Sysop Characters, Their Twinks, and Bug Rewards

[Relic]

To attribute everything you do not desire to hear as whining and complaining, to label his action if he were accepts the side opposite of you as caveing in, to define what you believe is the "RIGHT THING" without any evidence on what makes your believe right. Seems that the only reason its right to you is because 1) its going to take a lot of work, and 2) because its a complaint by whiners...regardless of what it is they complaint about, it doesnt matter, they are complaining and are whiners so the right thing is to not cave in to them.

and then to dare him and say: hope you can have the intestinal fortitude do do the RIGHT THING...

and then theres the assumption of scrying...the issue that spawn this had nothing to do with scry, the arrogance in such an assumption is laughable. The part about "what was seen would not be possible" is exactly that, over 15 people in the same corridor of the same dungeon.

[Ender]

Hi Relic

I dont know who you are..... but you simply just either said NOTHING or very close to it....

I was very careful in my post to very simply say BRAD.. think long and hard and do not let a SCREAM (which is very common in the last 12 years of drakkar when new segments come up) affect your thinking....

I said that he should make a decision he is PROUND OF.....

Are you saying that for me to ask him to be PROUD OF HIS DECISION is a strange request somehow?..

I am only trying to REMIND him of DRAKKAR PAST..... if you dont know drakkar past.. then I understand that YOU do not understand

Ender

[Relic]

Hi Ender, I also dont know who YOU are. I am simply saying that to create such an empty post as you have done, is simply poor attempt in manipulation.
Its fine to ask Brad to make a decision hes "PROUD" of.
But you were also "TELLING" him NOT TO WIMP OUT.

and to ask him to make a decision that he can be proud of would go like this:

Brad, please make a decision that you are to be proud of.

are you saying the rest of ur text is empty air?

As for reminding him drakkars past, I understand that you are still in it while I have seen it and am living in the present. Judge every issue base on its merrits instead of immediately attribute it to complaints and animosity, you too can come to the present.

[Ender]

SORRY RELIC...

this may sound like EGO from me

but if you dont know who I AM then you just proved my point. you do not know the game's HISTORY.....

It is not ego.... and i was not trying to manipulate.. quite frankly i was making a PLEA to brad to THINK...

its as simple as that.... if you think that my asking him to THINK IT THROUGH before he makes a decision is somehow a strange request.. then sorry... it is the same advice i tive to any of my children, friends, family.. ect.. before making a serious decision... then after THINKING IT THROUGH make a decision you can be PROUD OF.....

Simple advice.. sorry if it was complicated

Ender

[Watcher]

From an ancient Barbarian...

Originally posted by Brad


I've reopened this thread on a more positive note. I'm afraid I got a bit unprofessional
in the last thread, so i've nuked it and decided to start fresh.

There are some questions that have been opened.

1) Do sysops have an advantage which gives their real characters an unfair edge?

........Gives them intimate knowledge of quests, how monsters work, locations and the ability to teleport anywhere to explore. So, yes...it gives them an advantage. Do any of them abuse this? Not that I've known......

2) Are old characters that have received special abilities, improvements, or one time items (or items that no longer generate), more of a hinderance to the game than they
are worth.. And if so, what do we do about them. Is it fair to give them something one day, then take it away another because others can't directly "attain" this ability.

.........Let them keep the items. Abilities... I would say sorry..but that is not in line with the parameters of the game and you now have to deal with abilities inhererent to your class or skills...........


3) For "non" beta test areas, (where bugs are expected to be reported normally), should characters who assist in locating bugs be rewarded, and if so, how.

..........Depending on the "value" of the bug, I would give them some free game time, like a month for a minor bug and maybe six months for a humongous-blow the game out of the water with exploitation beyond the minds of mortal men- bug. That way, the reward is real life and will not disrupt the "balance" of the game.........


As always, my opinion.

Hoss

p.s. If you need a game tester, I'm available, since I don't play the production game anymore.

[Tranquil]

I would agree with hoss. i would much rather 6 months to a year of free time (something like gold plan and 1-2 slots upper gh) than MT, and whatever else is given that we will never know of.

