I brought this up a short while ago, but I think the post got lost, so here we go again...
I've been chatting with several players and am wondering...
Many players feel that there is no risk in the game right now. However, when a mega is put into the game and people take a risk they complain about loosing gear or perm hits or exp, etc. Thieves can steal from other players, but others complain that it's not right. Those are just two examples.
What I need to know is what would you guys consider a risk that should be in the game?
I realize that regardless of what is done someone will complain about it. But I must agree, that the element of risk could certainly be greater.
Any ideas?
Drakkar Risk
Replying to Topic 'Drakkar Risk'
Yes, add risk ... but it must be a risk a player chooses ... with some sense of its proportion. Just my opinion.
Ambrose
Ambrose
Replying to Topic 'Drakkar Risk'
There is plenty of risk in the game just not for VERY VERY large players like the lvl 50's who have rather easy time in most area's. But for the overall people there is ALOT of risks in the game if you actually go out and hunt in a hard area or even explore areas you have yet been too. I have been playing for about 5 years off and on and i know there are risks everywhere its just a matter or not that you choose to take these risk. I know most people are to scared to take these risks and then say theres not enough risk in the game. I know Fenris said before in a previous post on another topic that the game has gotten alot easier with less eaters and less strips. I think both those could be put in for all those who say there arent enough risks <G>. For me i personally say there is plenty of risk and personally wouldnt mind the above statement about more eaters and strips in normal areas. But ill say it again there are plenty of risks in this game its just a matter of you taking the risk or not
Replying to Topic 'Drakkar Risk'
Originally posted by Ambrose
Yes, add risk ... but it must be a risk a player chooses ... with some sense of its proportion. Just my opinion.
Ambrose
{{scratches head}} I recently heard of that computer that calculated Pi to like 400 trillion digits... Hopefully, we can borrow it to decipher this post.
Replying to Topic 'Drakkar Risk'
Risk is relative I suppose. I don't have the same risk in a Slicer lair as an experience 20 barbarian.
Concerning megalairs, the hitpoint loss is manageable but is exploited way too much in my opinion. It's gonna take me 180 megs of coining to regain my hits. For a few hours of so-called risk, if I can coin 2-3 meg on a normal skilling trip in an hour, it will take me 60 hours of coining to recover the hitpoint loss. In my opinion, that is way out of line. Not to mention other things I might have to do to retrieve lost hitpoints, which I cannot mention here.
As far as the other risks of the game, I'm not sure what is meant. The risks are in some ways greater than they were on the Classic Version in that the creatures are less powerful and have less hitpoints (Nork.) From the Showcase, MPGN and IEN version of Drakkar, the risks are similar. However, powerwordstun and other ways of chain stunning, blind or push have been made where lairs are more risky than previous versions.
This is somewhat overcome from the player base being larger in size. This larger group of large players also skews any view of past risk taking. Players were smaller in previous versions and did not have the same mechanisms or abilities that are present now, so had there own avenue of risks.
With all that said, I find nothing wrong with the risk of the current game. It is, after all, relative to the the size of the players(s) I don't buy the old player saying, "back in our day blah blah blah." there was more risk. I consider myself a veteran player having played since the early days and in all the versions. There are different factors to consider in each version and comparing risk to other versions is not proper nor should it be considered.
The time is now and if players on the whole want more risk, so be it. I do believe if anyone wants to stretch the envelope of risk, wear less armor, rings and other protections.
:D
Concerning megalairs, the hitpoint loss is manageable but is exploited way too much in my opinion. It's gonna take me 180 megs of coining to regain my hits. For a few hours of so-called risk, if I can coin 2-3 meg on a normal skilling trip in an hour, it will take me 60 hours of coining to recover the hitpoint loss. In my opinion, that is way out of line. Not to mention other things I might have to do to retrieve lost hitpoints, which I cannot mention here.
As far as the other risks of the game, I'm not sure what is meant. The risks are in some ways greater than they were on the Classic Version in that the creatures are less powerful and have less hitpoints (Nork.) From the Showcase, MPGN and IEN version of Drakkar, the risks are similar. However, powerwordstun and other ways of chain stunning, blind or push have been made where lairs are more risky than previous versions.
This is somewhat overcome from the player base being larger in size. This larger group of large players also skews any view of past risk taking. Players were smaller in previous versions and did not have the same mechanisms or abilities that are present now, so had there own avenue of risks.
With all that said, I find nothing wrong with the risk of the current game. It is, after all, relative to the the size of the players(s) I don't buy the old player saying, "back in our day blah blah blah." there was more risk. I consider myself a veteran player having played since the early days and in all the versions. There are different factors to consider in each version and comparing risk to other versions is not proper nor should it be considered.
The time is now and if players on the whole want more risk, so be it. I do believe if anyone wants to stretch the envelope of risk, wear less armor, rings and other protections.
:D
Replying to Topic 'Drakkar Risk'
Flisk,
In my opinion the answer to your question is that risk should always be balanced with reward, and the damage/pain suffered by players should always be REPARABLE if enough time is spent doing it.
Low reward areas should be low risk.
High reward areas should be high risk.
The highest risk should be in lairs or in quests, where the rewards are expected to be the highest as well (new items, abilities, etc).
The players should have some CLUES when they are approaching a risky area so they can willingly accept the risks.
Some general ideas:
in dungeons, players should gain the best skill, exp, and random drops in harder areas. There should be enough risk suffered in those harder areas that players who are too small to hunt there effectively will become discouraged from hunting there. These areas should be designed so that they can be hunted by a) large exp/skill solo players; or b) a party of 2-3 players who are efficient team players; or c) a larger group of normal players who are somewhat less efficient. Right now, if you die, generally nothing bad happens except you drop your weapon. While that's ok in some areas, the higher skill & exp-yeilding dungeons should cost you something when you die.
