Potential Thief Fix

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flisk
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Potential Thief Fix

Post by flisk »

I am starting this off on a new thread to get to the technical aspect of this issue.

We are heavily considering making it so that thieves can no longer steal from other players. You will still be able to steal from Non-Player-Characters, but not other Player Characters.

Please do not feel that this is "nerfing" the thief class, as it is not.

What I want to see is a list of reasons why you would WANT to steal from other players.

Convince us that stealing from other players should remain in the game. Also please do not sit here and give us a cop out reason; something like "Well, thieves should be able to steal from other players because they are thieves.". We need good solid examples of why it is a benifit and not a hinderance.

thank you,

Flisk.
Last edited by flisk on Wed Nov 27, 2002 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Watcher »

Originally posted by flisk


I am starting this off on a new thread to get to the technical aspect of this issue.

We are heavily considering making it so that thieves can no longer steal from other players. You will still be able to steal from Non-Player-Characters, but not other Player Characters.

Please do not feel that this is "nerfing" the thief class, as it is not.

What I want to see is a list of reasons why you would WANT to steal from other players.

Convince us that stealing from other players should remain in the game. Also please do not sit here and give us a cop out reason; something like "Well, thieves should be able to steal from other players because they are thieves.". We need good solid examples of why it is a benifit and not a hinderance.

thank you,

Flisk.
I've rolled and played many thieves at varying skill levels and I cannot think of a "GOOD" reason that thieves should steal from Players.

With that said, there are some players that are not thieves, but have reasonably high thief skill. I would think that this non thief ability to steal should be addressed as well.

- Include the discipline of thievery in general; This would eliminate the "twig" issue for one and would not single out a particular class.

- There isn't any instance of the game that requires or necessitates a player to steal from the sack of another player other than roleplaying.


My vote: Do away with player to player stealing from sacks.


SUGGESTION: Since thieves are downtrodden and may feel this is a class nerf, I feel something should be offered to the class.

--- Thieves should be allowed to imbue weapons with poison, adjusted to their level of thief skill. I don't know how powerful skill 30 poison is, but a thief of that level might enjoy having a new ability and forget they can no longer hold captive the threat of stealing gold from their companions. :hoho

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Ambrose
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Post by Ambrose »

"Thieves are downtrodden"? I do not believe anyone ever thought that the thief class was going to be addressed but not crits with thief skill.

As to Flisk's question ... I am assuming that we are looking for 'legitimate' reasons ... not simply the age old reasons for crime.

My thief has stolen from other players for three reasons:
1) to tranfer Halloween candy
2) to help someone move a cob twig between their crits
3) 'clowning around' with a friend/testing

Are these reasons to keep PVP stealing? I guess not ... but my choice would be a different solution.

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Post by Mars »

I certainly wouldn't advertise doing #2.

It's against rules to enter COB by theft. The level requirement is there for a reason, not just for you to find a way around it.

V/R

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Post by Ztinktoof »

I maxxed two characters by stealiing Cob eggs from Hoss's sack. (Sorry to out your omlette addiction Hoss.)

I still have two more characters to max! What will I do if you remove PvP stealing?!?!?!
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Post by Thundar__RELM »

My biggest thief has ever was skill 11 so there may be something I am missing about why a thief would steal from a player would be work arounds of things that were programed in the game. Some of those may not be technically cheating, but they are getting around something that was programmed into the game intentionally. For instance the steal a twig to save tp's I would not consider cheating, but at the same time it was programmed into the game for a reason. Also there was a limitation put into the game on how much candy you can get for a reason. There are of course the numerous ways that are actually cheating such as takeing a small crit to cob and others. There are also some that are only to make things easier that would probably not be considered bad by anyone. The alerian twig issue may even fit in this category as well. Those are really not changed by whether a player can steal or not because if you can not steal you could just sell the item and give the cash to the other player. That is alot more work though the same thing is accomplished.

With those things I would say it would be just as well to take out player stealing, but if any of these are considered important or useful then it would be ok to use someone else's idea and make a steal enable command. That would allow for the things that are intentional and still stop all the problems. Maybe it would help if nothing else to just make stealing from a player against the rules. Rather than just saying it is ok to kill someone if you catch them.

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Last edited by Thundar__RELM on Wed Nov 27, 2002 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Fenris »

How about as the LAST bastion of a sense of danger in the game. This game is so touchy-feel-good now that sometimes I get a little repulsed.

Eaters are now very few and far between. Your chances of being stripped are almost nil except in a lair encounter, character progression is nearly unchecked thanks to the flow of cob coin.