[Arkon]

Originally posted by Ender


Yes... but immediatly after I asked that he did not make it EASIER.. he did.. i guess he caved to COMPLAINTS..... which is what I am worried about on this thread....

I am truly worried that brad will WIMP OUT now and listen to a couple of complaints by old time players that is backed up by a PACK of SCREAMING NEWBIES that really know nothing about the game or the history of the game....

My advice is BRAD.... DO NOT CAVE IN.... be TRUE TO WHAT IS RIGHT....whatever that is.. but whatever you decide to do about this.. i hope YOU ARE PROUD of YOURSELF with your response... think about that long and hard.... if you take an action that makes you sick at your stomach.. MAYBE IT IS THE WRONG ACTION....

Problems similar to this have cropped up in the past MANY TIMES... for different reasons.... USUALLY when a new area arrives and some group starts to understand it and starts to do well.... <I> at least have 12 years history of seeing this... I USED to post in forum all the time.. but got tired of the BICKERING.. so I rarely post....

MY FONDEST DESIRE is that you do what you think is RIGHT and TRUE on this subject and that you do not WIMP OUT and FOLD to the CRYING of those that dont have what SOMEONE ELSE HAS.... my goodness.. are we gonna take back all the COWYBOY HATS.. are we gonna REMOVE SPECS are we going to SHAVE HITPOINTS.. where will this end??

REMOVE SCRY FROM THE GAME.. it is a destructive disc to moral of the game... already posted by a COUPLE of posts is 'WHAT I SAW WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE' and the way they SAW it was SCRY.... to SEE is not to UNDERSTAND....

Anyway.... I hope you can have the intestinal fortitude do do the RIGHT THING and to not give in to the SQUEAKY WHEEL.... too many times in these days..... the NICE FOLKS FINISH LAST and the WHINERS ARE THE ONES THAT WIN only for the reason to SHUT THEM UP.... how silly and how wrong!!!!

DO THE RIGHT THING!!!!

Ender

Please show the purpose of your post other than personal attacks on people who don't share your point of view... interesting... both you and Ravaillac feel the need to characterize others as whiners, jealous, screaming newbies etc...

Indeed your post merely shows that you feel if Brad decides the issue any other way in your favor, that he'll be lacking in intestinal fortitude.

Any decision Brad makes will be a gutsy decision. Either way he decides there will be people who are not happy.

Key thing is.... allow the game to continue to be played by characters that are tweaked with benefits not earned in game play. Or to have a game free of tweaked characters where everybody's characters are strictly determined by their abilities as players.

Adjustments have been made in the past when classes were thought to be too powerful, hence the fate of the ninja class, barb zerk abilities, AH on barbs, chain stunning/pushing lair crits. Add in any number of game play changes which didn't make the players happy.

It really isn't any different when a character has perks/tweaks that it shouldn't have. If the character has abilities/stats/levels not earned in normal game play it should be brought in line with what can reasonable be expected to have earned in normal gameplay as well.

So far what I've seen is attempts by people to say "gee for old times sake, let us keep the abilities" or "We spent XXXXX dollars in classic, we should be able to keep these abilities" or threats to leave the game if there characters are brought in line with the norm.

Some have said "why worry about it, nothing is going to be done" that attitude has always bothered me... If I see something I feel is wrong I'll speak up, it isn't whining to ask for a level game.

[Ravaillac]

Hey Arkon,

Quit trying to turn this into a flame war by personalizing things.

I never mentioned any names in my posts. Just my thoughts and opinions as to why this came up, and what I think should be done (or not done). So please knock it off, mmm'kay?

"both you and Ravaillac feel the need to characterize others as whiners, jealous, screaming newbies etc"

[Arkon]

Originally posted by Ravaillac


Hey Arkon,

Quit trying to turn this into a flame war by personalizing things.

I never mentioned any names in my posts. Just my thoughts and opinions as to why this came up, and what I think should be done (or not done). So please knock it off, mmm'kay?