There should be enough areas that players can opt to stay in lower risk, lower reward areas rather than have to face high risks in order to grow at all.
I think one of the biggest changes since classic is in the risks associated with lairs. Back on classic, if you accepted the risks of dying in a lair (getting stripped, eaten, with all the time needed to regain exp and skill), you could receive great rewards (exceptional armor like mama scales, or weapons like saber or chipuda staff). These were very challenging and very few players were willing to pay the price to obtain such items. As a result, they were highly prized. The fun part was that obtaining such items would allow you to skill and exp more quickly than those who refused to take the risks associated with obtaining the items. I'd like to see some of this carried forward into new designs.
In my opinion the answer to your question is that risk should always be balanced with reward, and the damage/pain suffered by players should always be REPARABLE if enough time is spent doing it.
Low reward areas should be low risk.
High reward areas should be high risk.
The highest risk should be in lairs or in quests, where the rewards are expected to be the highest as well (new items, abilities, etc).
The players should have some CLUES when they are approaching a risky area so they can willingly accept the risks.
Some general ideas:
in dungeons, players should gain the best skill, exp, and random drops in harder areas. There should be enough risk suffered in those harder areas that players who are too small to hunt there effectively will become discouraged from hunting there. These areas should be designed so that they can be hunted by a) large exp/skill solo players; or b) a party of 2-3 players who are efficient team players; or c) a larger group of normal players who are somewhat less efficient. Right now, if you die, generally nothing bad happens except you drop your weapon. While that's ok in some areas, the higher skill & exp-yeilding dungeons should cost you something when you die.
There should be enough areas that players can opt to stay in lower risk, lower reward areas rather than have to face high risks in order to grow at all.
I think one of the biggest changes since classic is in the risks associated with lairs. Back on classic, if you accepted the risks of dying in a lair (getting stripped, eaten, with all the time needed to regain exp and skill), you could receive great rewards (exceptional armor like mama scales, or weapons like saber or chipuda staff). These were very challenging and very few players were willing to pay the price to obtain such items. As a result, they were highly prized. The fun part was that obtaining such items would allow you to skill and exp more quickly than those who refused to take the risks associated with obtaining the items. I'd like to see some of this carried forward into new designs.
Replying to Topic 'Drakkar Risk'
To make things simple:
The past risks in Nork and Cob aren't the same and will never be the same.
For example, a Chipuda hunt, back in the day, it would take dang near everyone in game to kill him , if a PWS and disarm weren't available, which most often they werent, but now a party of 4 can go in and kill him in under 2 minutes, with the right-sized and right classes in that party.
The thing that has drastically changed the risk factor is the number of crits in game now, that back in the day , would be considered huge or MEGA huge!
How can you counter that ? Really can't, unless you start restricting access to certain scenerios or lairs by the size of the crit, which would be a bad thing to do, IMHO.
You just can't simply make the risks larger, so that the exp 30+ player gets his fair share of damage from the lair, cause then it would be overwhelming unfair to the crits below exp lvl 25, cause they will then be taking tooo much damage by doing the hunt, and would in turn raise the bar for the appropriate size to do that lair hunt. And as far as the majority of Nork lairs, that wouldn't be good, cause ideally you want alot of the Nork gear to be attainable before a crit reaches exp 18-20, since in effect Cob was designed for those players. UNLESS, future plans were to re-tool Nork to be the one scenerio for all sizes to hunt in and exp/skill in.
But now that there are ways to repair almost all damage to one's crits, regardless of critsize...maybe Cob lairs and the upcoming scenerio (?) should all be eaters, just so the equivalent risks from the days of Nork are the same for those bigger players. I bet if all the Cob lairs ate, alot of people wouldn't camp in them naked and wait to hear their deathscream to tell them that lair crit is home <g>
Eating isn't a bad risk, just needs to be kept in proportion with what size the lair crit is intended for. For if a lair crit is designed for the crit around exp lvl 25, then the crit should eat the amount of skill and exp that is appropriate for an exp lvl 25 crit, which would funnel down to mean that if someone exp lvl 18 was eaten by it, his losses would be HUGE , very HUGE, but if an exp lvl 50 was eaten by it, his losses would be minimal. That in effect, is the very essence of risk factor. For if the crit that is smaller than the size the lair is geared towards, his risks are great, but reward is also great, and at the other end, the risks are minimal for the 50/30 crit, but so also are the rewards.
As for the Megalair risks, they should be GREAT risks for all, since they are a very unique occurance, and to be frank, aren't all that often. Also, no one is forced to attend one, that is their choice. The hard part about megas, I think, is Brad is trying to make them super hard , so they take some time to kill with the mass number of folks there, and ideally sometimes, maybe they are a bit tougher given the players that happen to be online to slay it, cause Brad has no idea who all will be there for the hunt, and can't design for a certain party of folks, with this number and that number of extremely huge folks in the party, is alot of guesswork on his part. But yet, he doesn't wanna underpower it also, so that it is a non-event. The trick to megalairs , ( I hate to say this, cause I know people will think badly of me, but wanna be honest), is to get there at the time the proper party assembles there that will actually begin the actual hunt of the thing. Not be there with 3-5 people experimenting on it, cause those experimenters are gonna take overly massive losses. But on the other hand, some experimentation on them needs to be done, so in effect they are needed to do that. I know I just majorly contradicted myself within the past couple sentences, but don't know how else to put it.
Just try to think about what I just said, and the way RPG-type of games are, and it will sorta make sense.
The past risks in Nork and Cob aren't the same and will never be the same.
For example, a Chipuda hunt, back in the day, it would take dang near everyone in game to kill him , if a PWS and disarm weren't available, which most often they werent, but now a party of 4 can go in and kill him in under 2 minutes, with the right-sized and right classes in that party.
The thing that has drastically changed the risk factor is the number of crits in game now, that back in the day , would be considered huge or MEGA huge!
