MA vs. Barb

[Birdman]

I've heard from a fury barb friend that an RP MA is better than his fury barb. I don't know if I beleive this because.....well......he's stupid. I have a 17/13 MA and a 13/9 barb. My MA wears vamp gaunts right now and from what I know they are the best in nork that an MA can get. My barb is using a +6 hally a friend got for me. My MA averages around 160 - 170 damage. My barb on the other hand averages 185 - 195 at full zerk. When barb isn't zerking he hits considerably less than my MA but I don't think that should come into play considering not many barbs out there hunt unzerked. My MA is 4 exp levels larger yet he has 4 attacks and my barb has 5. My MA has max agil and str, while my barb has 15 agil and 16 str. To me this is rediculous! I realize that barbs are exp level based and all but a barb 4 levels lower than an MA w/ more attacks is ridiculous!

Feel free to weigh in on your own class whatever it may be. Pally, thief, ment, healer, and hopefully get a F/M's opinion beings you don't hear much from them.

I'm not trying to get people to upset or cause fights, and I do realize one or two may break out Just trying to see what drak community opinion is. thats all......

P.S. I could have added more to the MA vs. barb theme but I would like to see people respond to this and I don't want to ramble on for to long lol

[King]

Well since i figure your talking bout me as the stupid barb, id like to say RP ma's are normally only better in nork, aleria, and nameless. Sure barbs do ALOT better in cob then almost any other class once lvl 25 and then especially at lvl 30 if they are hally (GS GK2 is to rare to even consider for a lvl 30). On the attack's part a barb uses his attacks to just get a better chance to do decent dmg while other classes like MA and Pally use attacks to determine how many hits they do with RP and MS. Your MA will improve if u play him and i will beat you for the stupid remark <G> Any way yeah, MA's suck for until larger so its pretty much you stick to it and get bigger or your going to have a hard time.

[lalasushi]

king, if ma's r so good whyd u rr ur MA? lol

[Merlin]

because he is lazy and didnt wanna get him to RP



*points at lazy king*


j/k

*Merlz*

[Ravaillac]

The way fighters should be different from each other (in my opinion):

The attributes I think are relevant are:

Zoo Combat Defense
Damage Dealt to Zoo (Aggregate Damage Total)
Damage Dealt to Single Opponent
Psi Damage Defense
Mind Control (Stun/Charm) Defense.

Ideal scores Ranked Best to Worst:

Zoo Combat Defense: MA, Paladin, Barb
Damage Dealt to Zoo: MA, Paladin, Barb
Damage Dealt to Single Opponent: Barb, Paladin, MA
Psi Damage Defense: Barb, (Paladin & MA should be equal here)
Mind Control Defense: Paladin, Barb, MA

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Current scores Ranked Best to Worst at level 50+ (in my opinion):

Zoo Combat Defense: MAs have best defense vs other MAs and versus archers, followed closely by Paladins parrying. Barbarians have the best defense versus the other weapons, particularly if the barbarian is using a halberd, and the best overall defense while still doing their maximum damage.

Damage Dealt to zoo: Barbarians clearly do the most damage, followed by Paladins, and lastly by MAs.

Damage Dealt to Single Opponents: Barbarians, Paladins, then MAs. Exceptions: Paladins outdamage Barbarians using haste; MAs outdamage everyone using haste, *IF* they can hit reliably, which is rare. Huge issue: MAs have NO ABILITY to do damage in many lairs.

Psi Damage Defense: Barbs are best, followed by Paladins & MAs who are about equal.

Mind Control Defense: Barbarians are best (immune to stun and scare at froth), followed by Paladins (can survive stuns reliably using armor), and MAs.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Suggested Changes:

1) Remove barbarian immunity to mind control. Barbarian psi resistance should be to taking damage, not to stun and other hassles.

2) Improve Paladin resistances to mind control.

3) Continue to dramatically change the role of healing in the game.

4) Remove vampiric healing. Replace with high hp regen dependant on Exp level. INCREASE barbarian hit point cap dramatically. Ban the use of IH for barbarians. Permit healers to heal them at reduced effectiveness levels.

5) MAs need offense improvement on to-hit scores. Even if this means they git hit more often.