"both you and Ravaillac feel the need to characterize others as whiners, jealous, screaming newbies etc"

I'm not.. .those are quotes from your posts. Not mine.... that you didn't mention names allows it to be read many different ways. If you weren't trying to be inflammatory I'd suggest you review the content of your posts better.

Try again.

edit... I will admit I lumped them together though
end edit

[Navarre]

I've seen this topic bounce back and forth in between a very dangerous and line-drawing personal battle, so I'm going to try to restore order by posting ON TOPIC.

Brad's post said something along the lines of this.

There are some questions that have been opened.

1) Do sysops have an advantage which gives their real characters an unfair edge?

2) Are old characters that have received special abilities, improvements, or one time items (or items that no longer generate), more of a hinderance to the game than they
are worth.. And if so, what do we do about them. Is it fair to give them something one day, then take it away another because others can't directly "attain" this ability.

3) For "non" beta test areas, (where bugs are expected to be reported normally), should characters who assist in locating bugs be rewarded, and if so, how.

(Don't count me out for style points because I don't post enough to know how you're supposed to use this quote device thing.)

Question 1: Do sysops have an advantage which gives their real characters an unfair edge?

Not unless the boons you get on sysop crits is carried over, or is somehow intertwined to, the character that they play for fun. (I use the term "fun" loosely, it seems that most lately have become so caught up in being the first people to kill something/get certain loot/get into certain area, etc they've forgotten what fun is.. this thread doesn't exactly help, but that editorial remark is probably best meant for another post in another place. Pardon the digression.) If in any way the character that the Sysop plays that is the non-sysop crit is gaining things BECAUSE of being a sysop.. that seems unbalancing to me. There are other ways to show appreciation to sysops, giving their characters unbalancing attributes is not a respected or wise one.

Another situation, which will be further discussed during my own answer to question number 2, deals with developers and their characters, and the groups they are associated with. In my opinion, if a player/sysop works on a scenario or parts of a scenario, and then takes a group of players to this certain part of the scenario and influences the happenings of the scenario, while being there with his in-game character as well, I think that's overstepping a boundary and possibly giving unfair advantages to those involved. Don't attach double meanings to this, I don't have 100% proof that it does, only heresy and rumors. You have been warned.

Question 2: Are old characters that have received special abilities, improvements, or one time items (or items that no longer generate), more of a hinderance to the game than they are worth.. And if so, what do we do about them. Is it fair to give them something one day, then take it away another because others can't directly "attain" this ability.

Absolutely not. Though there are two sides to ewery coin, one side always looks better than the other. I can see two arguments to this.. though I'm going with one because of personal experience, though I'm not sure about everyone else's experiences. As you know, in the biggest coup d'etat in the history of Drakkar, somehow I managed to finneagle the Queen Servant's plate. As some of the more informed members and participants in the game know, it's a minimum XP of 30 to wear. I'd just like to say that I have NEVER in my life grunted so hard to make a goal in my life. Though I'm still not there and have quite a ways to go in fact, it's still something that's driving and pushing me to making that goal. So to have that plate taken away would be like taking away one of the reasons that I play this game.

On the other hand, abilities and items are two entirely different stories. Items can be lost at any minute. Abilities are there forever. If there is a character in the game with an ability I, or other people for that matter, don't have and cannot obtain by common methods, chances are I'm going to be incredibly jealous and probably a little mad. It wouldn't bother me until it started changing the balance of the game or outcomes of lairs and other prevalent events. For instance, say there were a character that had a ton of super abilities.. disciplines not meant for his class, had skill and/or experience over what any normal character could get, then I'd say that's DEFINITELY unbalancing. Anyone who says it isn't is either blind or stupid. There's plenty of issues raised by the question, for example, the character's use on lairs, how it affects the conquering of lairs in both Cobrahn and especially in Nameless, so on and so forth. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not discounting hard work and determination to make your character the best that it can be. I play Drakkar because it's taken me 7 years to get to where I am, and I'm nowhere, and there's still a TON for me to say that I've done, and I'm chipping away at it.. slowly but surely. Once again, I'm NOT discounting hard work or pointing fingers, nor am I trying to name names and certain situations. Similarities between my simulated situation and those going on in Drakkar are purely coincidental. You have once again been warned.