How can you counter that ? Really can't, unless you start restricting access to certain scenerios or lairs by the size of the crit, which would be a bad thing to do, IMHO.
You just can't simply make the risks larger, so that the exp 30+ player gets his fair share of damage from the lair, cause then it would be overwhelming unfair to the crits below exp lvl 25, cause they will then be taking tooo much damage by doing the hunt, and would in turn raise the bar for the appropriate size to do that lair hunt. And as far as the majority of Nork lairs, that wouldn't be good, cause ideally you want alot of the Nork gear to be attainable before a crit reaches exp 18-20, since in effect Cob was designed for those players. UNLESS, future plans were to re-tool Nork to be the one scenerio for all sizes to hunt in and exp/skill in.
But now that there are ways to repair almost all damage to one's crits, regardless of critsize...maybe Cob lairs and the upcoming scenerio (?) should all be eaters, just so the equivalent risks from the days of Nork are the same for those bigger players. I bet if all the Cob lairs ate, alot of people wouldn't camp in them naked and wait to hear their deathscream to tell them that lair crit is home <g>
Eating isn't a bad risk, just needs to be kept in proportion with what size the lair crit is intended for. For if a lair crit is designed for the crit around exp lvl 25, then the crit should eat the amount of skill and exp that is appropriate for an exp lvl 25 crit, which would funnel down to mean that if someone exp lvl 18 was eaten by it, his losses would be HUGE , very HUGE, but if an exp lvl 50 was eaten by it, his losses would be minimal. That in effect, is the very essence of risk factor. For if the crit that is smaller than the size the lair is geared towards, his risks are great, but reward is also great, and at the other end, the risks are minimal for the 50/30 crit, but so also are the rewards.
As for the Megalair risks, they should be GREAT risks for all, since they are a very unique occurance, and to be frank, aren't all that often. Also, no one is forced to attend one, that is their choice. The hard part about megas, I think, is Brad is trying to make them super hard , so they take some time to kill with the mass number of folks there, and ideally sometimes, maybe they are a bit tougher given the players that happen to be online to slay it, cause Brad has no idea who all will be there for the hunt, and can't design for a certain party of folks, with this number and that number of extremely huge folks in the party, is alot of guesswork on his part. But yet, he doesn't wanna underpower it also, so that it is a non-event. The trick to megalairs , ( I hate to say this, cause I know people will think badly of me, but wanna be honest), is to get there at the time the proper party assembles there that will actually begin the actual hunt of the thing. Not be there with 3-5 people experimenting on it, cause those experimenters are gonna take overly massive losses. But on the other hand, some experimentation on them needs to be done, so in effect they are needed to do that. I know I just majorly contradicted myself within the past couple sentences, but don't know how else to put it.
Just try to think about what I just said, and the way RPG-type of games are, and it will sorta make sense.
SirRoland,
Follower of The Old Code
"Call what you need of me. Ask what you will of me. My sword, my service are yours !"
Follower of The Old Code
"Call what you need of me. Ask what you will of me. My sword, my service are yours !"
Replying to Topic 'Drakkar Risk'
Rav hit it dead on the money in my opinion...
I once was eaten 10 times or so getting the first pair of silver draggy scales on MSN. This was worth the risk because it was a first time thing and was an awesome rush.
I think most of this conversation would be moot with a new scenario. Some of the higher-end games with a veritable limitless budgets ALWAYS have new content that caters to the bleeding edge player community. Drakkar hasn't had that for some time. Of course Brad et al. doesn't have the resources these other games do so we have to sit back and be a little more patient.
I once was eaten 10 times or so getting the first pair of silver draggy scales on MSN. This was worth the risk because it was a first time thing and was an awesome rush.
I think most of this conversation would be moot with a new scenario. Some of the higher-end games with a veritable limitless budgets ALWAYS have new content that caters to the bleeding edge player community. Drakkar hasn't had that for some time. Of course Brad et al. doesn't have the resources these other games do so we have to sit back and be a little more patient.
Replying to Topic 'Drakkar Risk'
I think what ambrose ment was, when you do something in the game, it needs to be proportional. If i loose 30hp, i would hope i gain something for that loss. A pat on the back and a job well done dont cut it. I better have something to show for it.
You wouldnt go to the store and give them $100 and walk out empty handed would you? Or goto work 8 hours a day 7 days a week without getting paid would you? No, you would want a pay check. If my boss just patted me on the back and said job well done, and didnt give me something to show for my work, he would draw back a stub.
The Megalair is huge, EVERYONE wants to go. Cause they happen so rarely. So why not make it to where anyone who enters gets a little something. A token, a Robe, A cheap sword, Something that tells people, YES i was there, I got my *** whooped but I was there trying my hardest just so someone else could get the main prize. Its not that we ALL want uber gear, Well yes we all want uber gear LOL, But if we cant have the uber gear, at least give us something to show that we were there. Something that people who werent there would be jealous of.
As far as other lairs go. They need to be redone, There is to much demand and not enough supply. Ever since *Muted* came along. Everyone and their dog wants in, and it requires to many things that are already limited as is. We lost an alt on the move, so the supply is THAT much more limited. push up the regens greatly til the supply is starting to exceed the demand again, then push them back. Also, the old lairs that are long forgotten should be rebuilt into new lairs. Gear could be spread out using them. Or new gear could be supplied there. Thus making more gear availible. So others might have a chance at the old lairs, while guilds are busy with the new lairs.
I know of at least 3 lairs this could be done with, Dopple lair, old or unused vamp coffin at HG, and EarthShaker lair in Aleria. I dont think anyone hunts the witch doctor in aleria, unless they are bored waitin on Goblin King *or what ever his name is* to show. Revamp him, or make him stronger and give him something better for the kill. Some type of staff between Fisherie staff and Chipper. Also open his lair up so that there is more room in there, and make it to where you have to complete a small quest to get in there to fight him.