6) Increase damage dealt to single opponents by MAs in dungeons. Even if this means they get hit more often.

7) Increase damage spread across multiple opponents by both MAs and Paladins in dungeons. Allow MAs to both punch and kick (different opponents) in same round. Allow paladins to wield 1 large and 1 smaller weapon (dual wield) against a single opponent.

Increase damage done by barbarians against single opponents in dungeons.

9) Improve Berserk AI to make it more efficient. Add additional swings against a single target. Remove the round lost when switching targets.

[Acaciam]

Sounds great, I think those changes would provide for better gameplay and class balance.

[Crusher]

Originally posted by Ravaillac
1) Remove barbarian immunity to mind control. Barbarian psi resistance should be to taking damage, not to stun and other hassles.

Barbs are against anything that deals with PSI... This includes anything attacking the mind...

Originally posted by Ravaillac
2) Improve Paladin resistances to mind control.

Paladins could use a bit of a boost but why? If a barb gets stunned/disarmed while frothed... They are almost defenseless, but Paladins have their armor to back them up...

Originally posted by Ravaillac
3) Continue to dramatically change the role of healing in the game.

This means what? a barb can't live without a healer? but paladins get Healing touch and never need an ih? sounds good to me... barbs take 1 round to autobalm if my mind serves me correctly... so does a pally... but he can do it when he wants to, not at 1/3 hits...

Originally posted by Ravaillac
4) Remove vampiric healing. Replace with high hp regen dependant on Exp level. INCREASE barbarian hit point cap dramatically. Ban the use of IH for barbarians. Permit healers to heal them at reduced effectiveness levels.

how would this help anyone? it would make barbs useles... Let me point out, ban the use of IH for barbarians... sounds like a game depending too much on nature, i mean come on... so your saying a healer should have to heal a barb 20 times to give him 2000 hits? thats like giving you a stick and a shield and telling you to go kill a elephant...

Originally posted by Ravaillac
5) MAs need offense improvement on to-hit scores. Even if this means they git hit more often.

brad said he's replacing death touch with something else

Originally posted by Ravaillac
6) Increase damage dealt to single opponents by MAs in dungeons. Even if this means they get hit more often.

isnt' this what the last question said?

Originally posted by Ravaillac
7) Increase damage spread across multiple opponents by both MAs and Paladins in dungeons. Allow MAs to both punch and kick (different opponents) in same round. Allow paladins to wield 1 large and 1 smaller weapon (dual wield) against a single opponent.

or why not just make everyone merchants! this is getting silly... Paladins were known for their extreme capability to wipe out zoo's and not get hit in keep...

Originally posted by Ravaillac
Increase damage done by barbarians against single opponents in dungeons.

first you said nerf their healing abilities... now its hit harder... and in the above statements... the barb beat the paladin and ma, and by far i might say (unhasted)

Originally posted by Ravaillac
9) Improve Berserk AI to make it more efficient. Add additional swings against a single target. Remove the round lost when switching targets.

finally! he's talking with some sense

Of course if your whole statement was a joke, it was pretty funny

[Cheese]

Originally posted by Crusher

Originally posted by Ravaillac
1) Remove barbarian immunity to mind control. Barbarian psi resistance should be to taking damage, not to stun and other hassles.

Barbs are against anything that deals with PSI... This includes anything attacking the mind...

Ok, then have barbs not only resist negative discs, but beneficials as well, and not just their, Yuck, vile psionics garbage.

I mean as in, healer is buffing up a barb, said barb resists some of the buffs forcing healer to recast.

In a game I used to play it was set up so that barbs were uber against "magic", innate dmg ab from magic based sources, chance to 'resist' direct spell affects(charm, stun, blind and what not) they had this at the cost of beneficial spells also being resisted on a more than frequent occasion, was kinda sexy since ya couldnt resist the bad without being resistant to some of the good as well, created a bit more balance with them.

Cheese

[Ravaillac]

1) and 2) -- Paladins have willpower boosts. These are there logically to boost resist against stun and charm. You say Barbs are resistant to all psi. I think it makes more sense for them to be less resistant to mind control and more resistant to psionic DAMAGE.