Question 3: 3) For "non" beta test areas, (where bugs are expected to be reported normally), should characters who assist in locating bugs be rewarded, and if so, how.

That's up to the person that's running the game and wants to find these bugs, I think if there is a reward system in place it should be based solely on how big the bug is that is found, whether or not the person continued to exploit the bug once found, and other factors. If it ends up being a big boon for a big bug that isn't exploited by the character, instead immediately reported, that's merit enough to me.

Now that I've posted that, out of the sake of the social framework of the game, I'd love to see this thread (which for the record I've followed since the beginning because it's a very intriguing topic to read.. that says a lot because I hate the forums and am a devout antisocialist <g>) go back to a calm discussion about the things going on in the game rather than a finger-pointing bonanza. Thank you for your time.

[Pepma]

Well, As this thread goes on day by day and people fighting and argue over who has what or who did what or whose unbalancing the game or whatever.. Maybe its time for these "tweaked" characters to come forward and tell EVERYONE exactly what they have? If they believe there character is NOT unbalancing the game then they should be able to come forward and say exactly how they are twinked in what way. Example: Tweaked player A ) well i am a healer with Specs, Massteleport, and skill 35 in MA ability. Tweaked character B ) I have hitpoints above and beyond what would normally be allowed for my class..
For the most part the players themselves, can determine what unbalances the game and what doesn't. As people argue, There is probably very few people who know exactly what these "tweaked" characters have as far as abilities go I for one am included in this. Does anyone really know if these "tweaked" characters are unbalanced? Well, they would have to know all the "extra" abilities that said characters have.. So maybe its time for the "tweaks" to reveal what they have been "tweaked" with. So that way EVERYONE knows exactly what the "tweaks" possess as far as abilities go. Again, i'm sure the "tweaked" characters will probably not post what they have because they want to hide it or whatever they want to do with it.. But it would be nice for people to know what the "tweaked" characters have. It would help alot with all the fighting that is going on in this thread..


Corey

[Tranquil]

on a side note, are names not supposed to be said on this thread at all? i havent read one specific name yet.. just blatantly obvious hints as to who the person is talking about. id like to know this before i post something and get myself into some trouble? or not?

[Demonaic]

here's my opinion an' stuff -

oldschool discs on other classes should stay *someone said ff on a ma?*

oldschool gear on that's not extremely unbalancing should stay *skill doubling ring?*

bug abuse should revert the character regardless of time/offense *they didn't earn it* EVEN IF they reported it later, it's still underhanded. to me it's like sayin, o hey i stole that stereo, but before you cought me i told you about it, now you mind if i keep it?

sysops are usualy ethical enough to distinguish their perks from in game knowledge, and if they are a sysop, they should have the respect not to leak info to their guild or whatever else they bein accused of. *it's all heresay anyway if you're not a sysop*

heck i'd want all the people who disarmed lairs and took it w/o killin it to fork back the weapons, but that's long gone history, and the time it'd take and annoyance player ratio just kinda bad. ah well. the principle stands tho :p

bug reporting should have no in-game rewards *they didn't earn it*
possibly some pay time, like a certain amount of credit to the account, say 10-50. and it's not like you can spend your account credit elsewhere, it's buddy pay, not paypal
:hoho


Demonaic/LadyTrash
"Does the pope crap in the woods?"

[Freddie]

Things I think are WRONG but some might disagree.

Any disc, chi, foci, spec that does not belong to your class and can't be obtained by others of your class.

Third spec on F/M, unless there is a quest to get the third spec now. Changes to the game should effect everyone not just the new crits.

Any item that makes your character noticably better than everyone else that plays your class, and is unobtainable by others. Megalair items shouldn't be overpowering "I hope" so I won't mention them.

Hits, eps, stats elevated by bugs or gifts that is not obtainable by others.

