Sysop Characters, Their Twinks, and Bug Rewards

[Brad]

I've reopened this thread on a more positive note. I'm afraid I got a bit unprofessional
in the last thread, so i've nuked it and decided to start fresh.

There are some questions that have been opened.

1) Do sysops have an advantage which gives their real characters an unfair edge?

2) Are old characters that have received special abilities, improvements, or one time items (or items that no longer generate), more of a hinderance to the game than they
are worth.. And if so, what do we do about them. Is it fair to give them something one day, then take it away another because others can't directly "attain" this ability.

3) For "non" beta test areas, (where bugs are expected to be reported normally), should characters who assist in locating bugs be rewarded, and if so, how.

[Brad]

On the first point, .. I'd like to say that other than a few minor breaches and lack of understanding on the part of sysops, there hasn't been any hanky panky with real characters.

They tend to monitor each other in a very competive way.

[Elessar010]

1) I can't honestly say I understand why anyone would care if Sysops' real characters had some advantages, as long as they don't use them to help non-sysops get items, which would obviously be a bad thing. I have more faith in them than to suspect they might go on hunts to get normal players lair items using super abilities or anything cheap like that, not to mention they'd probably get caught if they did and recieve the fiery wrath of Brad hehe.

2) As far as old items go, as the posessor of a set of Nork moon boots, an easter robe, and at least a couple other special items, I'd be a little upset if they just disappeared one day. I consider them the perks of having played for many years and shelled out a few hundred dollars to drakkar. I also would hardly call them unbalancing the game when just a few very old accounts have a handful of cool items, or special stats/abilities, I don't see people getting up hunts and saying "We have to wait for XXXX to get on because he has YYYY item/power from an old event and it makes this much easier." They are among the last bits of gear that can't be handed out to level 13 begging newbies, and as such, are nice to have since you can't feel proud of having reggies or sliths or half the KQ/Pgear anymore because everyone and his brother has them.

3) Bugs I have little opinion about other than most don't merit much of a reward for stumbling across, maybe a little gold for the inconvenience. I just don't like the idea of encouraging players to perform every action they can with various NPC's in hopes of finding a way to break them or lose an item and get a big reward.

Elessar010 (NOT RAGE)

[Relic]

Originally posted by Brad


2) Are old characters that have received special abilities, improvements, or one time items (or items that no longer generate), more of a hinderance to the game than they
are worth.. And if so, what do we do about them. Is it fair to give them something one day, then take it away another because others can't directly "attain" this ability.

Its not like this hasnt already happen, Ninja class, certain healer with a bit too much hp(at the time), class nerfs in the name of "balancing the game." Was it fair for all those who had attained the abilities to have it nerf? If not then why is this an issue?

I am not going to say nerf it, but I do believe in equal opportunity/fairness, ie if x can get it, y should be able to obtain it too via some means. And no, bug exploit then reporting shouldnt be it...sure you can reward it to the one who did it, but some other means via IN GAME should be allowed for it. ie a quest of sorts. Not everyone is a programmer, if its limited to finding/creating bugs and exploiting it then turning it in, it would not be of equal opportunity.

If the above is not willing to be consider, then i would ask why? If the answer then is it will disrupt the game balance if everyone had them....then you might want to consider: are the people who have such item/ability/discipline not disrupting game balance by using them? If so, I'm sure you know the right thing to do...and all other reasons be it personal or whatever should not be a factor.

[Terrel]

Originally posted by Brad


1) Do sysops have an advantage which gives their real characters an unfair edge?

Well, yes, they do, but ...! Assuming they don't use their sysop crits to help out friends, the potential for abuse does not lie there. The potential for abuse lies in the fact that they KNOW more than a regular player can know. But if they choose to exploit that, they dont' need to play to do so. They could simply tell their friends. So I dont' think it is an issue for sysops to play their real characters in the game, regardless of whether you are speaking of NL or any other scenario.

2) Are old characters that have received special abilities, improvements, or one time items (or items that no longer generate), more of a hinderance to the game than they
are worth.. And if so, what do we do about them. Is it fair to give them something one day, then take it away another because others can't directly "attain" this ability.

special abilities given out by authorized game operators are fine and dandy, and if i'd had one that I'd been given, I'd be quite annoyed to have it taken away <G> Ditto for 1 of a kind items. IMO, that's up the game operators.

OTOH, I'm not so sure that the incident or issue that started this thread (and some spirited chat in DZ <G>) is related to abilities granted by Sysops. It is my understanding, albeit not firsthand, that the larger issue is crits that have benefitted from bugs. For example, if I find a bug (intentionally or not) that grants me 50 skill, imo, i shouldn't be allowed to keep those gains. They were not intended by the game designer, and they give the recipient an unbalancing advantage. Items from mega lairs are not unbalancing..extra discs that other players have access to are not unbalancing. Large differences in skill which are (or were) not attainable by other players are, imo, unbalancing, particularly in light of the new segment.

