Players like options rather than retro changes

[Teh_Cheat]

Don't trust anyone.

[Darge]

The ghost of Frozboz™ possessed me for a spell.

Apologies.

[Doro]

What depths can someone sink to in an effort to belittle someone else?

I understand flaming and all that, but there used to be unwritten rules, no longer it seems.

[Elgato]

Pretty well known on the internet. Anything you post anywhere is subject to somebody else reposting it.

[Merlin]

Entertaining.

[Darge]

What depths can someone sink to in an effort to belittle someone else?

I understand flaming and all that, but there used to be unwritten rules, no longer it seems.

I don't know what you consider a "flame", but I've not insulted anyone, and I've tried to be fairly nice in my posts here. Not all of us are as friendly as you, Doro, but these days, I try to restrict my vitriol a good deal. Call me old fashioned, but I'm just a fan of accountability and integrity in this game.

Furthermore, if you think getting caught in a lie is "belittling", fine, but I'm just the messenger.

Time was, guild members were responsible for both their own reputation, as well as the reputation of their guild. If the day comes when you find SIN or I actually exploiting something, I'll take my lashes and ridicule, because I hold myself accountable for my actions and those of my guild. I'll even thank you for setting my guild members or I straight, if you'd like, but I certainly won't say how "low" you are for telling the truth.

[Migam]

I deem this thread pointless and worthy of deletion!

Seriously, many points have been made. Let Brad do his thing taking into account game balance (and imbalances). That is the most important issue.

Uh imho, of course.

Signed,
Grumpy old man chasing kids from lawn with waterhose

[Terrel]

Call me old fashioned, but I'm just a fan of accountability and integrity in this game.

But apparently you're not a fan of ethics and courtesy. If you were worried that Icawn was damaging the integrity of the game, fair enough. Send the text to Brad. You've accomplished your goal. Posting private messages from someone in a public forum goes beyond the pale, as Doro said. It doesn't help to achieve game integrity...that's what the message to Brad does...but it can serve to further one's argument in the forums. (At the expense of one's reputation, I might add.)

Furthermore, if you think getting caught in a lie is "belittling", fine, but I'm just the messenger.

For a smart guy, you really do have some blind spots. I'd like to know what "lie" you caught anyone in. I read through Skip's post, and the only thing that I see that he wrote that appears to be related to your post is "Instead these posters have chosen to believe that we/me have intentionally failed to report information."

So now Skip is a liar, is it? You've taken the reputation of one of the nicest, most selfless folks in the game, and publicly smeared him, without knowing all of the facts. Seems to be a pattern, you making these assumptions.

You quoted from Icawn, not Skip. Unlike SIN, there are actually a # of people who make up KAM, not just 2 folks with an occassional cameo from a 3rd or 4th. (Ok..that was snarky. I cede that point. Feel free to flame me for that, but it does illustrate the point I'm making.) Icawn and Skip are two different people. Skip is not privvy to all of Icawn's thoughts, PM's, and even public chat. If you want to say that Skip was mistaken, fair enough.

because I hold myself accountable for my actions and those of my guild.

Do you now? It's been pointed out to you by more than one person that publicly posting Icawn's pm's is wrong, bordering on unethical. You apologized, although I wonder whether that apology was sincere or in jest. My presumption is the latter, because you didn't edit the post in question. Feel free to disabuse me of that notion.

[Darge]

I could play along with this notion that Skip had absolutely no idea there was something off, but I've not seen a single shred of evidence to make me buy into it. Maybe it's because of that excerpt, maybe it's because I personally witnessed members of your guild (Skip included, I believe) wearing them on both leech crits and killing crits in Mormar, or maybe it's because I still see people (not just KAM, to be fair) wear them around, like nothing ever happened.

You've made your case that some of your guild were unaware, and while I'm not pretending that KAM is a human hive mind, I find it hard to believe the "blissful ignorance" argument based on what amounts to your word alone, considering what I'm aware of. You say I've smeared Skip without knowing all the facts, but all that I've said from the start is that I highly doubt he didn't have an

inkling this robe was "too good to be true"

If my opinion (with credence lended by evidence) is incorrect, then the notion that I've "belittled" anyone falls as flat as it does if my opinion is correct. I posted the log, and mostly let it speak for itself. I didn't open up with a diatribe about how "EVERY ONE OF YOU KNEW EXACTLY THE SAME!"

What do you think me sending off a log to Brad would achieve? If he were to roll your crits back based on said log, would it not be the same as essentially saying "you exploited a bugged item"? If you can think of any reason Brad needs to be involved beyond what he's already posted, let me know- I'm drawing blanks.