Skill or experience above the cap.

Rygar

Oh boy

It is funny that you call thing cheats that are or were obtained throught normal gameplay. I tried to stay out of this post of jealous people and newbies that are all at the same mentality. Your comment of not obtainable by others is so funny. You're saying I can't start a lvl one character and get what so and so has then its not fair! You like some others I have seen post will not be happy unless you have the exact same stat/eps/gear etc of the same people that have played this game for a very long time. This is not an unbalance concern its a he has something better then me thats not fair!

Almost anyone who has played this game for a long period of time has overmax eps or hits before caps were put in. Look for example since you like f/m's so much the ep cap is really low too low imo. But I know that alot of ment first f/m's are above the cap. Your saying this is a cheat? Or that this should be fixed? You are not going to have many friends I'm afraid. While were on the subject of f/m's too its funny to me that you mention 3 specs. I only know of one maybe margret too I think dedicated over too before quitting f/m's with three specs. You make it sound like one more spec is gonna end the world. I find it very odd that that is in your list. It would be so unbalancing for a triple spec f/m to exist yeah right. Since its not any huge advantage this comment is obviously a pure case of he has something I don't gimme a break man.

Freddie__JIHAD(the triple spec F/M who got his three from normal game play)

[Freddie]

Posting why you disagree is fine. Putting down others for their ideas is not.

You mean like saying people with cheats when they are things obtained by normal game play?


In my post I wrote that others may disagree, go reread it.

Yeah I saw the disclaimer but you compelled me to reply:)

Nice that you threw in a personal attack/threat. I am sure you also had you and your friends add me to your "black list's", for posting my opinions.

Not a personal attack as you call it or threat. If you read what I said it states that ment frist f/m's might not like what you said. I was pally first f/m.

As for the F/M 3 spec they should add a one time quest for all F/M's to gain 1 spec for a max of 3. Can you still gain spec's through fating? If so maybe its obtainable still. Nothing against you or your spec's just stating my opinion.

Specs can be gained thru fate yes. The problem with allowing all to have 3 specs is that then that f/m's that were pally first will have way less eps then one who dedicated over as a ment first in most cases. So the solution I think would be why not let all f/m's gain three specs, but then also raise the ep cap up to like 750 or so so it evens out the differences in both leaving neither at an advantage. Regardless the current cap is way too low. Accuracy for example is 200 eps when the cap is around 550 for a lvl 50 f/m.

Freddie__JIHAD

[Relic]

Originally posted by Ender


SORRY RELIC...

this may sound like EGO from me

but if you dont know who I AM then you just proved my point. you do not know the game's HISTORY.....

It is not ego.... and i was not trying to manipulate.. quite frankly i was making a PLEA to brad to THINK...

its as simple as that.... if you think that my asking him to THINK IT THROUGH before he makes a decision is somehow a strange request.. then sorry... it is the same advice i tive to any of my children, friends, family.. ect.. before making a serious decision... then after THINKING IT THROUGH make a decision you can be PROUD OF.....

Simple advice.. sorry if it was complicated

Ender

Sorry Ender, that is EGO. I make it a rule to not know people that dont matter to me, that however does not make me a foreigner to history. Its sad that you people act as if you are celebrities in a game with very small player base, laughable if I didnt play this. Worse some of you actually believe that if YOOOUUUU have never heard of someone, then that someone is a noob<G>. How you handle your family, friends and children means nothing to me. I can also say that since you dont know me you dont know drakkars history either(since i've lived that part of drakkar also), but i aint full of myself.

Your advice as you state it is not advice at all, but in fact manipulation base on your own opinion of the right thing. How is it a right thing when you attribute it to complaints and DONT CAVE IN to them? What the complaints have no merits on the issue of fairness? What if the right thing is to CAVE IN this time?

Right thing to what in the first place? To the majority of the drakkar popluation? To his loyalty for his friend? To the attempt in keeping the game balance? To the people who always voice support for him instead of pointing to possible errors hes made?