3) For "non" beta test areas, (where bugs are expected to be reported normally), should characters who assist in locating bugs be rewarded, and if so, how.

sure, so long as not unbalancing..a few extra hp's or eps, a disc that the class would not normally have, and extra skill or exp level...perhaps a megalair item..whatever game ops feel appropriate. 5 skill levels? Ixnay!

[Elessar010]

The point of special event/mega lair items is just that. They are special. If anyone and everyone can get them, they stop being special and just become the same stuff everyone has. There will be more events, and there will be more mega lairs with more unique or almost unique items to be had.
Removing ninjas and occasionally taking away super-powerful character's stats aren't the same as taking away gear that was given out. Ninjas were the result of a WISH, they weren't orignally intended to be in Drakkar and when they didn't work out, Brad did what he felt he needed to do. Players occasionally think of ways to make a super character by using their knowledge and abilities as high level charcters to make low-level characters that can do things the programmers never intended, like gettint 500ep's at level 1. Obviously when these players lose some of that, it's because the programmers said "We made a mistake, left a loop hole, and those gains are not supposed to happen." If they didn't stop them, everyone could make those super characters, but if they do stop them, then the first person or two to discover a loop hole and bend game rules get huge rewards and then everyone gets upset about not being able to have the super character. The differance is the items given out to players from events and mega lairs were intentional, I didn't get moon boots because I found a way to smuggle them over from Cob when Brad clearly was trying to keep Cob gear out of Nork.
I have to admit, I get confused trying to understand what you mean starting with the second sentence of your second paragraph, perhaps you can clarify what you mean about finding bugs, giving quests etc. Are you saying the currently unique items should not be given out for finding bugs, but should instead be the subject of a quest? I would certainly agree not to give them out just because you found a bug, but it would be a HUGE hassle to make lairs for *ALL* the special items in game and it would only detract from the game, making almost nothing be special any more.

Elessar010 (NOT RAGE)

Edit: The post was a reply to Relic, not Terrel, hehe in the time it took me to compose this lengthy post, Terrel had posted a reply I hadn't read.

[Relic]

thats because u've missed his meaning....or I've read it wrong. But if I am correct, hes saying that he's already given something out as a reward.....and he feels it unfair to have to take it back. I am pointing out that its just as unfair to remove ninja, to remove the hp off a healer, to nerf a couple class disc when only a handful of people have work hard under the ien skill system to obtain what they got.

as to your question.....I am saying nothing should be exclusive for one or a few players.
That you have mention in terms of gear is not even material to me, as more megas will come forth and more "candies" will drop. So in that sense, its not exclusive. We are referring to "exclusive" rewards/perks/tweaks.

[Drdrunk]

mmmmm... everytime we talk about bug abuse, noone mentions ien disarm, nor chain stun you know at least 3/4 of the entire ien population was apart of that, should every item be wiped because of that since it wasn't legitly gotten, since most people wouldn't be as big as they are without those items gotten from the disarm/stun bug(rhetorical). i don't think anyone should be twinked beyond stuff gainable by playable means(events/MLs are totally different subject, nothing wrong with those), but it's extremely ironic that people complain about bugs/glitches/people after ien. (i probably seem like a raving madman about now, heh)

[Relic]

Thats cause they arent bugs. Ien skilling was slow and tedious and those were the rewards... as for the drakkar population getting all that gear via that disarm/chain stun bug as you refer to...there were a total of 6 disarming pally at the time, and about the same in pws healers who could stun all kq lairs...I certainly remember how hard it was to find one, so i dont know where u come up with most people getting items gotten that way...

However, i do agree with your final statement : I don't think anyone should be twinked beyond stuff gainable by playable means.
Make it either open for all or no one can have it.

[Stormwind]

Originally posted by Brad

1) Do sysops have an advantage which gives their real characters an unfair edge?

I don't feel they have any major advantage. Some knowledge perhaps, but that is short-lived. I've dealt with all the sysops at one time or another and I think they all love the game and conduct themselves honorably.

Originally posted by Brad

2) Are old characters that have received special abilities, improvements, or one time items (or items that no longer generate), more of a hinderance to the game than they
are worth.. And if so, what do we do about them. Is it fair to give them something one day, then take it away another because others can't directly "attain" this ability.

I think "old" characters have earned the right to whatever item they may have. They've been with Drakkar for very long periods of time, demonstrated their loyalty to the game. More importantly the unique items they have are mostly flash. They can be duplicated by existing items one way or another.

As for improvements. Again, they have already earned these improvements through whatever efforts they performed. Being able to cast succor or some other spell, having a few bonus points somewhere.. no big deal. Bottom line is they were rewarded by a sysop. It wasn't gotten by abuse.