3) If you don't understand it, don't guess. Brad knows what I'm talking about. Healingtouch is useless for the purpose of healing. It only heals you to 1080 or 80%. IF you have 2000 hits, which i'm approaching, it's a 50% heal.

4) Changing healing does't make a barb useless, it just changes a style of play which allows one-shot deaths to all classes except barbs to a style of play that requires all classes to manage HPs in the same manner that psi users currently manage EPs.

5) MAs need offensive boosts, irrespective to a replacement to Deathtouch. It's my opinion that all chi and focus abilities will become irrelevant to advanced gameplay, and it's the BASELINE attacks that should be addressed before special attacks.

6) See response to #5. #5 and #6 are different. One addresses probability of a hit, the other addresses damage upon a successful hit.

7) How is coding dual attacks making everyone merchants? I don't see how your mention of the effectiveness of one particular class, at high level, in a particular area is relevant to the issue of class balance.

Paladins and MAs should spread their damage across an entire zoo, or maybe cause spillover damage to additional creatures through added attacks, ripostes, etc. Barbarians should focus on one opponent at a time.

9) The barbarian should play different than the other fighter classes. The MA should be hit least, relying on skill to dodge attacks. The Paladin should be hit more, relying on armor to reduce damage intake and compensate for lower hp caps in comparison to the barb. The MA and Paladin should be able to hold off more opponents at once than the Barbarian, who should use his extraordinary HP cap as a resource to expend while eliminating opponents from the fight in time for his natural hit point regen to take up the slack. The MA and Barb should make effective use of buffs and minor heals, while the barbarian should lack these amenities. Makes perfect sense to me.

I'm not calling on nerfing any one particular class. I think they should all have their strengths and weaknesses across the 5 criteria I mentioned.

[Ravaillac]

Cheese said:

In a game I used to play it was set up so that barbs were uber against "magic", innate dmg ab from magic based sources, chance to 'resist' direct spell affects(charm, stun, blind and what not) they had this at the cost of beneficial spells also being resisted on a more than frequent occasion, was kinda sexy since ya couldnt resist the bad without being resistant to some of the good as well, created a bit more balance with them.

I wouldn't object to blanket immunity to all psionic effects for Barbarians, but that might actually detract more from the usefulness of OTHER classes (ments, healers, and increasingly F-Ms) more than it would be perceived as a weakness of the barbarian class.

[Cheese]

True, but really, a ment's ability to iv, or a healers ability to erm, what healer discs useful to high lvl barbs again? , or lack of ability to use those discs on a barb wouldnt detract from their respective classes so much as making barbs require bit more than stacking zerks or arg commands.

Would force barbs to "get by" without those discs, in some ways would be a serious annoyance(no succor) but hey, thats something a ment is still always useful, bus rides.

[Crusher]

lets nerf thieves too! they can hit hard with one hit!
oh oh! how about ments and healers! healers heal for too much! ments abuse haste!

is it just me or every battle of better classes is about barbs?

1-2)maybe i didn't say it clear enough... Barbs are against PSIONICS they don't cope with PSIONICS they have evolved away from PSIONICS meaning they built up an immunity to PSIONICS... the barb's mind is hard to tame, so why should MIND CONTROL have more effect on them now than before?

3)umm... ih's only heal for 1000, do they not?

4)why not make all classes like that? make ih's a rare item! (oh wow! i found an ih! i'm rich!) and plus.. i thought u were trying to make character diversity... not similarity? why does your last post show that you are trying to connect healers/ments with barbs? if brad goes crazy and for some reason implements that... there should atleast be hp regen items...

5-6)a MA is like a pally... can't hit hard till they are higher levels... then even you said that they are meant to be zoo clearers... Ma's should have same chance to hit as almost any other class... and should hit for even more damage against other ma characters...

7) sheesh, must not know about internet humor... my merchant comment was a non-sense comment because all of this conversation is to change the characters...

you're still not making any sense... make the barb hit harder in dungeons BUT... make them not be able to heal with ih's and must be 100% natural... we could always make the barbs stick to wearing cloths for clothes...