As far as the supposed ethics violation, I could make some real life metaphor, but I imagine it'd fall laughably short in being compared to a squabble on a forum. In any case, you and others want to say that not keeping a secret about an action that was itself unethical is in poor taste, I disagree and won't debate that point. If my morals differ from yours, so be it, but I'll not be a slave to some "unwritten code" that looks more favorably upon keeping secrets about bug abuse than not.

SIN and it's members (be it 2 or 20) can live with whatever blow to our reputation this might cause in other's eyes- in ours we did not err.

[Mars]

What was the original comment?

It's gotten so far off topic here, it's hard to remember

[Teh_Cheat]

You quoted from Icawn, not Skip. Unlike SIN, there are actually a # of people who make up KAM, not just 2 folks with an occassional cameo from a 3rd or 4th. (Ok..that was snarky. I cede that point. Feel free to flame me for that, but it does illustrate the point I'm making.) Icawn and Skip are two different people. Skip is not privvy to all of Icawn's thoughts, PM's, and even public chat. If you want to say that Skip was mistaken, fair enough.

It's always been my impression that a guild tag represents a group of people. Skip and Icawn may not be the same person, but they both represent KAM. Just because SIN operates differently from KAM in some aspects, doesn't make your point. If SIN was made up of two people, that doesn't mean we would always have the same ideas. If someone in SIN were to abuse something, I'd expect to have some kind of knowledge about it before hand. That's how our guild works. Maybe your guild doesn't communicate as well as we do.

If you were to see a log of one of SIN's members discussing an abuse of an item while mentioning to not "tip off" Brad and the Sysops, and had seen MANY of our characters geared with that item, would you not assume that we all knew what was going on?

Let's all remember the reason we were so quick to jump on Skip. After abusing the item by growing your smaller characters in Mormar, he assumed the item would become useless when it was changed, and then went on to complain about that fact. The suggestions were fine, the complaints were not.

[Tirith]

This will be the last time I post here as I do not want to fuel the fire.... However... I would like to state that I agree to some degree that cloak may be bugged... At first.. Yes i beleived 100% it was bugged... How bad is it? it depends on how it is being used... Can you die while wearing it? Yes... the minimum hit contributes to this... Without minimum hit a Pally can parry and not be hit one time in mormar... Now they get hit plenty... even while wearing this "bugged" item.. Wearing it on a crit that should not be allowed to wear it.. Under lvl 70 for example.. is definately abusing it... I noticed little difference wearing it on a lvl 75 crit... I would agree if the minimum hit was not in.. and wearing this cloak made you invulnerable 100% to all physical attacks... it would be on the line of sorting out rollbacks. I will agree that it is cheap to wear these on little crits to make them more survivable in mormar.. But it doesn't change that with or without the cloaks. The little crits could still be grown in mormar.

I believe if one person in a guild knows something... surely the rest do... If they don't then that is very poor communication within a guild. Or perhaps one or some of the guild members doesnt trust the other guild members with certain secrets.

I am in favor of the cloak being changed. I would like to see it changed to good AC (not extremely high AC as it is now) and added Acid protect (more than marton robes) would make it a very useful item without making it unbalanced... As to how anybody can disagree to a change like this and be purely in favor of keeping a bugged item bugged completely blows my mind.

Also when will the cloak be changed? When brad announced it would be changed, i was expecting it soon(ish) as it was supposedly "extremely bugged out". I am awaiting the change, would like to see it soon

[icawn]

bump.

amuse me.

[Terrel]

If SIN was made up of two people, that doesn't mean we would always have the same ideas. If someone in SIN were to abuse something, I'd expect to have some kind of knowledge about it before hand. That's how our guild works. Maybe your guild doesn't communicate as well as we do.

I thought my point there was clear, but I'll elaborate. A guild of two communicates much better than a guild of 5, or 10, or 20. By default, if there is communication in a guild of two, the entire guild has just communicated. Now, this is where it gets tough, but stay with me. You see, in a guild larger than 2 people, sometimes not all parties are privy to all communications. The further away you get from the number 2, the more difficult it is to keep all parties informed of all communcations. Not only is there more communication (cause more folks are talking, ya know?), but you have folks playing at different times. You do what you can to keep folks informed of events, happenings, nonsense, etc, but some folks are going to miss it, and many of those folks can't stand reading message boards.

Please let me know if you have any further questions.

[Darge]

Just because John and myself have been the most active members of the guild in recent times, doesn't mean we're a guild of 2. SIN has been larger than KAM likely ever was at points, and more recently, smaller- communication among members about game issues has always been prevalent.

The lack of a level requirement on the cloak is fairly clearly an oversight; no disagreement there. (Guilty!)

mIRC has this thing called a channel topic, maybe you've heard of it. It's not too difficult for me to change the one in our guild chat, how about you?

I'm not going to beat this dead horse any more. Enjoy the game.

[Teh_Cheat]

I never said I didn't understand your point. I said it didn't apply.