Originally posted by Brad

3) For "non" beta test areas, (where bugs are expected to be reported normally), should characters who assist in locating bugs be rewarded, and if so, how.

I think this would need to be taken on a case-by-case basis. Minor insignificant bugs, probably not, other than a thank you and maybe a mental note for a small break in case an issue comes up that sysop help is required.

Major game bugs which can cause major problems.. yes. Assuming the character can be determined to have not taken advantage of this bug in the first place. Perhaps some small token of thanks for preventing a bigger problem which would take up a greater portion of the game-ops time to correct, and possibly inconvienence a great number of <cough> <cough> "innocents" who were unaware that they were abusing a bug.
I think an interesting item, or spell-ability would be cool and not unbalancing.


Personally I think this feeding frenzy on sysops is revolting. They are nice people that VOLUNTEER their time to try to make the game more enjoyable for you. People tend to take advantage of them, lying to get unearned items for example. Always nagging them with petty arguments.. like children in a schoolyard.

Someone mentioned a sysop appreciation day... well here's an idea. Grow Up.

(btw Brad.. well said on that post. even though you nuked it)

-Stormwind

[Arkon]

This is not the same issue which I originally brought up, however I will state what I feel the "appropriate" thing to do regarding gains by bugs or gifts by developers.

First off, regarding gains by bugs... they should never be allowed to keep gains by abusing bugs. Attempting to pass off their gains by saying "I was testing it out before I turned it in" really doesn't wash. Bugs should be reported immediately and any abuse of bugs should be treated as a violation of TOS, and subject to the penalties described, warning, rollback, erasure.

Favoritism should not come into play in the game, I really don't care if player A goes bowling with developer B every Tuesday night. There should be no "grey area" in how to handle bug abuse. If it is found that players know about bugs and don't turn them in, the same penalties should be applied as to the violation of TOS above.

Regarding players that have been rewarded by developers at previous times, those "rewards" should be removed if either 1) they are not achievable by player characters of the same class or 2) the accumulation of those rewards are of such a nature that the character in question becomes tweaked to such an extent that they are able to handle areas with ease in which other characters of the same size, and skill are unable to even play the area.

Regarding future "rewards" for turning in bugs, any said rewards should not be of a permanent nature. For example, no permanent stat increases, no permanent gain in skill/experience levels.

Players that received "wishes" in Classic Drakkar, should not be allowed to keep the abilities granted by those wishes. This really shouldn't even come into play as the player characters brought over from classic weren't supposed to be able to keep those abilities to begin with. The transfer of characters from classic was supposed to have been done according to a template that Randy had posted at that time.

In short, bug abuse should be deemed a violation of TOS, knowingly aiding bug abusers by not turning in bug abuse should be a violation of TOS. Testing bug abuse should be left to the development team and players who gain from "testing" bugs and then turning the bugs in should be considered to be in violation of TOS.

Any rewards given for either helping out development or by turning in bug abusers should be of a temporary nature, or if permanent should be readily available to other players in the normal gameplay.


Arkon__RIP

[Elessar010]

Bah, I feel stupid now for jumping into the topic. I should have realized Brad was talking about stuff given to players by sysops for various acts and wasn't even referring at all to event type gear. Sorry, I don't know enough about stats/skills/abilities/items given to players by sysops to even try and comment on the subject. Sorry Relic, I also misunderstood you as well, my apologies.

Elessar010 (NOT RAGE)

[Rosey]

Brad, with regard to the question you made on whether Sysops have an 'advantage' in the game. My opinion is this, I actually think they have a huge disadvantage because they have to fight a 'perception' that they are handing out information when they are not. If a guild that has a sysop finds/achieves something first then the 'perception' is that it is because a sysop is in the guild.

As you said in your earlier post there has been no "hanky panky" with the Sysops they are a trustworthy bunch who volunteer their time to put up with a lot of nonsence. All I can think is either they really love Drakkar or are certifiably insane!

I say for goodness sake let them play and leave em alone!

Rosey__RIP

[Ravaillac]

Apologies in advance for a long-winded post:

Whether people acknowledge it or not, we develop an attachment to our characters, and this is part of what makes drakkar unique. Items and abilities form part of the identity of the characters that some of us have spent thousands of hours developing.

Many of us have been playing for a long time. We would NOT necessarily choose to play and support drakkar if we had to constantly start from scratch every time ownership of drakkar changed. We were promised that we could keep our beloved characters and move them to a new home here on DZ. That's why we pay to play.

The version of Drakkar existing today, like it or not, is populated by some number of "legacy" players. Some of these legacy players have spent TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS supporting this game, and without their support Drakkar wouldn't be here for us to play.