9)barb is strength... pallly is strength and defense and zoo cleaner... ma is defense and zoo cleaner...
barb has a side job of being able to live against large groups of monsters, for 3 reasons... they have tons of hits, they can autobalm at 1000 damage, they are able to vamp health... notice how each of these is surrounded on one structure... health. tons of hits means nothing if they have to have a healer around to heal them or they'd need to retreat everytime they get low on health... limiting barbs to areas where only their health can keep them alive... if it was 200 health per round... then thats fine... if it was 50 health per round... thats stupid... but vampirism also depends on 2 things... if you can hit the target and if you can see the target... can't hit what you can't see... can vamp from what you can't hit...

[lalasushi]

crusher, brad said hes replacing DT over a year ago, it didnt happen while no NL, it definately wont happen now. and dont say ma's are defence, i dont even get skill blocks in ud5 when im sitting there doing nothing, its all armor/shield.

[Pax]

Originally posted by lalasushi


crusher, brad said hes replacing DT over a year ago, it didnt happen while no NL, it definately wont happen now. and dont say ma's are defence, i dont even get skill blocks in ud5 when im sitting there doing nothing, its all armor/shield.

I think the new abilities that are coming out will slowly make all old discs/abilities seem trivial (you never know with Brad ).

[Ravaillac]

200 health per round... then thats fine... if it was 50 health per round... thats stupid... but vampirism also depends on 2 things... if you can hit the target and if you can see the target... can't hit what you can't see... can vamp from what you can't hit...

That's exactly the point Crusher. Barbs should play DIFFERENT than the other classes. It's not simply that Barbs are offense, MA's are defense, and paladins are in between. It's much more complex and situational than that.

Barbarians should resist psionic damage only. Resistances to Stun, Charm, and Blind should be paladin perks - that's why paladins already have the willpower bonus. You are entitled to your opinion if u simply disagree <shrug>.

Vampiric healing is silly because of the reasons you mentioned, you have to be able to see your opponent, etc. It should be replaced with straight HP-regen, increasing with EXP level. I'd also suggest allowing Barbarians to use the REST command to get increased healing, but not while in combat (just to remove downtime between combat)

I would like to see the Barbarian shifted in focus (not nerfed) so that it plays DIFFERENT than the other fighters. I think barbarians should have jacked up hit point maxes so they dont need healing (but still can get buffs) and jacked up hp regens to replace vamping.

Barbs aren't supposed to get armor blocks like paladins. Barbs aren't supposed to get skill blocks like MAs. The Barbarians job should be to have a massive pool of hits to drain while he destroys opponents one-by-one, reducing the damage he takes from surviving enemies each round until he takes less damage than he regens each round. If the barbarian can't do enough damage, then yes, he's in over his head in that area and doesn't belong there, same as an MA or Paladin would be over their head if they weren't big enough to hunt an area. It's just that Barbarian "bigness" should be measured on HP Max, HP Regen, and Damage-Dealing-Spped against a single enemy, while MA "bigness" should be based on pure skill and Paladin "bigness" should be based on a combination of skill along with higher dependence on gear than the other fighters (because other fighters cant wear armor).

Whether you realize it or not, healing is becoming more and more limited to non-healers. They dont even SELL Ih in the new scenario so far, the ih you carry from nork has a 1k limit, healingtouch caps at 1080, etc. This is a good thing, because it will shift the game away from a system of one-shot-kills and towards a system of managing HP as a resource constraint like EPs are managed by psi users. Players will have to exercise better judgment as to when to pull a tactical retreat, and the game will require a bit more strategy (I hope).

[lalasushi]

pax, im sure in time u will be correct, but right now of the discs discovered for ma's, i dont see any that make rp/pool/shield/psweep <the major chi's mas use> obsolete or funny to use.

[Doro]

Now hang on Rav . . .

Barbs should be like this?
Other classes should be like that?

I know you have been around a while and feel able to make constructive comments, but barbs are as they are because the system dudes (Brad et al) made them like that.

It was a deliberate intention that they vamp, it was intended that they get armour blocks.

As such, I made a concious decision to dedicate one of my slots to barb class.

If you are suggesting that barbs (and other classes) get changed, by all means suggest away, but allow others to disagree!