Well i hope these few things help you out some.
You wouldnt go to the store and give them $100 and walk out empty handed would you? Or goto work 8 hours a day 7 days a week without getting paid would you? No, you would want a pay check. If my boss just patted me on the back and said job well done, and didnt give me something to show for my work, he would draw back a stub.
The Megalair is huge, EVERYONE wants to go. Cause they happen so rarely. So why not make it to where anyone who enters gets a little something. A token, a Robe, A cheap sword, Something that tells people, YES i was there, I got my *** whooped but I was there trying my hardest just so someone else could get the main prize. Its not that we ALL want uber gear, Well yes we all want uber gear LOL, But if we cant have the uber gear, at least give us something to show that we were there. Something that people who werent there would be jealous of.
As far as other lairs go. They need to be redone, There is to much demand and not enough supply. Ever since *Muted* came along. Everyone and their dog wants in, and it requires to many things that are already limited as is. We lost an alt on the move, so the supply is THAT much more limited. push up the regens greatly til the supply is starting to exceed the demand again, then push them back. Also, the old lairs that are long forgotten should be rebuilt into new lairs. Gear could be spread out using them. Or new gear could be supplied there. Thus making more gear availible. So others might have a chance at the old lairs, while guilds are busy with the new lairs.
I know of at least 3 lairs this could be done with, Dopple lair, old or unused vamp coffin at HG, and EarthShaker lair in Aleria. I dont think anyone hunts the witch doctor in aleria, unless they are bored waitin on Goblin King *or what ever his name is* to show. Revamp him, or make him stronger and give him something better for the kill. Some type of staff between Fisherie staff and Chipper. Also open his lair up so that there is more room in there, and make it to where you have to complete a small quest to get in there to fight him.
Well i hope these few things help you out some.
Replying to Topic 'Drakkar Risk'
Purg,
The problem you demonstrate is symptomatic of the decreased risk of drakkar.
If Grraagh still ATE, people wouldn't camp him. Same with beetle. If Lori still drained hits (even if you had her robe, which she used to do), people wouldn't camp her. In short, for these lairs, the RISK is not high enough in proportion to the gain. While you couch the problem in terms of supply and demand, it's really a problem of RISK vs REWARD, where the reward is too high compared to the risk.
This is what happens when players complain and the lairs get nerfed without due consideration of the risk to reward.
Same thing with the dungeons. If you die in cob, you do steve, and that's it. There's no substantial penalty. In my opinion, when you die you should lose SOME amount of experience. Doesn't have to be a LOT. Just needs to be enough that if you are hunting an area in which you die repeatedly, you are forced to go somewhere easier because you're not making any progress.
If the LAIRS are BALANCED in risk and reward, there will be no problem with camping lairs.
If the DUNGEONS are balanced in terms of risk and reward, there will be less overcrowding (at least in the advanced areas).
The problem you demonstrate is symptomatic of the decreased risk of drakkar.
If Grraagh still ATE, people wouldn't camp him. Same with beetle. If Lori still drained hits (even if you had her robe, which she used to do), people wouldn't camp her. In short, for these lairs, the RISK is not high enough in proportion to the gain. While you couch the problem in terms of supply and demand, it's really a problem of RISK vs REWARD, where the reward is too high compared to the risk.
This is what happens when players complain and the lairs get nerfed without due consideration of the risk to reward.
Same thing with the dungeons. If you die in cob, you do steve, and that's it. There's no substantial penalty. In my opinion, when you die you should lose SOME amount of experience. Doesn't have to be a LOT. Just needs to be enough that if you are hunting an area in which you die repeatedly, you are forced to go somewhere easier because you're not making any progress.
If the LAIRS are BALANCED in risk and reward, there will be no problem with camping lairs.
If the DUNGEONS are balanced in terms of risk and reward, there will be less overcrowding (at least in the advanced areas).
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Thundar__RELM
- Posts: 116
- Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2002 6:21 pm
Replying to Topic 'Drakkar Risk'
I think Drakkar has more risk than any game ever made in the history of online gaming. It takes years to build a good crit. In one fight you can lose 100 hours or more of skill and months of xp. If you don't believe me go to n-8 and restore after a baskie kills you. You can lose hours of coining to rebuy hitpoints from exploring. This is what many of us like about Drak. It is not instant gratification as other games are. Look at Galaxies they recently had a poll of how long it should take to master your crit. A little less than half of the people said things like 15 minutes to 1 week. The extreme players were saying it should take me a whole month of playing before I master everything. Then there were 3 or 4 that said 6 months, and me alone saying it should take years to conquer everything. Drak has never had that problem.
I know that now with the join a guild and they will give you 50 megs or so to max your crit, then jump in this party and just stay back we will kill everything and cc you when you die so next month you will be skill 30 has wrecked that about Drak. Not all of us play that way though. Some of those that do don't want to but they got so bored in n-4 that they had no other choice.
I think the problem is not the risk but the new skill system. I am forced to hunt in areas where there is no risk at all. I go to km-4 which was a great risk vs reward place on IEN and I get nothing now. I can hunt there for an hour or two and have nothing in the end. Maybe .1 or .2 skill. Likewise I can go to N-6 and face no danger at all and get no rewards even after killing every crit on the level 2 or 3 times. N-7 is not much different if you stay away from the lairs. N-8 is instant death so who knows if there is skill or not there. N-4 maybe n-5 is some of the best skill in nork, but when you can go there naked and take no damage what fun is that. Cob is the same. You have the gear to survive timmy with almost no risk and you get good skill, but you also get really bored. You try to go to places like sw and nw caves, forrest etc. but even though you have risk there and it is a more exciteing place to hunt you get no skill. What is left? Join a skill party and let someone pump your crit so you can enjoy the game again.