Some may say that the DZ version of Drakkar is somehow a new game, and all ties with classic, mpgn, ien, etc should be severed and the playing field "leveled". This presumes 2 things. Firstly, that the players who spent fortunes supporting drakkar should be deprived of their most prized possessions - the characters they slaved to build. Second, that possession of these "unique" items or attributes are somehow unbalancing.

In my opinion:

1) Sysops have no informational or character advantage in Drakkar. In fact, while sysops are knowledgeable and helpful, the vast majority of them aren't power gamers, and couldn't care less about competitive concerns like rivalries between guilds. About the only fault I can find with them is that they seem to have trouble maintaining the secrecy of their sysop identities (meaning that for the most part, people know which characters are owned by which sysops).

2) Players who have minor perks, whether items or attributes, should be able to keep them. By minor, I agree with the following definition - the perks shouldn't be so unbalanced that other characters of the same class, exp, and skill can't generally do what the player with the perks can do (although the characters with the perks may have an easier or more convenient time of it). I agree that it is fundamentally unfair to allow some players access to higher skill and experience levels than that which other players can obtain. I also think it's unfair to strip the players with the "Above cap" skill, exp, etc. of their attributes. I think the obvious solution is to remove the skill, exp, etc. caps or raise the existing caps to the level achieved by the highest skill, exp, etc. players.

3) On the use and turn-in of bugs: There should be no MAJOR rewards for turning in bugs. I think MINOR PERKS are perfectly acceptable, EVEN PERKS OF A PERMANENT NATURE, as long as they aren't unbalanced (see preceding item #2).

In general, I'll conclude by saying that I think it's a tremendous shame that we are discussing this topic. I have faith in the owner and operators of DZ, and I trust them to maintain and keep the game balanced. I think we should be disgusted with how petty we are in raising this as an issue and questioning the judgment of the DZ staff, who work long and hard to run a game in addition to their regular full-time real life responsibilities.

I feel this whole topic was raised as a matter of jealousy and animosity by players simply because some people have passed benchmarks that others cant. Rather than find fault in their own play, some players assume others simply have character items & abilities that let them do things which others cant. In my opinion, some players just play better than others, gather stronger groups, work together better as a team, or some combination of the above. Nothing's changed since the days of classic, when one guild accused another of cheating and implied favoritism of the gameops. I also place partial blame for this problem on the use and abuse of the scry discipline, which allows everyone to compare who's bigger than whom like children in a locker-room.

[Jester]

Since you asked...

1) Do sysops have an advantage which gives their real characters an unfair edge?

If the sysop in question assisted in the development of all or part of a scenario, yes, they have an advantage. Otherwise, not necessarily so. To wit: if a sysop assisted in development in portions of Cob, new areas, quests, etc, they would have a distinct advantage in the knowledge they have regarding how those quests need to be solved. Take, oh, Lazloth for example. A very difficult quest that many many groups of players tried to figure out. The designer of that quest, would have a VERY significant advantage. If that sysop also had a play character, and that play character was in a guild, and the sysop by means of their play character shared how to resolve the quest with the members of that guild, it would not only be unfair to the rest of the playing population with whom that information was not shared, but would also be a violation of any NDA that sysop had with drakkar.com, ie. brad/soyer.

2) Are old characters that have received special abilities, improvements, or one time items (or items that no longer generate), more of a hinderance to the game than they
are worth.. And if so, what do we do about them. Is it fair to give them something one day, then take it away another because others can't directly "attain" this ability.

This is the bone of contention that causes the most grief, complaining, and ill will between the playing population. For that reason alone, the answer is an unequivocal, YES. I've heard all sorts of arguments, and regardless of how it is attempted to be justified, it is flat out unfair. Lets say, for example, an NPC existed in the game, that would grant a player the disc of MassTeleport if you did such and such, but the NPC granting that disc was never intended to be a part of the game. After 10 players discover this NPC and what happens when you do such and such, the NPC is removed from the game. If the NPC that gave *whatever* if you did such and such was not intended to be in the game, neither was it intended that those 10 players that discovered the fact, should have the *whatever* it is that the NPC gave, and it should be removed from the players. If you say "boo" to an NPC and he gives you +1 HP, if the NPC is removed, every player that said "boo" to that NPC should have -1 HP for every time that they said "boo" to that NPC. It is cut and dry, black and white, there is simply no grey area here.

Unique and Artifact items are a different matter altogether, but a close examination should be made regarding whether the items were/are imbalancing. Items dropped from MegaLair crits are fine, and I encourage the continuation of MegaLairs, cause, heck, they're just plain fun. Close consideration needs to be made regarding how any rewards at the end of mega lairs are distributed, as there is an impression that past distributions of said items has been inequitable, and the whining that ensues is quite frankly, unbearable. Items that were however, created by a designer of the game if he was given $100 in Real World cash, should be removed. I don't care how much $ the player in question has contributed to Drakkar by means of paying to play for however long. It's flat out wrong; black and white; there is no grey area here.

