4% per hour skill for some limited skill range is not.
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Post by Frozboz »

You're comparing experience gain and skill gain, which really is like comparing apples and oranges. The majority of people in Drakkar are content to borderland-max out skill in only one skill category (psi crits want 30 psi, pallys want 30 skill in a weapon, MAs 30 skill MA, etc). Alright, so that means to borderland-max your character, you need 30 skill levels and 55 experience levels. Experience, then, should be gained at a better rate than skill since there are more (almost twice as many) experience levels to get compared to skill. So your argument that since it's possible for one to gain experience at one level per day, skill should also move at a comparable rate, is flawed. Skill "should", in a perfect world, roughly move twice as slow as experience.
All sorts of self-limiting factors kick in, like occasional death, outkilling the regen rate, cirtters are no longer one-shots, blind, stun, need to get more IH, etc.

Dornar has no self-limiting factor.
Dornar has plenty of self-limiting factors. We must suck or something, because during our time experiencing in dornar, plenty of people died. Crits would wander in or spawn nearby, so we'd have to slow down to invis - or die. We out-killed the regen on numerous occasions on d-6. We also had to refill on IH's. So, don't mean to nitpick here, but dornar is self-limiting for some of the reasons you presented for your skill scenario.

I still fail to see the why a ment/paladin flaming dornar - an area that challenges any non-primal crit - is an exploit, while a level 48 paladin mass-slaying Aleria (who has vastly outgrown the area) to inflate the skill of a much smaller crit is not. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. *Shrug*, I see no problem with either. Again, we're comparing skill vs. experience. That may be the problem?

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Post by Ztinktoof »

> So your argument that since it's possible for one to gain experience at one level per day, skill should also move at a comparable rate, is flawed.

It would be flawed IF I said that. I did not. Not even close. When you do stuff like this, it just makes my troll alarm go off and kills any chance of rational discussion of a game we like to play.

Brad has said 3% per hour skill gain paid is reasonable. Having big players in your guild help you get another point or two an hour sounds very reasonable to me.

>> Dornar has plenty of self-limiting factors. We must suck or something, because during our time experiencing in dornar, plenty of people died.

PM me. I will tell you how to get 50meg to 100meg an hour with just an occasional death. As you know, I am always willing to help people not suck at the game.
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Post by Yeti »

eh, a level a day is easy even in cob. I can make xp in cob about as easily solo as a pally/ment duo can in NL, and im but a wee puny mentling.

seriously, to me the pally/ment scenario in nl seems like the pitome of party cooperation. the big bad pally goes out into a zoo of things that could oneshot him, and that he may as well not bother trying to hurt, while the wee wuss ment stands around the corner and prots him and then throws magic at him to take out the critters attacking him.

Much the same system is used in most other MMORPGs i have played, one tank character runs arroung aggro'ing all the baddies to a point where they wont change target, and then a ment type character comes over and AOEs them dead while the meat shield tries his best not to die. Seems perfectly logical to me.



Now to actually add to the thread at hand :

i dont have any finite numbers, because i find formal testing for the most part useless. however, i have noticed that there are several hunting situations that seem to make skill gain good/bad

1) the more times you swing at something in 1 round, the more skill you seem to get from it <examples are RP mas and Maxxing pallies, they seem to generate a load of skill for the party>

2) if you have a person stealing or mugging, it generates LOADS of skill for the party.

