Players like options rather than retro changes

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Skip
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Players like options rather than retro changes

Post by Skip »

Brad posted:

There is a fix to the BDC consort cloak coming up. It has too much AC and is missing its acid protection , and it doesnt have a level limit. Just getting this out now so people dont freak when the change goes in (it will be retroactive).
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Let's see if I have this right.

1. This item has been in the game for over 6 months - maybe even a year.
2. Some thought was given to its properties before it was placed into the game.
3. Took our group a lot of time, deaths, eats, and lost hits to develop a strategy.
4. It's a very long & tough fight to defeat the Lair Baddie that has it.

So, rather than removing something from the game, Why not give the players a choice about what they want to wind up with ? (Similar to the 3 versions of Tarak robe in Aleria) Couldnt there be an NPC that gives you an option of:
A. changing it to less Armor value but more or a certain type of psi protection
B. changing it to negligible Armor value but alot of psi protection or several types
of psi & tiers protection
C. some other nice combination of features
D. does nothing different - leaves it alone, as originally implemented

Just my opinion - but i philosophically oppose the removal of established rewards. The Tweak of the Week series of game changes made me (and alot of others) leave this game back in the '98 to 2000 period, and I'd hate to see it happen again.

Options and Flexibility is what I recommend to deal with oversights &.or lack of testing.


~ Buzz__KAM ~

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Darge
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Re: Players like options rather than retro changes

Post by Darge »

Do you realize how much AC the cloak has? If not for the 5% min hit chance that snuck into NL, one cloak would literally make a lvl 70 geared crit unhittable in BDC forest.

Not to mention it's lack of a level req is a huge oversight.

It's also worth noting, that Brad originally described this cloak as a "proof" item back when the lair first launched. For a "proof" item, Brad's description of the new cloak sounds like it would actually be helpful for groups completing subsequent AA's.
Last edited by Darge on Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

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Teh_Cheat
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Re: Players like options rather than retro changes

Post by Teh_Cheat »

Players also like to exploit items that are an obvious bug for personal gain.

When you can stand in lower Mormar and BDC Forest floor, and become unhittable with a +5 cloak that has no level requirement on it, obviously something is up.

When you use those cloaks to give to your smaller crits to bring them through Mormar easier, obviously something is up.

Just because you enjoyed using an item that had a godly amount of AC, does not warrant blindness to a broken item.


( This is the BDC Leather all over. )

Tirith
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Re: Players like options rather than retro changes

Post by Tirith »

I have to agree with John and Darge...
As for being in 6 months to a year? This was the latest change brad made to the game was AA.. Prior to that the cloak was absolutely useless. A few of us still have some of the old cloaks with ac much less than any other high end robes. The reason it has been in for as long as it has... is because your group was the first to notice it, and did not inform brad of it. So you can not say its been in too long because you refused to communicate with brad concerning an untied, non level req item with better ac than any other robe in the game..

Skip
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Re: Players like options rather than retro changes

Post by Skip »

Uhhhh.... who's to say what is the proper reward from the most difficult party Lair encounter in the game? Best armor value robe in the game for the most difficult encounter - sounds right to me.

And doesnt the guy who put it in the game bear the responsibility for knowing what it is / does ??

If Brad says he gonna make a change - Don't the paying customers deserve an apology for more un-tested content? Especially if this is an item that was specifically changed 6 months ago?

If he wants feedback from players regarding a particular area or encounter -- all he has to do is ask for it, and I'm sure most of the folks in my guild of "old timers" would be glad to provide it. We have already pointed out (thru seperate channels) the problems with Multi-hex Lair Baddies & limitations to Class Abilities - and have not yet received a response.

I'm just a Barbarian who plays 1 account at a time - and I get hit by everything regardless of where I play and what gear I have on, including the cloak thats about to be changed. The posted reply stating or inferring that it makes a player virtually invulnerable - is far too broad of a claim.