Granted stealing from other players isn't going to solve the above examples, but it is indeed one of the few things left in the game which create an "edgey feel". I know I thoroughly enjoy a thief sighting and the posse mobilizing to try and find the offender.

Just the other day a ground thief stole a king mino raxe and taunted the guy who had dropped it in SF to swap it. He actually had the audacity to offer the axe back for a meg. I had more enjoyment charming that dork and making him drop the axe than anything else I've done in the game in quite awhile.

I guess the community at large may want this style of no risk play. If that's the consensus of the masses then so be it and remove stealing from players as an option. I for one enjoy the small risks still in the game.

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Post by Drewstr »

While we are talking about "thiefing" <G>

I feel that there should be something done about the many floor thiefs... Thief class or not... i know of several cases of things being stolen, lori yps, rada's dropped my sassy. and many other things... can't you do sumtina bout this sysops?
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Post by Watcher »

Originally posted by Fenris


How about as the LAST bastion of a sense of danger in the game. This game is so touchy-feel-good now that sometimes I get a little repulsed.

Eaters are now very few and far between. Your chances of being stripped are almost nil except in a lair encounter, character progression is nearly unchecked thanks to the flow of cob coin.

Granted stealing from other players isn't going to solve the above examples, but it is indeed one of the few things left in the game which create an "edgey feel". I know I thoroughly enjoy a thief sighting and the posse mobilizing to try and find the offender.

Just the other day a ground thief stole a king mino raxe and taunted the guy who had dropped it in SF to swap it. He actually had the audacity to offer the axe back for a meg. I had more enjoyment charming that dork and making him drop the axe than anything else I've done in the game in quite awhile.

I guess the community at large may want this style of no risk play. If that's the consensus of the masses then so be it and remove stealing from players as an option. I for one enjoy the small risks still in the game.

A thief with large enough skill is in absolutely no danger of being caught. I've even been stolen from 'undetected' with level 19 trapsack on. The thief was still poisoned, but the trapsack failed to alert me. Odd, but true.

Once a thief gets to about 18 skill, they are virtually unstoppable from stealing from sacks detected.

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Post by Ambrose »

Mars,

I never said that #2 was to get an undersized crit to Cob ... that is a bit of an assumption. And I think one that was unwarranted. Surely you have a way of checking whether I have ever been to Cob on an undersized crit ... please do so and then do the right thing.

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Post by Drader »

The thief is a unique class of its own. Being that it is able to use spells in which stolen from both the mentalist and healer class, i think is pretty neat. Drakkar as you know, is a game very much similar to an online dungeons and dragons like game. In my own opinion, I think the game should try and become a bit more realistic and the dangers that one would face in a fantasy world. In other online games, it simply is something that happens to people. Thieft should be left in the game for the sake of being able to steal and to add more realism.

I myself really dont go around stealing from every player I meet, I am arguing the point because I like to track down those who do steal from me or others ;)

However, by simply removing it wouldn't be the best solution. Maybe a more creative approach is needed to solve this. Possibly maybe adding a new class like Bounty Hunter to the game. Or maybe penalities of some kind. How about posting some new NPC in the sf that if it catches someone stealing it can throw the crit into jail for 5 minutes or take or do something to the offender. Or maybe, just create police like NPC's that act just like police officers that wonder the town, and make it where other crits can talk to them and it can ask reasonable qeustions and make it able to interagate the thief....hhehehe....maybe more advanced AI might make it intresting? ;)
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Post by Drake »

I don't really have an opinion one way or the other about stealing from players except that removing the ability goes against the argument I have heard so many times about trying to make the game more realistic. There is usually nothing valuable enough in a players sack worth getting caught over.

Floor thieving is the real problem and with the newest implementations of "no strip by players" and "no weapon drop when player kills" there really is nothing to lose. Theoretically you could steal from a multistriking pallys hex until you die, then restore with your illgained loot.(not recommended)

Previous fixes have caused the floor thief problem to proliferate. Fix more? I say no.

Here's an idea. Now that tied gear cant be sold or broke, why not put the weapon drop and player strip back in play to make it so that if a floor thief does get killed they have to come get some key pieces of their gear from the one they were killed by?

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Post by Drader »

I kinda like not being able to be stripped by players. This was a major problem back on IEN when someone died and the healer picked you up to take you to be cc. That sometimes he might accidetnly click search instead of look. This concept of being able to strip other players was also very confusing to me when I first started playing drakkar.

I do however disagree with Drake. If the person has majors, the thief could easily get a bunch of stat increasing pots from their sack. But then again, this is one of the main purposes of the thief. Come to think of it, maybe when they originally made drakkar, the thief was supposed to be like a danger in the game that was controlled by other players?