My opinion (for what it's worth) after having played for only a few years: -

Barbs WERE great, now they are BEYOND great;
With the availability of certain Uber weapons they are almost indestructible <sp?>.

I believe these weapons should be removed from the game
(how's that for controversial <sp?>)
These 'Uber Cheater' weapons are beyond a barb's requirement.
I have compared my skill 27 in Mace with my skill 1 in Hally and see no difference in their killing power when weilding said item (isn't that unbalancing?).

Leave the vamping alone, is works fine (as does the Pally HT) it isn't all powerful, but it helps as was intended. I cannot speak for levels above my own (32) but I imagine it improves with exp?

That's my two-penny-worth, I am open to discussion, but it is only my opinion.
I will not dictate and impose my will on others, so feel free to flame, but politely please.

I doubt I will reply to any offensive reposts, this doesn't mean that because others get to post after me that my opinion is any less valid.

Doro___ASH

[Ravaillac]

Yes Doro... those are my opinions as to how the classes should be different, nothing more, and others can agree or disagree, i am just sharing my opinions about what I think would be fun and balanced.

I don't think any particular piece of gear unbalances a class. The GiantKing gear, while it is extremely powerful, is only unbalancing if the other classes dont get equally fun stuff and if the things we fight against dont steadily improve in difficulty.

I think Barbs are generally a lot less powerful than people think, except in Cobrahn where they can equip Giantking gear. Even there, barbarians' relative power could change easily if the creatures they fight change or if new gear is added. For example, if the use of BLIND was more common, barbs would suffer dramatically compared to Paladins. If a new fullplate (or even a shield) came out, GiantKing wielders wouldn't be able to take advantage of it. New items such as Lazloth or Lanapi gear might change the balance in Cobrahn as well.

I disagree with you on whether healingtouch is useful (it starts out very useful and gets progressively less so as you grow) but that's ok too.

There should be different use of tactics and equipment between the different fighter types, different strengths and weaknesses, different restrictions about who can use which gear, and more choices in customizing characters through active decisionmaking.

[Crusher]

what about people who don't want to rest? barb's not getting the ability to heal is more of a bad idea... that makes pallies the only real baits on lairs... in nameless the barbs lose zerk when being attacked by the lair crit... but i think it should be a instant lose zerk, more of a make it start blinking... and can't effect someone that is already blinking...

charm/stun/blind is psi... charm takes over the mind and the barb's mind is the most difficult to control... stun disables the mind and the barb's mind is almost constantly in action, even tho it doesn't do much thinking... blind should be the same for everyone, because my eyes are just as vulnerable as yours... one thing that should change the difference is the helm they are wearing and progressive levels...

I disagree with you on whether healingtouch is useful (it starts out very useful and gets progressively less so as you grow) but that's ok too.

same with zerking... at level 25 when you first get fury, you have alot of fury rounds... and according to rumor/fact, as you get higher level you get less furies...

barbarians are offenseless if they are blind... ma's can chisweep, pallies can ms/blindstrike, healers can EC/vision, ments can fire/ice/ec, thieves are also offenseless but they can hide or liminv if it helps...

fighters and barbs should be similar... pallies and barbs shouldn't be... fighters should get their own special abilities, that can transfer over to F/M

I think there sohuld be diversity among gear... like only certain classes can use certain weapons/armor...
pallies can only use plate items,
fighters can use any armor,
thieves can only use light weight items,
barbs can't use plates/scales,
healers/ments are encumbered when using full body plates
need certain strength to use different weapons... 18+ str for halberd, 17+ for GS, 16+ for LS, and other things...

[Pax]

Originally posted by Crusher

thieves can only use light weight items

I always thought it funny that Thieves wore fullplate (clunk clunk). In terms of balancing I believe they need good armor (perhaps it would be better if they had armor equivalent to fullplate but was actually leather rather than what I picture fullplate to be).

[Crusher]

i always saw nin as a light weight item... i mean its a skin of a lizard!

[Rosey]

I think ments are best <g>

[Pepma]

Originally posted by Rosey


I think ments are best <g>

Compared to merchants yes,

Pep

[Burton]

I like the sysop class, I just cant kill anything!!!!!

[Drdrunk]

if sysop is class... evil must be race