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Re: Players like options rather than retro changes

Post by Tirith »

AA was changed in september.. If I am not mistaken your guild was one of the first to defeat it after the change.. It is known if something is wrong, you post about it? When spiders in alt 2 were unhittable.. somebody posted about it, even though they werent specifically asked to test nork. Other things you posted about... Did anyone post saying, AA cloak is untied and has no level requirement and can be given to crits in nork and cob without even having NL access. Oh and btw its the best cloak in the entire game? being untied with no level requirement didnt provoke a forums post? Oh wait... but when its changed, now you speak up.. and if you don't want to post in forums.. you can always email brad.
Ok, here is a question.

Do you think the best reward in the game should be untied with no level requirement? If not, then why didnt you notify Brad concerning it? If yes... how can you justify that?

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Teh_Cheat
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Re: Players like options rather than retro changes

Post by Teh_Cheat »

It's obvious that your guild knew what was up, and wanted to get the most out of it before someone figured out.

Don't act all high and mighty when you get called out.

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Darge
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Re: Players like options rather than retro changes

Post by Darge »

Tirith wrote:AA was changed in september.. If I am not mistaken your guild was one of the first to defeat it after the change.. It is known if something is wrong, you post about it?
They were certainly the first to kill him multiple times since the revamp (and congrats on that), and all that I've seen points to at least a few of the KAM members knowing that the AC was ridiculous. I had apparently tested the wrong robe, so I apologize Buzz, for not raining on your parade earlier and sparing you the need for faux outrage.
Skip wrote:Uhhhh.... who's to say what is the proper reward from the most difficult party Lair encounter in the game? Best armor value robe in the game for the most difficult encounter - sounds right to me.

If he wants feedback from players regarding a particular area or encounter -- all he has to do is ask for it, and I'm sure most of the folks in my guild of "old timers" would be glad to provide it. We have already pointed out (thru seperate channels) the problems with Multi-hex Lair Baddies & limitations to Class Abilities - and have not yet received a response.

I'm just a Barbarian who plays 1 account at a time - and I get hit by everything regardless of where I play and what gear I have on, including the cloak thats about to be changed. The posted reply stating or inferring that it makes a player virtually invulnerable - is far too broad of a claim.


This is where the "wheels fall off the bus" as they say.

-Best armor value robe in the game. Sure, it's also the best armor value item in the game for players; AC values on it being noticeably better than NL pally plate.

-If you find something wrong or "off" with the game, you don't wait for Brad to (or in this case, hope he doesn't) ask. You shoot a well written email off to him that explains the problem, and maybe suggests a way to fix it. Ignoring a problem doesn't get it fixed.

-I'm sure there are differences between my barb and yours, but when mine can stand in M25 at froth with NL plate, AA cloak, and the rest of the usual lvl 75 gear (minus a 3rd robe) and only take hits from the 5% min hit, alarm bells went off for me. How come they didn't for you?

I don't want to call you a liar, even though I probably come off as a jackass to you most of the time as it is, but you don't need to carry on with this when I'm pretty sure you had at least some inkling this robe was "too good to be true", as Pax might say.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

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Drewstr
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Re: Players like options rather than retro changes

Post by Drewstr »

You honestly didn't find it fishy whatsoever that the cloak make crits using it almost invincible?

What about the bugs with thief quirks? Was that a "feature"? Surely not. Anyone who realized it knew instantly it was bugged.

When, in any scenario, has there ever been a piece of gear put in that made characters so godly they were nearly untouchable? The top-end gear in each scenario has never even touched that. It made you harder to kill, but not impossible. The NL armor still allowed you to be hit, just not nearly as often, in the harder areas of NL. Why do you think Brad would put a piece of gear in BDC that made it almost impossible for you to die? Where's the fun in that?

And don't pretend you were keeping the "gear" a secret for the sake of it being difficult to get. You should have emailed Brad, or at least Mars or Omni, on the first inkling to check to make sure it wasn't a bug that it was quite that amazing. Two other guilds have the exact same gear, and you've seen representatives from both saying we agree it needs fixed retroactively.