Your advice as you call it is bias and turning a blind eye on the problem because all you see is an individual vs individual situation, with no indepth analysis to the issue between them. It may be that those individuals were in fact once the boys who cried wolf....but its the merchants who decided to ignore the boys in the end that lost sheeps. Keep discounting issues as whining and complaints, you act and I guess are teaching your friends, children, and family to be one of the merchants who lost sheeps in the end. I have no intention to be one of those merchants.

[Ender]

learn to read...

that was not my advice...

(in my opinion) you are now ranting and sounding like an idiot...

Thats my opinion.. i could be wrong

Ender

[Relic]

learn to write

--------------------
I am truly worried that brad will "WIMP OUT" now and listen to a couple of "complaints" by old time players that is backed up by a "PACK of SCREAMING NEWBIES" that really know nothing about the game or the history of the game....
--------------------

that came from you.

(In my opinion) you sound like an arrgoant fool....

Thats my opinion, i could be wrong also.

[Ambrose]

To answer Brad before commenting on the cream filling on this thread:

1) yes. Non-player knowledge is too big an advantage. If they can't stay away from the 'frontier' ... from untrod soil (of which they have knowledge), then they have abused their position.

2) Frankly, it is beyond me why "attainable by everyone" is the phrase used here. Personally, there is noone (and I hope I don't crush any ego's here) that I want to be exactly like. Any special ability already in place would have to be dealt with case by case ... and this is strictly your domain, Brad.

3) yes, reward turning in a bug. Logs will tell you if the cow was milked before it was returned to the pasture. Make up a list of things for the player to choose from.


as to the cream filling:
We discover when we grow up that we are unique and that jealousy and envy never served a useful purpose.

[Ender]

relic....

What does your last message have to do with my ADVICE.... you quote one of my messages but it has nothing to do with MY ADVICE....

If I advice someone to carry an umbrella when it is RAINING would you go pull a quote from another message i wrote and say that I am lying because "i dont think we should feed the bears at jellystone park' ?

two totally unrelated subjects...

But since you brought it up.. I truly do HOPE that brad does not WIMP OUT and give in to ANYONE's screaming and ranting... I hope he makes a decision (whatever it is) that he can be proud of..

Ender

[Jester]

Purely with respect to allowing players to retain the effects of a bug they turned in....

Let's look at it another way:
Say that the playing population comes to a consensus that players that find bugs and report them should be allowed to keep the effects of those bugs. Brad agrees and decides that the rule will be to allow the effects of bugs to persist on the player crits that turn in the bugs. Next, lets say that there is an NPC in the game that will send you on a quest if you say to them, "Hail, how are you?" A player takes his crit to that NPC and says "Boo" and finds that all of his stats, skills, exp, hp and ep have been reduced by 50%. Wowsa, that player thinks, and reports it to the sysops/Brad, who determin that it was a bug and not intended to be in the game for the NPC to cause that effect when a player says, "boo" to it. So Brad fixes that bug, and/or takes the NPC out of the game. "But wait" says the player, "what about my crit? Aren't you going to fix me?" to which the reply is: the effects of bugs will persist on any player that is effected by one.

There are two kinds of bugs in the game folks, the ones that are beneficial, and the ones that are detrimental. It is somewhat unethical and self serving to say that we only want the effects of beneficial bugs to persist, but that we want the effects of detrimental bugs corrected. The old saying, you can't have your cake and eat it too, applies to this question methinks. (and after playing this game for 9+ years -- started on MSN -- i wouldn't put it past brad to do something exactly like that. Be careful of what you wish to Soyerclause for, has always been my motto, as we usually regret it).

As to rewards for finding bugs: I can see it both ways, yes and no. Personally, i think no, but have to admit that some of the arguments made to the contrary have valid points. While I would prefer any rewards to be outside of the game, rewards in game should be limited to items, megalair lewt type items might be going a bit overboard in my opinion, rather than by permanent modifications of a player's crit. And it is understandable that anyone that has been the beneficiary of the tweaks of the past would understandably be unwilling to give them up, so I dont think they can be faulted for voicing an opinion to the contrary, either.