3) For "non" beta test areas, (where bugs are expected to be reported normally), should characters who assist in locating bugs be rewarded, and if so, how.

I would have to say that it is debatable whether any game that changes with the regularity that drakkar does has any "non-beta" areas. But since the question implys that the developers do think that there are "non-beta" areas, my opinion is the following: Players should report bugs in the game. Players that find bugs and take advantage of the bug instead of reporting them, should be subject to erasure, banning, or both. Players that find bugs and report them, should have the effects of the bug rolled back from their account. If any reward for reporting a bug, which we are all obligated by the TOS to report, is to be given, it should be modest, and if possible, given outside of the game. No ingame effects of bugs should be allowed to remain. Say, for example, a player finds a bug that allows a non-MA crit to get 30 MA skill in 2 days, and reports it, once they get skill 30 in MA. After reporting it, that skill should be rolled back to what it was prior to the bug. If that cannot be determined, it should be rolled back to skill 15 or below (not imbalancing as skill 15 is not difficult to get for any class other than ments <- my opinion). While it is true, that pretty much any class could get 30 MA skill, if they worked long enough and hard enough, that is a straw man, and has nothing to do with the fact that skill 30 on that crit was obtained by means of a bug. If a bug is found that allows a player to exceed the skill, exp, ep, hp, stat, etc etc, caps that exist in the game, then there should be no question that it should be rolled back as there are no other means in the game of achieving that, other than by using a bug. It is that simple folks.

While I agree that there will never be a level playing field, as there will be players/groups that play with greater skill, tactics, coordination of effort, that is no reason to justify making the playing field less level than it would be naturally. Killing a megalair crit is an achievment worthy of being rewarded; reporting bugs -- especially when you are obligated by the TOS to do so - is not. Should people be rewarded for doing their civic duty and voting in elections? for paying their taxes? for behaving like a civilzed person instead of a jackass? It is no different if you report a bug you found yourself, or if you report a bug that was found and used by someone else. Is it to be rewarded if you find someone embezzling from your company? for robbing the bank? for beating/abusing/killing their spouse?

If bug reporting is to be rewarded, it should be modest, +10 hp, or the like, but better to keep the rewards outside the game entirely, 1 month of gold plan for silver price, or 1 month of gold plan skill bonus added on top of your current skill bonuses, etc, perhaps the same items as you had planned for the drakkar store...

I do not like to see any class or person nerfed. But removing the effects of bugs is not a nerf, it is correcting a bug.

jester

[Terrel]

Jester, imo, your post is the proverbial hammer hitting the nail on the head.

There are obviously others who disagree. But appearance and perception are important, and there are large #'s of players who perceive exactly what you do.

Ravaillac, believe it or not, there are a ton of players who disagree with your position who are not motivated by jealousy and animosity. Many are motivated by simple ethics, and many of those folks are among the best players in the game.

[Ravaillac]

That's why their called opinions...everyone has one... and they're worth exactly what you paid for 'em <grin>.

Ravaillac, believe it or not, there are a ton of players who disagree with your position who are not motivated by jealousy and animosity. Many are motivated by simple ethics, and many of those folks are among the best players in the game.

[Arkon]

Originally posted by Ravaillac



That's why their called opinions...everyone has one... and they're worth exactly what you paid for 'em <grin>.

Ravaillac, believe it or not, there are a ton of players who disagree with your position who are not motivated by jealousy and animosity. Many are motivated by simple ethics, and many of those folks are among the best players in the game.

Problem is Ravaillac... and I'm 100% sure that you are aware of what you are saying.

None of you can argue the point that tweaked characters don't belong in the game so instead of arguing that point you switch to an attack on the person.

I really don't care whether you feel that jealousy or animosity propelled me to post on the subject. That's your opinion and I can't argue that.

What people earned in the past really isn't relevant here. If Ender was allowed to have his ring (which he earned) in this version it would be extremely unbalancing. It was unbalancing then and it would be unbalancing now.

What people earned or how attached they are to the characters is not something to be taken into consideration.

If a player abused bugs to build a character, and nobody noticed for several years, I don't care how attached the player is to that character that character should still be subject to the same TOS that have been applied to every other player. rollback and/or deletion.

If the game is to continue growing, as I am sure Brad hopes it will, the blatant favoritism needs to end and the characters allowed in game play must be characters that were built within the rules of normal game play.

[Ravaillac]

Arkon,

I haven't made a personal attack on anyone, nor do I intend to do so. However, you are basically accusing the gameops of improper behavior and I think you're out of line on that.