3) if you are partied with a skill 30 stick, you get LAME skill, even if you are relatively high skilled <25+>

4) the higher the other people in the parties skill is comparede to yours <excluding skill 30> the more skill you seem to gain per hour

5) Haste seems to give the hasted person 2x the skill they would reciee unhasted, however it does not affect the overall party skill in any noticable way.

now, after these observations, i have formulated what i think is a rough estimate of how the skill is calculated in a party <im probably totally wrong, but im gonna go through it anyhow, so deal with it>

Each crit is worth a certain number of skill points <easily tested by doing skill without kill options such as mugging> when you kill the creature, a certain number of those skill points is given to you, and reflected in the form of % skill gained. Now, if you in a party, the highest skill person sets the bar as to what number of skill points each person is recieving. Now, this means if the highest skill person is killing in say, upper keep, they will most likely still be recieving decent skill. Since they are higher skilled, they may be getting 10000 skill points which is equal to .001% skill. for the other party members, this means they are getting 10000 skill points which is equal to maybe 5% if they are low skilled, however its capped at .03 and this is the gain they get. Since a skill 30 stick recieves jack diddly nothing for skill, the party in turn recieves jack diddly nothing

in your test in aleria, th larger crit was probably getting .000000001% per kill or something similar, which translated into .18% skill or whatever for the smaller crit. However, the smaller crit killing by himself was able to get full skill from each kill, thus getting a much better skill gain.

if i could find a high skilled stick to party with me i would repeat your test in upper, i expect the results would be quite different. Try it using a skill 25ish stick partied with a skill 6-7 critter, i think you will see what i mean :D

then again, maybe im wrong in which case im sorry for wasting your time and mine <no im not>

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Post by Frozboz »

Sorry Zt, I thought that was your argument, that skill should be better than it is or equivalent to exp gains... Didn't mean to antagonize.
Last edited by Frozboz on Thu Apr 15, 2004 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Ravaillac »

I dont understand the whole premise of this thread.

Level 50s should not be partied with level 19s AND expect to be gaining skill and experience while doing it.

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Post by Ztinktoof »

Up until last reset, skill from a directed attack was independent of who got the kill shot.

A critter gave X amount of skill. Everyone in the party got the same X skill points, subject to the 0.03% skill cap for their skill level.

If you had guild house and/or gold plan, i don't remember exactly which, you got some additional skill points after the 0.03% cap was applied.

If you do not understand how to conduct meaningful tests, PM me and I will be glad to help you. If you are not interested in testing, that is cool too. You are more than welcome to call my tests meaningless, but I get to call your observations unfounded. >grin<

Many classes hit skill 30 well before they hit level 50. They still find Cob enjoyable and, in fact, necessary to grow their characters. But now they will no longer be welcome in Cob parties.

I hope the current situation is a mistake or a bug. People who do not follow the forums will be getting horrible skill gain and they won't have a clue why. And it screws socializing among players just because of a level difference.

Remember, I am not talking about a skill 20 player suddenly getting 20% skill gain an hour just because they are partied with a skill 30. I am talking about adding a couple of percentage points to skill gain IF the smaller player is adequately geared to start with.

Cob burn parties in Ancients and under Arun should have been nerfed ages ago. That includes pallys with firesticks and pallys with EC swords in NL. It shatters the illusion of adventuring through a land, horribly inflates players to the point where they think the Dornar exploit is a reasonable feature of the game.

Ments should be the level-up kings and queens with their area spells. But things have been way out of hand for so long now I can understand Brad's reluctance to change it.
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Post by Demonaic »

i think yeti had it right. the skill gain of the bigger person is proportianate to the skillgain of the smaller person. so if the bigger person is gaining let's say even .01% the smaller person might be gaining say 10% to their .01%. at skill 30 you get .00% and the smaller person gets well, jack nada to squat. but the skill 30 still gives 'something'. try testing this with say a 30/28 and a 20/15 crit. you 'may' notice something quite different:sarc
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Post by Virag »

If Ztinktoof's numbers are right, then something has indeed changed. There used to be no difference who killed the crit, it gave x number of skill points. If a large player partied with a smaller one, each kill regardless of who killed it (though obviously the large player got the lion's share) the smaller player gained skill off each kill as if he wasn't in a party at all. This applied for skill 30, high skills, all skills as far as I could tell. Whether this is good or bad I'll leave to the rest of you to argue<G>. But there has been a change if his numbers are accurate.