The REAL problem is Floor Thieves. These people need to be some how stopped.:p
Last edited by Drader on Fri Dec 06, 2002 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Stormwind »

How is stealing pots or coin from a sack any different from stealing loot off the floor?
Are you asking the game ops to "allow" one type of thievery but disallow another? If you wish to allow thievery in the game with respect to other PC's, you have to accept it in all flavors. Currently thieves have the ability to steal from players sacks.. the key issue as always is whether or not they get caught. To my knowledge there is no clear rule in Drakkar (correct me here if i'm wrong sysops) with regard to theft. It is merely "frowned upon". Same goes with stealing gear off the floor. The "rule" is .. anything on the ground is fair game. So if items get snagged, then either you are too slow or the thief is too good. If you want it to stop, eliminate player vs. player theft completely.


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Post by Morgar »

I'd like to see player vs player stealing stopped. Or at least curbed. Yesterday a thief, relatively large, came into the steel flower and proceeded to pick pockets. While I lost only a few K, and a couple zaps, there were several newbies in the room that lost all their coin.

{rant}
Quite honestly I fail to see whats fun about stealing from some player that is many levels and skills below you. You (the thief), can coin far faster than a newbie can. Perhaps stealing from a small player makes you feel bigger in your eyes. But your victems consider your actions vile and petty. I didn't apologize for your actions to the newbie, but I did replace the coin you stole from him. I didn't want him to think we're all a bunch of thieves because of your actions. The fact that stealing from little crits and perhaps chasing them off the game probably doesn't bother you, but it does bother me.

You also stole from me, while I'm not a mega crit, the fact that you managed to swipe a couple zaps and some instant heals from me puts you up there with the bigger crits. So what is the point other than feeding your crippled ego? I would have given you the IH's and zaps had you but asked for them.
{/rant}

Ok, I know there are honerable thieves in the game, some of my friends are thieves. But the ability to steal from players is not only maligning the game, its ruining the rep of a whole class of players.

Player thieves attempting to steal should be detected. No matter what their level. And the attempt to steal should always fail. Now where should I send in the check for $.02? :D

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Post by genesis »

This is an easy one. What is a good reason for thief to steal from players? Just listen to the reasons the thieves give. I know many of you 'just don't get it', but isn't that like many other things? like... 'why would anyone chase a little ball around with a stick', but many people DO enjoy golf. And like... 'why would anyone kill bambi', but it is a valid sport that many people enjoy. Just because YOU (FLISK) do not understand it, or even agree with the reasons does not make them invalid. Now I'm goin' to give a list of reason a thief should be able to steal from players, though I have little faith they will be considered GOOD reasons.

1)The fighter class is neutral, but both the barbarian and the paladin class are enhanced with player interaction. The paladin, in his determination never to slay a fellow crusader and the barbarian, in his disreguard for human life in his rage. The importance of the Healer interaction with players is obvious, and while the mentalist isn't so obvious, the design of the mentalist class was toward Isolation. The greatest discs of the mentalist are most harmfull to a party. The thief is supposed to be a foul class, people should hate them. If the thief cannot steal, play tricks on, or hide (with a purpose) from players, you are preventing the thief player from roleplaying. You may as well remove the penalty from the paladin of accidentally slaying a player, and make sure barbs cannot target a player, and may as well remove the healer class altogether, and make ment area affect spells not harm players. You see? Player interaction is essential to a multi-player role playing game. Even if the ROLE of a class is offensive.


2)It was mentioned that thieves use there talents to 'get around' some of the rules in the game. Sounds like good role playing to me!. Sound just like what a thief would do.
Every class should have an advantage over the other classes. Ments can walk through walls, Healers can control creatures, barbarians have FAR more hits, just to mention a few. Rather than punishing a thief for his ingenuity, design them in! Stealing from players is part of that ingenuity.

3) Agian, don't dismis the Thieves reason for stealing given by the thief players. They are as valid as any other class. Why does a healer want to heal? Why does a paladin want to defend? :

"LAST bastion of a sense of danger" Fenris

"The *option* to make a morally reprehensible decision adds to the illusion of
traveling in a fantasy world" Ztinktoof

"Go ahead make life even more boring!" Longbeard

"So stripping or stealing, even that occasion taboo PK they are part or the games
roots and part of the edge" Kanak
]
"Well our healer carries far too many twigs.and she will not dump them .so as a thief
we do her the favour :P" Nickstar___WoW

A whole list of good reasons.. Zakkath post: 27

Why are you trying to make everyone play 'goodie two shoes'?