The problem is not that there is no risk. In fact the game became harder for the average player on the move to DZ. The problem is the new skill system has forced you to play in no risk areas if you want to grow at all. Remove the skill cap and people will be taking risks all day long. You may say well then people will grow to fast, but they do that in skill parties anyway. Why not let them earn it rather than have it pumped into them? Or even design some kind of cap that is more in line with how long it takes you to kill something. Ok a skill 25 in timmy will only get .03 per kill, but a skill 15 might get .1 per kill. Remember it does take them longer to kill. Also you could still have party skill caps so that a skill 30 player is not made in 10 minutes by exploiting the gains that hte party system would then have. Then you will have people taking risks again.
Maybe higher risk areas should be established in new areas for the current huge players that have no risk in other areas. Maybe make it so that every crit in uc-5 is an eater or whatever it is they want. Do that with the easier areas for them though and everyone else in Drak is ground to a halt because they can't grow at all and just take giant steps backwards. Again I think if the skill system is redone it will balance itself out in the end and not matter anyways because I think even a level 40 player has challenges in the game they are just not worth going to. Even the level 50's can be killed, if the caps were taken off so they could grow they would not have a problem finding a challenge either.
Thundar__RELM
I know that now with the join a guild and they will give you 50 megs or so to max your crit, then jump in this party and just stay back we will kill everything and cc you when you die so next month you will be skill 30 has wrecked that about Drak. Not all of us play that way though. Some of those that do don't want to but they got so bored in n-4 that they had no other choice.
I think the problem is not the risk but the new skill system. I am forced to hunt in areas where there is no risk at all. I go to km-4 which was a great risk vs reward place on IEN and I get nothing now. I can hunt there for an hour or two and have nothing in the end. Maybe .1 or .2 skill. Likewise I can go to N-6 and face no danger at all and get no rewards even after killing every crit on the level 2 or 3 times. N-7 is not much different if you stay away from the lairs. N-8 is instant death so who knows if there is skill or not there. N-4 maybe n-5 is some of the best skill in nork, but when you can go there naked and take no damage what fun is that. Cob is the same. You have the gear to survive timmy with almost no risk and you get good skill, but you also get really bored. You try to go to places like sw and nw caves, forrest etc. but even though you have risk there and it is a more exciteing place to hunt you get no skill. What is left? Join a skill party and let someone pump your crit so you can enjoy the game again.
The problem is not that there is no risk. In fact the game became harder for the average player on the move to DZ. The problem is the new skill system has forced you to play in no risk areas if you want to grow at all. Remove the skill cap and people will be taking risks all day long. You may say well then people will grow to fast, but they do that in skill parties anyway. Why not let them earn it rather than have it pumped into them? Or even design some kind of cap that is more in line with how long it takes you to kill something. Ok a skill 25 in timmy will only get .03 per kill, but a skill 15 might get .1 per kill. Remember it does take them longer to kill. Also you could still have party skill caps so that a skill 30 player is not made in 10 minutes by exploiting the gains that hte party system would then have. Then you will have people taking risks again.
Maybe higher risk areas should be established in new areas for the current huge players that have no risk in other areas. Maybe make it so that every crit in uc-5 is an eater or whatever it is they want. Do that with the easier areas for them though and everyone else in Drak is ground to a halt because they can't grow at all and just take giant steps backwards. Again I think if the skill system is redone it will balance itself out in the end and not matter anyways because I think even a level 40 player has challenges in the game they are just not worth going to. Even the level 50's can be killed, if the caps were taken off so they could grow they would not have a problem finding a challenge either.
Thundar__RELM
Replying to Topic 'Drakkar Risk'
I'll second that: There is little reason to hunt in areas that are dangerous for a particular character under the new skill system/skill caps.
If I go to an area that is difficult to survive, I already gain little experience (Takes a long time to kill things), I gain little coin/loot (Again, takes a long time to kill things) AND I now get little skill under the new system. So why would I hunt there? As I said before in the other thread, killing stuff at the edge of my abilities IS fun in and of itself, but the cost of not really advancing my character makes it not worth it.
The new system rewards you more for taking less risk: The faster you kill, the faster you skill, so what reason would there be for fighting harder enemies that take a long time to drop?
If I go to an area that is difficult to survive, I already gain little experience (Takes a long time to kill things), I gain little coin/loot (Again, takes a long time to kill things) AND I now get little skill under the new system. So why would I hunt there? As I said before in the other thread, killing stuff at the edge of my abilities IS fun in and of itself, but the cost of not really advancing my character makes it not worth it.
The new system rewards you more for taking less risk: The faster you kill, the faster you skill, so what reason would there be for fighting harder enemies that take a long time to drop?
Last edited by Toasticle on Mon Dec 16, 2002 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Replying to Topic 'Drakkar Risk'
The skill for kill system has made it worthless to take risks.
When skill was swing based, and the size to the crit you were swinging at made a difference to the amount of skill gained, it was worthwhile to push into more dangerous areas.
Now it is a math calculation based on how much crit experience points divided by the number of swings. You are better off one stroking a bunch of 1k crits, then 3 stroking a bunch of 2k crits. Fighting a large hp crit is a waste of of time. Killing the Hill Giant, Levi, dragons, minos, etc will not gain you skill or even that much experience. If you are capable of fighting them, you are better off just stripping or popping their lairs and getting out.
The party system has reinforced the logic of riskless hunting. If you are a small crit then tagging along with a larger-bigger group and concentrating on just staying alive is enough. It seems for smaller parties (5 or less?) that having a baby crit along makes no difference to the experience or skill gain for the party.
I think that what should be done is for the two systems to be combined, so that you gain skill while swinging, and get an additional bonus when the crit dies. The additional bonus is what should be partied shared for skill gain.
Frenzy
When skill was swing based, and the size to the crit you were swinging at made a difference to the amount of skill gained, it was worthwhile to push into more dangerous areas.