-Virag
Last edited by Virag on Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by freak »

Ztinktoof, if you think msing with firesticks and then excalibur in NL is an "exploit" then I think the longest running "exploit" in this game needs to be finally fixed. That "exploit" is hally users being able to hit off hex. Because as it stands now if your not a hally pally(poor MA's are even in worse shape) then unless it's a non-prone hunt, which is extremely rare, you might as well NOT come to the hunt because your focus thrustrike is pathetic. The fact that my pally is so useless on lairs is making me frustrated that I wasted my time on another crit that is useless in lairs. So I'm building a new crit that can actually partake in lairs hunts. I'd give up excalibur in a heartbeat for a GS weapon that allows me to hit offhex, without ever looking back.

I do admit that excali is a big advantage if you want to powerlevel yourself, but even at 33/29 I make alot less experience than hally/LS users can make in COB using firesticks in several places or that barbs can make in ud4/ud5. However given how exp scales with level in NL I'm sure I'll catch up eventually.

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Post by Ztinktoof »

>>That "exploit" is hally users being able to hit off hex.

Not sure that really qualifies as an exploit in the common sense that it is used. But I understand your frustration.

Hally pallys are a huge asset in lair hunts where proning is key to controlling the monster's ability to attack. On some of the big NL lairs, there can be a significant drop in the hunt time when some hally pallys are present.

On the minus side, the best Nork hally cannot compare in damage to certain weapons, like the saber. On non-proning hunts, a high skilled, hasted maxstriking ls pally does megadamage. The fastest SoB hunt I ever witnessed had a couple of ls pallys on board.

Many people have expressed dissatisfaction with GS damage. Twohanded and cannot hit off hex, one would think the top GSes would be the hardest hitting weapons in the game.

I have not personally tested the top Nork and Cob GSes. It would be interesting to start another thread and post some tests.
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Post by Fenris »

Didn't read the whole thread, but your f/m may be "bugged"... I had a character that no matter what I did I gained .03 as a max skill/swing. Didn't matter where I was or what I swung at... and this was at very low level skill.

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Post by Ztinktoof »

You may want to reread the thread in a little more detail. I have no clue what you tested but it does not sound like what we were discussing.

I reperformed the first test just in case something was "corrected" with the reset today.

19/15 FM 11% Paid Ahead
48/30 Pally 6.4% Paid Ahead (due to skill loss over the last couple of years)

Kill 10 Alerian Wolves solo: 41.50% to 41.55 % = 0.05% skill gain for FM
Kill 10 Alerian Wolves party: 41.55% to 41.56% = 0.01% skill gain for FM

Party skill gain remains nerfed. See Virag's post for confirmation on how this used to work.
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Post by shadeth »

Ztink,

Maybe think "time based" instead? In other words, by having your pally partied how much skill gain did your little guy get in a comparable 5 minutes or 30 or 60.

I re-test this weekend, in hour increments, and found the skill for my little guy exactly as it has been in the last couple months. And it is more when partied with my much larger Thief, than when solo. This is in Cobrahn.

Party On
Last edited by shadeth on Mon Apr 19, 2004 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Ztinktoof »

It wont matter if I kill 10 wolves in 10 minutes or 10 hours. It is still 10 wolves. It is still 80% less than what we were getting just a short while ago.

No one has nailed down exactly what is causing the bug to occur. I do know I have partied with my pally with a wide range of player skills for about two years and never saw such horrible skill gain for party members until recently.

I now am forced to hunt solo exclusively except for lair hunts or non-skilling outtings. Just another thing, along with Cob lair regen, which puts a nasty hit on guilds and social playing.

One thing to check: maybe something recently broke in the skill system if one member of the party is skill 30. But I do not have a skill 29 character to test with.
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Post by Yeti »

ran a few time based tests and definately gained more in party than without one, skill 14 partied with skill 28 in aleria


gained over double per hour compared to what i was gaining solo.

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