My solution is this, if someone wants to play an evil class, they should have to 'watch their back'. Change the rules to 'ALL THIEVES MAY BE KILLED ON SIGHT'. Better role playing.

Genesis
Last edited by genesis on Sun Dec 15, 2002 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by buho »

Why a paladin can not kill evil players only for the reason of them being evil, then? A paladin is not only about not killing mates, its about killing evil (as usually its seen; furthermore in Drakkar paladins see evil and need to be g/g).

If a thief is rolled to do wrong to other players, a pally (who is rolled to do good) need to have a "license to kill on sight" all evil he see (thieves included).

How the things will end I think is pretty foreseeable.

buho.

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Post by Psimon »

I like the "Drakkar Physics," the underlying beauty of the game. A set of physical laws which operate in this land, and are consistent.

I like that things one may work out with players work on npcs as well. When learning to steal, we learn that pouches and belts cannot be stolen from. Do npcs have a pouch? We learn how to target a specific item: #steal bottle from tester "ok, let's go to hag

A fundamental principle of this game is that the physics, abilities, and limits of gameplay are not published in a set of rules. They are waiting for players to test and discover.

I do not like changes which violate the Drakkar physics. They detract from the game, the fundamental beauty of Drakkar.

Creating many rules which attempt to protect players from rude gameplay may have an opposite effect. By coding the "protections," a message of "whatever remaining which is doable is acceptable."

Stealing loot from others kills proliferates. I honestly don't understand the attitude of players who think that coining means finding other peoples loot and taking it.
One chooses a role playing game for whatever reasons: Are you a Wizard? A Paladin? A Barbarian? I don't understand people whose fantasy is to be a maid, begger, or lowlife petty criminal.

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Post by Thundar__RELM »

Genesis,

Your reasons are valid up to a point. That point is only when thieves have a danger too. As is now a high level thief can take something from me, dangle it in front of my face and laught the whole time. I can do nothing to stop him. If I do get lucky and somehow catch him I can kill him and make him lose one con point. All of the danger is faced by the non thief. I agree that to some extent public opinion can deter a thief, but now they just liminv and do it silently so 0 risk to them at all. If like you said the rules are lessoned some that ok I can beat on the thief with a chipper or other stat/hp reducing weapon, cc them at an eater, etc. then they face risk and it is fair again. True we learn how to handle thieves so they can't take anything from you when you get bigger that will hurt you, but a grief thief could still ruin anyones day and there is currently nothing we can do about it.

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Post by flisk »

k, here is the scenario...

Player A has a thief that is lvl 35, skill 30.

Player B has a pally or an MA that is lvl 15, skill 13.

Player A can steal all day long from player B and never be cought. Is this fair?

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Post by Watcher »

Originally posted by flisk


k, here is the scenario...

Player A has a thief that is lvl 35, skill 30.

Player B has a pally or an MA that is lvl 15, skill 13.

Player A can steal all day long from player B and never be cought. Is this fair?


yes it's fair.

However, I doubt if the skill 30 player would waste the time to steal in such a scenario. Thieves are more of a roleplaying class than the others imo. They like to be secretive, unseen and mysterious.

Part of the whole mystique of all of this hoopla of sack stealing is way overblown. Ground stealing occurs way more often. Most of the thieves that are complained about doing the sack stealing are smaller skill thieves.

The advice of killing a thief if it has been caught stealing has gotten a bit out of hand imo. On my other account, another player wasn't convinced about sack stealing, so I told him to let me try and steal from him. I told him in advanced to take all valuables like pots or twigs out of his sack and not to kill me. First thing he does after I steal from him with his permission is to hit my thief. When I told him to stop, he didn't and killed my thief.

Now, this was of course all legal according to the rules to kill my thief, but it shows that there is no honor among some players even when permission is granted to steal from them and they use that rule it's okay to kill a thief if it steal from you.

In other words, ethics is a two edged sword. In can be abused or used properly.

The same with thievery.

If a mentalist fireballs me and turns red according to the rules I can kill the mentalist. I don't have to stop and determine if it was by accident or on purpose. If the player turns red, it's dead. However, common sense says to stop and talk to the mentalist or be experienced enough to know when it's an accident or on purpose.

Taking the proper ethical path in either the case of thievery or killing a 'red' depends on the scenario and the player imo.