I don't think that those that are for the removal of the tweaks that have been made to payers' crits in the past, necessarily want their crit to be exactly like any other crit, but that they want an equal playing field, such that they will have an equal CHANCE at success for any given endeavor. I agree that this is not achievable, as different people have varying play styles, amounts of time to play, different groups of folks that they tend to play with, and skills tend to diverge rather early on in a crits life, weapon choice, etc, so there will always be those that get bigger, faster, and have more success at hunting various places than others do.

But, what I think that they are yearning for is that if for any two players, with everything else being equal, skills, lvl, hp, ep, gear, both will have the same chance at doing *whatever* and that the tilting factor between sucess and failure will be the individual players' inteligence or stupidity at approaching the problem, rather than whether or not one of the players go a bonus of 15 skill and 100 hp, because they found a bug, and the other player did not.

And please, can we keep a civil tone to this discussion, rather than digressing to a flame war?

Thanks,
Jester

[Relic]

ender....
I quoted your very first message of your "advice". Not one of your post. but your advice post. The first thing you did was attribute that the issue is just a "complaint" by a few old timers and they are supported by a PACK OF NEWBIES who in your arrogance, assumed to know nothing about the game and the history. Then you follow up with your advice being Brad, dont cave in..(this in itself implies that if he respond to the complaints in a favorable manner, its cave in)....follow by make the right decision.

In case you've missed it... I have on my previous response already said theres nothing wrong with asking/pleading/advising Brad to think hard and make the RIGHT decision...though that is redundant as is. That would be a simple 1 line post that goes something like this:

Brad, please think hard and well before you make a decision, and make it a decision thats true and right for (the game; your friends; your supporters, yourself, the good of the many, the good of the few) so you would have no regrets.

However, as i have asked, is your other text just air? Space fillers? They served to turned your "advice" into manipulations. Now you advice is no longer unbias...its now if he was to side with the opposite opinion, it is wimp out and caving in and other labels you've created in your post such as lack of intestinal endurance....if that was not your intention, I advice again: Learn to write.

It sounds more and more like you folks are complaining and whining about there are complainers and whiners in the world<G>

[Demonaic]

can't we all just get along? :p :hoho :D

[Dragonslayer]

from what i see it's a bunch of "whining yelling newbies" versus a few "whining yelling oldbies"
to do it democracie style, the newbies would get what they want.
but, mostly because (from what i know) the really tweaked players, and i mean REALLY, don't play much anymore. and all other things should be treated on a acse by case base, so a healer with MT, although MT is a big disc and all, it's not really gonna unbalance things, whereas a barb with 500 extra base HP, can make just the diffirence, especialy when exploring new area's.

*disclaimer no offense meant, all and every mistake i made wich is pointed out will be answered by a smart-ass remark :>*

[Arkon]

Before this goes any further, I'd like to straighten up what might be confusion regarding my particular motives for posting in this thread.

I have no malice towards any members of JIHAD or Ravaillac or Ender. Years ago I did, and I wished that the whole guild would fall into a deep dark hole somewhere and never come back. I got over that a long time ago.

I started the original thread because I perceived something wrong in the way a member of sysop/development was handling his/her in game character.

Brad became angry at the first thread and then stepped back and deleted his post along with the rest of the thread. He then opened this thread which really doesn't have anything to do with my original thread. However this thread still covers an area which should have attention paid to it.

First off, I don't care how attached a player has become to his character, if that character has abilities, stats, exp levels, not earned in normal game play then those should be removed and the player brought into line with what it should be.

Secondly regarding abilities earned in classic drakkar that were either returned to classic players or that they were allowed to somehow keep when the players were transferred from classic. Those should be removed. Management at the time told us that they would be removed.

Additionally, rewards for turning in bug abuse in the future should be strictly out of game rewards. Rewarding of DrakkarBucks at the Drakkar store is one possibility as is crediting the account.

Players who receive gains by testing bugs prior to turning the bugs in should never be allowed to keep those gains. Any player presently having gains from "testing" bugs should have those gains removed.