If you honestly think there is "blatant favoritism" in the game, then I think you're flat out wrong. Gameops have been accused of favoritism since the early days on classic. I've been in a position where gameops were accused of showing favoritism to the group I played with, and I can tell you that it just plain stinks when people make such accusations. It's pretty RIDICULOUS if you think about it. You think the gameops are going bowling and golfing every week with the players???? Brad said the accusation is baseless in the old thread before he nuked it. His word that he's running the game fair and square is good enough for me, and from what I've seen over the years he's been pretty consistent about applying policies evenly.

Now, turning to the substantive issues that Brad raised, if you'll once again look at my post and read a bit more closely you'll find that there are areas where <gasp> WE AGREE.

We both agree that there are some things that are unbalancing, although we might disagree as to what those are. And in my opinion, MERE PERKS (as defined in my post) are not unbalancing (by definition), and should remain a part of the game.

So yes, I agree with you, an artifact "skill doubler ring" would be unbalancing, because it lets someone do something that another player of similar exp, skill, etc. cannot do. On the other hand, a Martial Artist who happens to have the Featherfall disc is not, imho, able to do something another player of similar exp, skill, etc. cannot do. Therefore I'd say nix the skill doubler ring, but allow the featherfall disc.

Things that people have that make some tasks a bit easier or more convenient fall into the "mere perk" category. Give that same MA Earthcrush instead of featherfall - now I think we've moved into "unbalanced" territory. I trust Brad and the other gameops to use their judgment on this kinda thing. If anything, from what I've seen, they tend to err on the more conservative side of things anyway.

Please let's not muddle the issues. There are 3 open questions that Brad raised. Let's address each one separately and try to keep this discussion organized.

So I've mentioned issue #1, the sysops, and issue #2, the perk abilities and items. I think my proposed solution to issue #3 is pretty fair and reasonable also. If some people have character attributes above the legitimate game range, remove the caps and let the rest of the game migrate their stats to the same position. I dont think it's fair or reasonable to institute Ex Post Facto rules to chop some people down just to make others happy, especially when Brad has pretty much said that nobody's coming to the table with clean hands.

[Jester]

Hi again...

The problem I see with your solution to #3 Rav, is that if having stats, abilities above the normal in-game caps is potentially unbalancing when one player crit has it, example, skill 40 in whatever, the solution should not be to remove the caps for the rest of the playing population as you suggest. This would allow the rest of the playing population to be just as out of balance with the game environment as that one crit is that has skill 40 in whatever. That would mean that the game environment would need to be adjusted upwards to keep it challenging, and is what leads to MUDflation, which is a very slippery slope. It's the whole "give a mouse a cookie, and he'll come back and ask for a glass of milk" scenario.

I tend to take issue with why a distinction should be made between an ability that makes things merely more convenient verses outright unbalancing, if that ability was gained by discovery of a bug, or from a reward given from the devs for reporting a bug. This seems to imply that ethics, for some reason, do not apply to computer games, online games, etc, which I do not think is the case.

Should it be allowed/condoned that one player in a game of chess moves the other players rook when their opponent looks away? Should it be allowed in checkers that you remove your opponents king when they go to the bathroom? Should it be allowed that when playing poker, you are allowed to palm an ace and hide it in your sleve until you get a hand where you could use it to it's best advantage? In these instances we can all agree that this is what's comonly referred to as cheating, but for some reason, finding a bug in a computer game, reporting it, and then being allowed to keep the affects of the bug is, for some reaon, to be allowed.

If, as an example, you discover that on the 31st of every month, between the hours of midnight and 5 minutes after midnight, the alarm system of a particular bank is completely disabled, and the doors and the vault are completly unlocked. Should you choose to test this, and enter the bank during one of those event windows, and remove $100,000 from the vault, and then report it to the bank, do you honestly think that the bank would allow you to keep the $100,000 as a reward for reporting a problem with their alarm system? As a further example, if you use a computer program to file your taxes, and there's a bug in the program, which under-calculates the amount of taxes due, and you discover the flaw in the program and report it to the developers and the IRS, do you think that the IRS will not hold you liable for the difference between taxes paid and taxes due? or that the developers of the program will accept the tax liability for that difference on your behalf since it was due to a bug?

Right is right, and wrong is wrong. Questions of ethics apply to real life, board games, and computer games alike. If someone in Drak, gained something that was caused by the bug, whatever it was should be removed from that players crit. If the bug was not intended to be in the game, neither were the effects of that bug intended to be in the game, and should not be allowed to remain on any player crit that happened to discover the bug. Regardless of if they abused the bug, tested to find all the iterations of actions that would cause the bug, or reported it immediately, the effects of the bug were not intended to be in the game any more that the bug itself was. If the developers remove the bug, they should remove the effects of the bug as well.