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Post by Ravaillac »

I agree with Fenris and Genesis and others who support the roleplaying of thieves.
For a 30 skill thief to steal all day without getting caught by a lower level *IS* fair. Just as it is fair that a healer can charm a lower level. Just as it is fair that a ment can teleport them against their will. Thieves can steal for the same reason that paladins see evil players as Red. It's part of the appeal of drakkar.

LIKE A WHIPPED DOG, THE FRUSTRATION DRAKKAR SOMETIMES INFLICTS ON US (LIKE WHEN WE GET EATEN, GET WHACKED BY UTHER OR CHIPPER, OR WHEN WE ARE ROBBED) MAKES US LOVE THE GAME MORE. PLEASE DONT CHANGE IT.

Removing stealing *IS* a nerf, whether we admit it or not.

I for one do not prefer to live in a world where players have no choice BUT to do the right thing. What good is honor and valor in a world where everyone MUST be honorable and valorous?

I recently got victimized myself. I raised a big hue and cry over it. BUT, I wasn't seeking restitution of the stolen loot. I was seeking to publish the name of the offender. I think that is the way the system should work. Honor to the honorable, ill-repute to those who deserve it.

Most of the thievery in the game occurs in the steel flower in nork, and is the fault of the player stolen from!! It's like counting your CASH while you ride the subway in New York City. If you get mugged, it's due to your own foolish behavior.

I think STEALING should stay, and the change should be made to DETECTING thievery. Thieves should be DETECTED if they steal from a player who is big enough to catch them. The problem now is that as Watcher mentioned, Thieves currently have CARTE BLANCHE. A skill 18 thief should be detected a reasonable proportion of the time by a character who is 18th Experience level. As things stand now, this doesnt happen.

Players should have the choice of whether to steal or not. If they succeed, the spoils should be theirs. However, if they fail, they should face the consequences to their reputations.

KEEP STEAL, BUT EVEN THE PLAYING FIELD BY GIVING PLAYERS A REASONABLE CHANCE TO CATCH THE THIEVES.
Last edited by Ravaillac on Sun Dec 15, 2002 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Darkhand MoY »

I have always enjoyed the challenge of Drakkar as it is. Thieves play an important role as does every class. I have been playing Drak for several years now and have found the thief ability of being able to steal as a huge benefit. example: I had a floor thief stealing my loot and I messaged one of my thiefy friends who in turn went and stole my loot back all because of someone who didn't care that I was yelling at him to quit stealing my loot and figured to just get away with it. as my thief friend proved to him...stealing from the floor wasn't as profitable as he thought it was. I for one wanna see all these goody goody rules stoppped and let people be their crits. It is a RPG game and should be treated as such...let us play and let the challenges stay. If you have all that time to stand in the SF and be stole from, and be so foolish as to have stuff on you in there, it is your fault, not the thiefs. and if you are standing in there all day you are wasting coining and skilling time.
I feel that there should be a small chance put in of a thief failing a steal depending on skill size but a very small one.That woould make it possible for him to fail and anyone to know he is there.
1 final point...when I do go to SF I always keep my sack open and when I see something disappear I move.

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Post by genesis »

Darkhand is right! That is yet ANOTHER great reason to allow player stealing. AND it points out a perfect solution to the FLOOR thief problem!.

Player stealing IS the solution to Floor thieves.

See, I knew an answer would show up even for that problem, with a little patience. We don't need no stinking fixes!


Flisk,

First, you said,
"Player A can steal all day long from player B and never be cought."

Even if you ignore the spelling, this statement is wrong. There are ways to catch a thief besides a big flashing neon sign to point out the obvious. For example like Darkhand, and many others (even the Anti-thief crowd) have pointed out, you can see the items leaving your sack. That is JUST as caught as a message, since the skill 13 pally probably couldn't do much immediate damage to a level 30 thief anyway. I don't know why the huge thieves don't just MUG people, then stand there laughing while the tiny people swing away at them. Just one of many examples.

Second, I think your example is TOTALLY fair. That thief worked many many months to obtain that level, and the rewards that come with it. What would be unfair is to make all that effort in vain, simply because some whiners are too lazy to work toward a solution.

Lastly, I will conceed that a Zero failure rate for thieving is unrealistic, even in a fantasy world. But the fix should not be very dramatic. Maybe a 1% hard failure. But keep in mind that even ONE success will generate complainers at any level. There will always be complainers. Complainers should never be the standard to judge the game play by.

Genesis

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Post by buho »

Originally posted by flisk


k, here is the scenario...

Player A has a thief that is lvl 35, skill 30.

Player B has a pally or an MA that is lvl 15, skill 13.

Player A can steal all day long from player B and never be cought. Is this fair?
Unfair IMHO.

buho.

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