The gains received by other bugs were rolled back (wasn't all of the "unnamed" thief's exp/skill rolled back to where it was prior to the backstab bug?). All Brad proposed was changing the armor to what it was inteded. You should consider yourself lucky he isn't checking logs and rolling back everyone who abused it.

Congrats, you've managed to lose a lot of my respect over this. I expect this childish crap out of a lot of people, but not you, and not KAM.

Edit: That wasn't meant to be an attack on KAM as a guild, just those individuals who knew this was a bug, and abused it.
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Tirith
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Re: Players like options rather than retro changes

Post by Tirith »

My only request to you Brad, is when you put the level requirement on it.. Make it 70-74.. not 75 :-)

Terrel
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Re: Players like options rather than retro changes

Post by Terrel »

Seems like we're splitting along guild lines on this issue! Shocking ! :lol:

The lack of a level requirement on the cloak is fairly clearly an oversight; no disagreement there. (Guilty!)

I would, in fact, disagree that it is obvious that the AC is clearly an oversight. Brad says it is, so it is, but my disagreement is that this was clear.

My recollection is, in Nork, with top end gear, you don't get hit except by lair crits. (Whether that is still true or not, I'm not sure; but I am sure that that was the case when I was growing my crit.)

In Cob, with top end gear, you don't get hit. (Same caveat as above.)

It was the Nameless Land that was the anomaly, at least from my perspective, and probably Skip's as well, who has also been playing a long long time. Once you had the top end gear, you still got hit in places like deep Mormar, GDH, BDC.

That changed, however, with the AA cloak. (To say one never gets hit in the BDC forest is not accurate. One gets hit much less frequently with the cloak than w/o, no question about it. But it's being portrayed in some of these prior posts as a cloak of invincibility, which it is not.) But to my point above, and Skip's, that doesn't necessarily seem out of line. I suppose it depends on your perspective and what you're used to.

Doubt me if you will, I never thought the AC was other than intended. Seemed in line with my experience in Nork/Pit/Cob. With AA cloak, I get hit more in BDC forest than I got hit with top end Nork/Pit gear growing my crit.

I would point out respectfully that it's not a good habit to imagine you know other people's intent or their thoughts. Had someone posted saying "Terrel knew the AC was too good to be true and didn't do anything about it", they'd be wrong. I don't think that people guessing what Skip was thinking and then posting that on a public forum is the proper way to do things. Disagree on points of fact, disagree on opinions, but telling other people what you think they think isn't good practice.:)

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Teh_Cheat
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Re: Players like options rather than retro changes

Post by Teh_Cheat »

You can't honestly say:
I would, in fact, disagree that it is obvious that the AC is clearly an oversight. Brad says it is, so it is, but my disagreement is that this was clear.
Darge said it perfectly, it's not just the best AC robe in the game, it's the best AC item in the game with it blocking better than a Paladin's NL plate. He sat on m25 at full froth and wasn't touched.

That's an obvious problem.

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Re: Players like options rather than retro changes

Post by Terrel »

Teh_Cheat wrote:You can't honestly say:
I would, in fact, disagree that it is obvious that the AC is clearly an oversight. Brad says it is, so it is, but my disagreement is that this was clear.
Darge said it perfectly, it's not just the best AC robe in the game, it's the best AC item in the game with it blocking better than a Paladin's NL plate. He sat on m25 at full froth and wasn't touched.

That's an obvious problem.
Of course I can honestly say it, and there you go, telling me what's in my head!

If you say it's the best AC item in the game, I'll take that at face value. But I didn't test it against NL pally plate, and since Skip doesn't have a level 70 pally, he didn't either. I tested it against other robes, and not scientifically. I wore it WITH NL armor (not pally, true), in PLACE of a farmer's or Marton robe, and it was clearly better than those, based on a "feel" for how often I was hit with it.

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Teh_Cheat
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Re: Players like options rather than retro changes

Post by Teh_Cheat »

I'm not backing down from what I've stated.

You knew it was broken, and your guild chose not to tell Brad.

End of story. Congratulations.