I realize my position may sound harsh, but questions of right and wrong sometimes are. It's even harsher for Brad and the Sysops, because they genuinely want to do the right thing, and reward players for doing the right thing and not ruining the game environment for the rest of the playing population. That they allowed players to keep the effects of bugs that they turned in, or distributed rewards for turning in bugs was a mistake to begin with. It is an even bigger mistake to not realize that it probably wasn't the best idea to do so, but that it was all they had to work with at the time, and that now that other methods of distributing rewards exists, ie, drakkar-store items, etc, that retroactive corrective action should not be taken.

This is just my opinion, as Brad, and any other developers, can make whatever decision they want. But if they don't realize that the bad decisions of the past, regardless of having the best of intentions when making those decisions, are directly responsible for the ill-will, back-biting, name-calling, envy, jealousy, or whatever you perceieve to be the causes of threads like this (and I again agree with Ravaillac that it's a crying shame that these threads even come up), then they are compounding their previous mistakes.

It sucks to be in Brad, et al's, position -- giving rewards to people and then to have to turn around and take them back -- but if you give a 10 year/old a .22 long rifle, and find that it causes big problems for whatever reason, do you let them keep it? No, you take it from them, and put it up on a shelf. If you give a teenager a cell phone, and they end up with a $500 phone bill at the end of the month from all the cell charges, do you let them keep it? No, you disable outbound calls, put restrictions on outbound, etc. If you give your kid a checking account, and they start bouncing checks all over town, do you let them keep it? While none of these examples are very good analogies to the questions at hand, they are only to demonstrate that it is often a worse mistake to not take corrective action following an unwise decision, than the unwise decision was in the first place. I don't envy the position that Brad is in, but sincerely hope he makes the right decision, even if it's the harder, istby, decision to make.

Thanks, and sorry for the long winded reply...

Jester

[Awheg]

First let me say I could be wrong. But at the end of an event once a sysop gave a player a perm potion that took their agility above nork and cob obtainable levels. I won't name names but I remember this very well. This sysop/sysops definatly played favorites with this player on more than one occasion. It doesn't matter how you suger coat it... It is wrong.

As for players given powerfull discs that don't belong to their class. It is unbalancing, unfair and is like being allowed to cheat. The same is true for the bug abusers that turn in the bugs after they got what they wanted. Being allowed to go above the exp/skill caps by bugs or a gift from the developer is wrong.

The designers/developers/sysops/ or friends of those three should not have regular personal account characters that are unobtainable by any other players. If say brad wanted to test characters with above max skill and experience they should be rolled back when the test is complete.

While artifacts from megalairs are ok. The distribution of the item is not fair, and needs to be changed. One artifact per account, and a roller type system. Being the highest level and popular shouldn't be the deciding factors.

Awheg

[Ravaillac]

Jester,

Thank you for your cogent arguments (seriously), with which I just happen to disagree I guess.

On your first point, I think the nature of open-ended RPGs is that "MudFlation" is not only inevitable, but desirable. Once you get to a point where you can't grow, the game's dead.

As for your second point, if I was able to walk out of the bank with $100k and I reported it, no, I wouldnt EXPECT them to let me keep it all. But if for some reason they decided they WOULD let me keep part or even all of it, I wouldn't say that's unethical of them per se. It might be to their benefit to let smart, honest people figure out their security flaws and turn them in for 100k in rewards than to wait for some UNSCRUPULOUS person to come in and steal the entire $100 million in the vault.

Rightly or wrongly, it's common practice to reward people simply for doing the right thing. If someone finds my wallet when I lose it, and returns it to me intact, I give them a reward. I'm not obligated to, and I use my judgment as to the amount. I think the same should apply to people who turn in bugs. Key word being JUDGMENT.

As for Ahweg's comment: "The distribution of the item is not fair, and needs to be changed. One artifact per account, and a roller type system. Being high level and popular shouldn't be the deciding factors." I ***STRONGLY*** disagree, but I think it's off-topic for this thread.

[Relic]

Originally posted by Ravaillac


As for your second point, if I was able to walk out of the bank with $100k and I reported it, no, I wouldnt EXPECT them to let me keep it all. But if for some reason they decided they WOULD let me keep part or even all of it, I wouldn't say that's unethical of them per se. It might be to their benefit to let smart, honest people figure out their security flaws and turn them in for 100k in rewards than to wait for some UNSCRUPULOUS person to come in and steal the entire $100 million in the vault.

out of line... the point of contention is someone walked out with 100k and "USED IT ALL". then went back and told them how he took the 100k. Not only did he not get criminally charged, but got a pad on the back and told thanks for reporting the method, dont worry about the 100k you "STOLE", and here, have a key chain.

Anyone who find this justifiable and supports it because "IT WAS DONE" have a severe lack of moral.

[Arkon]

Originally posted by Ravaillac


Arkon,

I haven't made a personal attack on anyone, nor do I intend to do so. However, you are basically accusing the gameops of improper behavior and I think you're out of line on that.