Now it is a math calculation based on how much crit experience points divided by the number of swings. You are better off one stroking a bunch of 1k crits, then 3 stroking a bunch of 2k crits. Fighting a large hp crit is a waste of of time. Killing the Hill Giant, Levi, dragons, minos, etc will not gain you skill or even that much experience. If you are capable of fighting them, you are better off just stripping or popping their lairs and getting out.
The party system has reinforced the logic of riskless hunting. If you are a small crit then tagging along with a larger-bigger group and concentrating on just staying alive is enough. It seems for smaller parties (5 or less?) that having a baby crit along makes no difference to the experience or skill gain for the party.
I think that what should be done is for the two systems to be combined, so that you gain skill while swinging, and get an additional bonus when the crit dies. The additional bonus is what should be partied shared for skill gain.
Frenzy
Replying to Topic 'Drakkar Risk'
RISK = REWARD simple :p
If a game doesn't have this its out of balance.
The days of put it all on the line (ie an eat is erasure of your crit) are gone in most games and I really don't need that level. However many problems are solved if most lairs eat. High demand lairs should not have a static eat. A variable eat where you might save, you might loose a bit or just perhaps a major set back. Put that in and level 18s would be hunting in more reasoable gear and certain clubs would be more exclusive.
A potential strip or a occasional anti steve failure couldn't hurt general grunt play if the area offered anything in demand.
Thunders comments as to general risk are correct. Risk vs gain were never brought into line with the DZ kill system. There is simply no good reason to visit major areas of the game. Its been overshadowed by the PARTY SKILL SYSTEM.
So lets put some risk into that system to balance it out.
1. In the key mega party areas (where you can have others do a months worth of skilling for you in a day) lets see a mega crit that takes skill and targets only players whose skill level is equal too or greater than their experience level.
2. If gains are cumulative in a party losses should be similar. Loss multiplier should = gain multiplier. So if a party member looses hits / stats / skill etc everyone in the party should loose some. I'll bet folks would rethink how they balance their party invitations.
GENERAL RISK
Life is hard in the lands of Drakkar. The community itself is a risk. Thieves steal, players make mistakes with spells, a zerk or forgetting that a MS at the top of stairs is a bad ideal. There will even be a few nuts that will do things that simply can not be programmed with safety code. A player learns to guard against these as he matures. This is not a 1st grade school yard. Deal with these risks in game. Don't go running to sysops because Billy took your cookie (sysops are not your mommy). If Billy takes eveyones cookie every day and no one can deal with Billy then its ABUSE. Now talk to a sysop.
If a game doesn't have this its out of balance.
The days of put it all on the line (ie an eat is erasure of your crit) are gone in most games and I really don't need that level. However many problems are solved if most lairs eat. High demand lairs should not have a static eat. A variable eat where you might save, you might loose a bit or just perhaps a major set back. Put that in and level 18s would be hunting in more reasoable gear and certain clubs would be more exclusive.
A potential strip or a occasional anti steve failure couldn't hurt general grunt play if the area offered anything in demand.
Thunders comments as to general risk are correct. Risk vs gain were never brought into line with the DZ kill system. There is simply no good reason to visit major areas of the game. Its been overshadowed by the PARTY SKILL SYSTEM.
So lets put some risk into that system to balance it out.
1. In the key mega party areas (where you can have others do a months worth of skilling for you in a day) lets see a mega crit that takes skill and targets only players whose skill level is equal too or greater than their experience level.
2. If gains are cumulative in a party losses should be similar. Loss multiplier should = gain multiplier. So if a party member looses hits / stats / skill etc everyone in the party should loose some. I'll bet folks would rethink how they balance their party invitations.
GENERAL RISK
Life is hard in the lands of Drakkar. The community itself is a risk. Thieves steal, players make mistakes with spells, a zerk or forgetting that a MS at the top of stairs is a bad ideal. There will even be a few nuts that will do things that simply can not be programmed with safety code. A player learns to guard against these as he matures. This is not a 1st grade school yard. Deal with these risks in game. Don't go running to sysops because Billy took your cookie (sysops are not your mommy). If Billy takes eveyones cookie every day and no one can deal with Billy then its ABUSE. Now talk to a sysop.
Replying to Topic 'Drakkar Risk'
Originally posted by Thundar__RELM
I think Drakkar has more risk than any game ever made in the history of online gaming.
Thundar__RELM
Naw, there are a handful of "hardcore" type games out there. Ones where you die and thats it, your character is gone. That used to happen on Classic in certain circumstances. There are also pvp games where people can kill you and take something off your corpse, perhaps something you worked long and hard for. You can never get ate in Drakkar if you pick and choose where you go. Going into Eaters is a conscious decision, there isnt alot of Risk in Drakkar if you know what to look for and watch out for.
I agree with Rav's last post. Risk vs Reward was the key to Drakkar.
You have to ask yourself are things easier for a reason? Perhaps players need to have it easy now for the possible dangers of the future! >:)
Replying to Topic 'Drakkar Risk'
Good points.
Also, there's nothing wrong with having low risk areas.
My guess is that most of the time, people grunting for skill and exp enjoy it a bit more if they dont have to think too hard about things or pay 100% attention to everything.
Other times, you want to push the envelope more.
There should be a choice... play the lowe risk places for lower rewards and the high risk places for higher rewards. It's fair as long as everyone understands what to expect and can adjust their hunting areas accordingly.
Also, there's nothing wrong with having low risk areas.
My guess is that most of the time, people grunting for skill and exp enjoy it a bit more if they dont have to think too hard about things or pay 100% attention to everything.
Other times, you want to push the envelope more.
There should be a choice... play the lowe risk places for lower rewards and the high risk places for higher rewards. It's fair as long as everyone understands what to expect and can adjust their hunting areas accordingly.