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Darge
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Re: Players like options rather than retro changes

Post by Darge »

Terrel wrote:That changed, however, with the AA cloak. (To say one never gets hit in the BDC forest is not accurate. One gets hit much less frequently with the cloak than w/o, no question about it. But it's being portrayed in some of these prior posts as a cloak of invincibility, which it is not.) But to my point above, and Skip's, that doesn't necessarily seem out of line. I suppose it depends on your perspective and what you're used to.
My ment is Lvl 72 and geared to that extent, but rather pathetic in other faculties. With just one of the cloaks on at above average condition and his NL plate, he couldn't be touched outside of the random 5% min hit (reference the min hit topic for a bit more detail on that) in BDC. Sk 38 barbarians and paladins couldn't hit him outside of what appeared to be 5% occurrences. Cloak of invinciblity it may not be, relative to infinite to hit, but in terms of what's roaming our hunting grounds, it might as well be.
Terrel wrote: I would point out respectfully that it's not a good habit to imagine you know other people's intent or their thoughts. Had someone posted saying "Terrel knew the AC was too good to be true and didn't do anything about it", they'd be wrong. I don't think that people guessing what Skip was thinking and then posting that on a public forum is the proper way to do things. Disagree on points of fact, disagree on opinions, but telling other people what you think they think isn't good practice.:)
I will admit, it may have been a bit presumptuous of me to say what Skip himself might have been thinking. But my assumption was that guild members would communicate this kind of info among each other to some extent, and as a result, Skip would be aware partially to the degree another of his guild members was.

I haven't been trying to read minds here.
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My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

Terrel
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Re: Players like options rather than retro changes

Post by Terrel »

Teh_Cheat wrote:I'm not backing down from what I've stated.

You knew it was broken, and your guild chose not to tell Brad.

End of story. Congratulations.
Clearly you're correct, John. I retract all of my prior points, simply because there can be no other valid view but yours.

Not "end of story", though. I got the last word!

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Re: Players like options rather than retro changes

Post by Teh_Cheat »

Glad you see it my way. =)

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Re: Players like options rather than retro changes

Post by Terrel »

Last word! :P

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Re: Players like options rather than retro changes

Post by Teh_Cheat »

=)

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Re: Players like options rather than retro changes

Post by Tirith »

Tirith gets last word.. Deal with it. Cry to ur pplz.

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Re: Players like options rather than retro changes

Post by Atom »

LOL, funny stuff ...

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Re: Players like options rather than retro changes

Post by Volcom »

Ignorance is bliss

Skip
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Re: Players like options rather than retro changes

Post by Skip »

I know of at least 1 forum attempt, and 1 direct email attempt by me -- "pre-Brad fix announcement" -- of my & KAM desire to discuss the final BDC encounter.

To date, I have still have not received a reply to my email. I guess our feedback attempts either went on deaf ears, or it may have been one of the reasons that Brad issued his intended fix announcement - I just don't know.

It sounds like some previous posters have disregarded this attempt to feedback. Instead these posters have chosen to believe that we/me have intentionally failed to report information. Uhhh if a tree falls in the forest, did it make a noise?

BTW - who is on the "test committee" that tries things out? (and OK'd the last go round of changes in the fall?)

~Buzz__KAM ~

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Darge
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Re: Players like options rather than retro changes

Post by Darge »

<@icawn> if u didnt notice already..the cloak has more ac than any other item in game lol
<@icawn> so
<@icawn> runts = m25
<@icawn> lol
<@icawn> and you may want to consider tying some to accounts
<@icawn> because brad can change the no level req/untied at any time
<@icawn> and it may not affect a tied one
<@icawn> no one knows about the cloak
<@icawn> you really think brad would leave it untied and massive ac..and a cloak?
<@icawn> just dont talk about it in dz
<@icawn> or do anything to tip brad or sysops off
<@icawn> the cloaks do not stack in ac though
<@icawn> but untied is nice so you can pass em around to runts

But maybe I typed that all up myself, right? So, probably time to move on.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

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Poldarn
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Re: Players like options rather than retro changes

Post by Poldarn »

That's pretty lame (dogging someone's conversations obviously stated "in trust").

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