If you honestly think there is "blatant favoritism" in the game, then I think you're flat out wrong. Gameops have been accused of favoritism since the early days on classic. I've been in a position where gameops were accused of showing favoritism to the group I played with, and I can tell you that it just plain stinks when people make such accusations. It's pretty RIDICULOUS if you think about it. You think the gameops are going bowling and golfing every week with the players???? Brad said the accusation is baseless in the old thread before he nuked it. His word that he's running the game fair and square is good enough for me, and from what I've seen over the years he's been pretty consistent about applying policies evenly.

Now, turning to the substantive issues that Brad raised, if you'll once again look at my post and read a bit more closely you'll find that there are areas where <gasp> WE AGREE.

We both agree that there are some things that are unbalancing, although we might disagree as to what those are. And in my opinion, MERE PERKS (as defined in my post) are not unbalancing (by definition), and should remain a part of the game.

So yes, I agree with you, an artifact "skill doubler ring" would be unbalancing, because it lets someone do something that another player of similar exp, skill, etc. cannot do. On the other hand, a Martial Artist who happens to have the Featherfall disc is not, imho, able to do something another player of similar exp, skill, etc. cannot do. Therefore I'd say nix the skill doubler ring, but allow the featherfall disc.

Things that people have that make some tasks a bit easier or more convenient fall into the "mere perk" category. Give that same MA Earthcrush instead of featherfall - now I think we've moved into "unbalanced" territory. I trust Brad and the other gameops to use their judgment on this kinda thing. If anything, from what I've seen, they tend to err on the more conservative side of things anyway.

Please let's not muddle the issues. There are 3 open questions that Brad raised. Let's address each one separately and try to keep this discussion organized.

So I've mentioned issue #1, the sysops, and issue #2, the perk abilities and items. I think my proposed solution to issue #3 is pretty fair and reasonable also. If some people have character attributes above the legitimate game range, remove the caps and let the rest of the game migrate their stats to the same position. I dont think it's fair or reasonable to institute Ex Post Facto rules to chop some people down just to make others happy, especially when Brad has pretty much said that nobody's coming to the table with clean hands.

Refering to peoples posts being motivated by jealousy is hardly addressing content.

I feel this whole topic was raised as a matter of jealousy and animosity by players simply because some people have passed benchmarks that others cant. Rather than find fault in their own play, some players assume others simply have character items & abilities that let them do things which others cant.

As with other posters I really don't see how inflating everybody else's abilities is a solution. Drakkar is a favorite of long time players mainly precisely because it takes a long time to build up characters. It is as Ender said regarding ice floes in nameless... in that he hopes Brad doesn't make it easier after he suffered 16 eats.

Whether the number of tweaked crits is only a few or many... the proper way to get the game back in balance is not to inflate everybody else... it is to limit the tweaked players.

Regardless, again this isn't the point I made during the thread I opened.

[Ender]

Yes... but immediatly after I asked that he did not make it EASIER.. he did.. i guess he caved to COMPLAINTS..... which is what I am worried about on this thread....

I am truly worried that brad will WIMP OUT now and listen to a couple of complaints by old time players that is backed up by a PACK of SCREAMING NEWBIES that really know nothing about the game or the history of the game....

My advice is BRAD.... DO NOT CAVE IN.... be TRUE TO WHAT IS RIGHT....whatever that is.. but whatever you decide to do about this.. i hope YOU ARE PROUD of YOURSELF with your response... think about that long and hard.... if you take an action that makes you sick at your stomach.. MAYBE IT IS THE WRONG ACTION....

Problems similar to this have cropped up in the past MANY TIMES... for different reasons.... USUALLY when a new area arrives and some group starts to understand it and starts to do well.... <I> at least have 12 years history of seeing this... I USED to post in forum all the time.. but got tired of the BICKERING.. so I rarely post....

MY FONDEST DESIRE is that you do what you think is RIGHT and TRUE on this subject and that you do not WIMP OUT and FOLD to the CRYING of those that dont have what SOMEONE ELSE HAS.... my goodness.. are we gonna take back all the COWYBOY HATS.. are we gonna REMOVE SPECS are we going to SHAVE HITPOINTS.. where will this end??

REMOVE SCRY FROM THE GAME.. it is a destructive disc to moral of the game... already posted by a COUPLE of posts is 'WHAT I SAW WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE' and the way they SAW it was SCRY.... to SEE is not to UNDERSTAND....

Anyway.... I hope you can have the intestinal fortitude do do the RIGHT THING and to not give in to the SQUEAKY WHEEL.... too many times in these days..... the NICE FOLKS FINISH LAST and the WHINERS ARE THE ONES THAT WIN only for the reason to SHUT THEM UP.... how silly and how wrong!!!!

DO THE RIGHT THING!!!!

Ender