Replying to Topic 'Drakkar Risk'
Frenzy and some others pointed out some valid points on risk taking and the current skill system. Under the old swing system, if a player was eaten/drained or etc, it wasn't much of a problem to regain the skill. Now, it's a much bigger problem, because imo regain is still broken in the area of current skill down to the 5 skill cap. I tested some regain on the same skill with two different slots using the same weapon and same skill level. The newly rolled slot gained much faster than the rerolled slot once the "five level below" regain cap was passed. Example, reroll from 20 skill, there will be fast skill gain from 0-15 skill, then so-called normal gain from 16-20. This is in the same range that a skill 20 player if eaten would be in if eaten.
The point I'm making on this is that an eat is a forced reroll mechanism, so to speak, and may cause skill gain to come back much more slowly than one would like it to.
Experience regain, although painful, is relative to the size of the player and how fast they can regain the experience. I don't see too much of a problem in experience lost under the current game plan.
The point I'm making on this is that an eat is a forced reroll mechanism, so to speak, and may cause skill gain to come back much more slowly than one would like it to.
Experience regain, although painful, is relative to the size of the player and how fast they can regain the experience. I don't see too much of a problem in experience lost under the current game plan.
Replying to Topic 'Drakkar Risk'
by the way forgot to add that the classic version of the game I didn't even think as a risk based game, because after awhile, most of the Nork based critters were very easily killed, including the lair crits. There was some risks in the early game, but it was only because everyone was small and not properly armored.
Replying to Topic 'Drakkar Risk'
i have to agree, Skill isnt what it used to be. Well if your solo that is, if you have a party of large players, then things are fine.
Maybe its just me, but the new way of trying to get players to party more, might not have been the hot plan to go with. Maybe if we went back to the old skill system, and put all the lair crits back to the way they were, might be the best course of action.
But I still think some new lairs should be added and the gear required for .... .... should be spread out a little more. This way players have to work more the gear. It might lock down a few more lairs, but then again, it would be harder to set up 2 hunts then 1 hunt. Not only that, but lets say Lair crit A usually has 2 items, and the items get split up, One is a Sword, the other is a helm. Well If pally A just wants the helm, cause he uses a hally, and Pally B wants the sword, well they can each take a different lair if both items are split up. (clear as mud? hehe)
My next thing, I still think that the BIG Special lairs should have some time of reward for all who were there. Before anyone says it. NO I wasnt at megalair. I just think if people were there they should get something. I mean we have little things that say, " I SURVIVED THE FUNHOUSE" WHOOOWHOOOO stop my beating heart. Come on. Dont tell me you cant make some simple little flashy thing for people to yank outta thier lockers and say I WAS AT MEGALAIR and here is my proof.
Ok im through ranting for awhile
Maybe its just me, but the new way of trying to get players to party more, might not have been the hot plan to go with. Maybe if we went back to the old skill system, and put all the lair crits back to the way they were, might be the best course of action.
But I still think some new lairs should be added and the gear required for ....
.... should be spread out a little more. This way players have to work more the gear. It might lock down a few more lairs, but then again, it would be harder to set up 2 hunts then 1 hunt. Not only that, but lets say Lair crit A usually has 2 items, and the items get split up, One is a Sword, the other is a helm. Well If pally A just wants the helm, cause he uses a hally, and Pally B wants the sword, well they can each take a different lair if both items are split up. (clear as mud? hehe)My next thing, I still think that the BIG Special lairs should have some time of reward for all who were there. Before anyone says it. NO I wasnt at megalair. I just think if people were there they should get something. I mean we have little things that say, " I SURVIVED THE FUNHOUSE" WHOOOWHOOOO stop my beating heart. Come on. Dont tell me you cant make some simple little flashy thing for people to yank outta thier lockers and say I WAS AT MEGALAIR and here is my proof
. Ok im through ranting for awhile
Replying to Topic 'Drakkar Risk'
Lots of good points here about risk vs. reward. Nork lairs are unliked now due to the hp losses if you die. It has been said here a thousand times that they "don't like this or that" about nork now, and sysops/developers always come back with "its always been like that". Lair camping in cob is RISKLESS at the moment, so everyone does it. I think it would be good if they would take something from you when you do this. It would possibly free up the lairs, and end the debates and arguments over who's lair it is. I have seen many a crit come into SF(before there was a game-wide chat) screaming that "SOB or HAG took my gear!!" And we now occasionally(OK a little more that that<G>) see "Lori took my gear!!" Granted, many people can now solo Lori or Grraagh or Kaldor, and possibly even Uther, Chipuda, and Breshard. Critsize on DZ is squite phenominal compared to IEN (didn't play before this version). When I started playing 4 years ago, to see a 20/17 crit was a sensation. Now its not a big deal. This should be considered, and, like many posts before mine, risks are acceptable if regain of losses is reasonable.
The bottom line is that the risks/gains to smaller crits just aren't there anymore. By smaller crits, I mean mid-level players(exp20-30 and skill 20-25). As a ment, it takes me much longer to solo skill an area comparable to my lvl/skill, and it should be as rewarding to me as to other players of different classes. I'm not gonna turn this into one of Valarc's "Oh woe is me I'm a weenie ment!" posts, because I love playing my ment, and have long understood its drawbacks for the last 4 years of BEING a ment. My only point will be this. The new skill system is very painful to a psi class. I remember before if I hit something "x" times I got a percent of "x" skill for it. Now, if I hit something "x" times and it runs away I have to chase it down to get ANY skill. In the same area, a stick of equal skill is hitting the crit 2-3X harder and there is FAR less chance of it running. It just isn't rewarding for me to hunt in these areas, especially since the crit that takes me 2-3X longer to kill will yield me the same next-to-nothing skill. Per-kill skill system is very promoting to party hunting, BUT, if you cannot find an appropriate party, then you may as well stay in the lower end areas. A good example of this is that my skill 14 hally f/m gained 19% in two hours of solo skilling in N-6 the other day. The very next day I skilled that same skill 14 hally in cob(yes with a good cob hally), and in a party in pillars in 2 hours I gained 6%. Reason? We killed too slowly for the area(ment, f/m, baby barb, and a mid-level paladin). Does this sound rewarding to you to push yourself to the limits? It certainly does not to me. I enjoy taking risks with my crits, and do constantly go to areas where I have a difficult time with survival, but lots of people don't, because the gain just simply isn't there for them. Not everyone thrives on saying "I did it!" with little or nothing else to show for it. Its enough for me, but everyone is different.
Sorry this post is so poorly written, and I'll probably be back to edit it when I wake up a bit more, but that is my two-cents on risks.
DameShi____ASH
The bottom line is that the risks/gains to smaller crits just aren't there anymore. By smaller crits, I mean mid-level players(exp20-30 and skill 20-25). As a ment, it takes me much longer to solo skill an area comparable to my lvl/skill, and it should be as rewarding to me as to other players of different classes. I'm not gonna turn this into one of Valarc's "Oh woe is me I'm a weenie ment!" posts, because I love playing my ment, and have long understood its drawbacks for the last 4 years of BEING a ment. My only point will be this. The new skill system is very painful to a psi class. I remember before if I hit something "x" times I got a percent of "x" skill for it. Now, if I hit something "x" times and it runs away I have to chase it down to get ANY skill. In the same area, a stick of equal skill is hitting the crit 2-3X harder and there is FAR less chance of it running. It just isn't rewarding for me to hunt in these areas, especially since the crit that takes me 2-3X longer to kill will yield me the same next-to-nothing skill. Per-kill skill system is very promoting to party hunting, BUT, if you cannot find an appropriate party, then you may as well stay in the lower end areas. A good example of this is that my skill 14 hally f/m gained 19% in two hours of solo skilling in N-6 the other day. The very next day I skilled that same skill 14 hally in cob(yes with a good cob hally), and in a party in pillars in 2 hours I gained 6%. Reason? We killed too slowly for the area(ment, f/m, baby barb, and a mid-level paladin). Does this sound rewarding to you to push yourself to the limits? It certainly does not to me. I enjoy taking risks with my crits, and do constantly go to areas where I have a difficult time with survival, but lots of people don't, because the gain just simply isn't there for them. Not everyone thrives on saying "I did it!" with little or nothing else to show for it. Its enough for me, but everyone is different.
I think this would be a good idea. Risk is a good thing. Risks get adrenaline flowing. Risks force you to test your limits. Drak doesn't have enough of this anymore, as people are paying for the HIGH-risk gear. No, I didn't get all of my gear solo, and there are people who DID do this, but I believe that their sense of reward is probably MUCH greater than is mine for doing so.Quoted by RolandBut now that there are ways to repair almost all damage to one's crits, regardless of critsize...maybe Cob lairs and the upcoming scenerio (?) should all be eaters, just so the equivalent risks from the days of Nork are the same for those bigger players. I bet if all the Cob lairs ate, alot of people wouldn't camp in them naked and wait to hear their deathscream to tell them that lair crit is home <g>
Sorry this post is so poorly written, and I'll probably be back to edit it when I wake up a bit more, but that is my two-cents on risks.
DameShi____ASH
DameShi
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"The worst foe lies within the self." - Parasite Eve
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"The worst foe lies within the self." - Parasite Eve
Replying to Topic 'Drakkar Risk'
I thought it WASNT going to be a me-style "woe is me" post <G>.Originally posted by Shi
The new skill system is very painful to a psi class.
So I'm not totally off topic, I agree with what the thread has said. About the ONLY place in the game i see any rewards for taking bigger risks is in the undead city area, where amazing gains are to be had for the daring. I'm about to switch to skilling staff, and am thinking about going to m-2 as my best bet for optimum skill gains... That is ridiculous. I've been playing baby crits and seen HUGE crits running around n-6 because it was their best skill for a secondary, and that's just silly. There is too little risk vs reward in this game IMO.
More than anything... I'd like to make lori somehow detect if someone is camping her, and turn into an eater if she's camped!
Valarc___STORM, usually found in #storm on irc, and in the pillar room in cob
**Excerpt from an actual Lobby chat session**
chance: does valarc eva leave game
Brad: valarc is an NPC
Brad: didnt you know that?
**Excerpt from an actual Lobby chat session**
chance: does valarc eva leave game
Brad: valarc is an NPC
Brad: didnt you know that?
Replying to Topic 'Drakkar Risk'
bah, i think if the game detects someone in a lair for more then 30 minutes, and lair crit isnt there, it should spawn a HIGHLY deadly, monster that gives POOR exp, POOR skill, and crappy armor and have MASS amount of HP, and its an EATER. This way people would Fear camping a lair. Also this would make it to where people will not want to fight it cause its not worth it. Also, if the monster appears, the lair gets locked on the outside, people can leave but no one can enter. This way people checking in wont get killed and people inside have a way of leavin. Last idea to this would be, once this monster is activated, the lair crit time gets reset, and this super monster will disappear 15 minutes after lair is clear. If by some fluke, it was killed, then another one will spawn right after it dies.
If lair camping doesnt stop after that, i dont know what will hehehe
If lair camping doesnt stop after that, i dont know what will hehehe
Replying to Topic 'Drakkar Risk'
Well....
Goto Aleria sometime, if you stand in the Tarak Lair, waiting on his next regen, he won't regen !
Goto Aleria sometime, if you stand in the Tarak Lair, waiting on his next regen, he won't regen !
SirRoland,
Follower of The Old Code
"Call what you need of me. Ask what you will of me. My sword, my service are yours !"
Follower of The Old Code
"Call what you need of me. Ask what you will of me. My sword, my service are yours !"
Replying to Topic 'Drakkar Risk'
maybe that should be done in all lairs. Sounds a bit harsh, but it would help cut down on it.