Maybe you don't understand my point. Even though Skip and Icawn aren't the same person, they represent the same guild, KAM. That's where the assumptions come in. Just like you assumed SIN is made up of only Darge and myself.

It was wrong of me to assume that Skip was trying to keep the AA Cloak information non-public. You're right, I didn't have all the information. If Skip knew nothing about it, then I apologize for attacking him with those accusations.

I won't apologize for the abuse of the item though. You haven't denied those claims, but it's just sad to see actions like that from a guild that I thought was above cheating.

I assume you'll want the last word, and I'll let you have it. Enjoy the cloaks until their changed.

[Skip]

Sheesh - what a can of worms.... and what about the principles / questions I tried to lay out for discussion when I started this thread:

1. BDC area Encounter & rewards placed into game a year ago. Then reviewed & revised 6 months ago. Now the rewards are gonna be changed (again), but somehow I have the feeling that the problems with the encounter are not gonna be fixxed.

2. At what point is game content going to be tested before dissemmination to the paying customers? Who are the testers that reviewed BDC final encounters back in September, and signed off on the last changes? Will the encounter be changed again 6 months from now? Is this going to be the "norm" for what we can expect for the Silver Dragons Consortium (next segment)?

3. What's wrong with options when an item if going to be changed? I've always been in favor of letting the players have some choices. Increased psionic protections might appeal to many, but physical protections often appeal to me as Barbarian, since I usually get hit alot because I choose to "peel" for my group (forcing baddies to hit back at me rather than other party members).

And if anyone really cares or wants to know - I have 1 paid account & these are my guys, after 14 years:

Buzz Barb 75-38+3 spec hally, 35 mace, 35 MA skill
Skip MA 26-24
Spike Pally 20-18 +2 spec Mace
Skip Ment 20-17, 16 staff

So how about knocking off the class envy & guild backbiting & personal flaming? -- And look at the overriding issues that may bring about a more positive gaming experience for current, returning, and hopefully future players.

If you want to post about a problem, take some responsibility towards its resolution by describing some alternatives that would solve your problem.


~ Buzz__KAM ~

[icawn]

if anyone feels entitled to having the terrible secrets of acidronalcor revealed to them, feel free to pm me on irc or dz and i'll tell you everything there is to know.

i won't spoil it for you all by posting the details here. i'm very busy at this time. many accounts to swipe, coin to dupe, etc..

[Terrel]

It was wrong of me to assume that Skip was trying to keep the AA Cloak information non-public. You're right, I didn't have all the information. If Skip knew nothing about it, then I apologize for attacking him with those accusations.

Thank you very much. That's all I was looking for on that point.

My original point was that despite SIN's initial claims to the contrary, the AA cloak did not shout "clearly there is too much AC on me". Perhaps careful testing reveals that the cloak is overpowered, but casual testing (which I conducted well before this thread started) merely reveals it is quite a bit better than a farmer's robe, which is not out of line in light in view of risk/reward. I believe we've all agreed to that point as well, and Tirith recently reinforced it.

I won't apologize for the abuse of the item though. You haven't denied those claims,

I didn't realize you had abused the item! Kidding! This is where we DO disagree quite vehemently. Far from denying those claims, I was up front in my first post that I knew about the level issue and didn't report it. Darge was kind enough to requote that as a non-sequitur in his last post.

But Darge pointed out an important difference. He said that his "morals differ from" mine. I would agree wholeheartedly. I place a high premium on treating others well. Despite our disagreements in this thread, I've tried to be civil and fair, even when my blood was boiling. THAT is what I value in a guild mate; someone who treats others (regardless of their guild) as they would like to be treated. You apparently don't value that as highly, based on your posts in this thread.

But you do value bug reporting. Not reporting that the cloak did not have a level limit? Unlike you, I'm not mortified by that. You've called it cheating. Well, gee, I guess you could call it that. I think most players who are worth their salt have skirted on the edge (and some have crossed the line with both feet!) of what others might call "cheating". Prior to Brad's endorsement of multiplay lobbies, one might have called using 3rd party software "cheating". A stronger case could be made against all players who have logged on to an account other than their own. All such players are, per the TOS, "cheating". I could probably point to many other examples with a bit more thought. None of those, in my mind, (and I daresay I am not alone in this view) are akin to duping gear, failing to report bugs that result in ungodly exp/skill gains, uber weapons, and uber gear (and no, the AA cloak is not uber gear). You'd get no argument from me that those things need to be reported immediately(and privately, mind you, not publicly.)

So to sum up the last two paragraphs, here is our how our morals differ:

Me: Treating others well > not reporting minor bugs
You: Reporting minor bugs > treating others well

I assume you'll want the last word, and I'll let you have it. Enjoy the cloaks until their changed.

Well, yes, I do want the last word, so long as you continue to post text that I believe is in error or falsely impugns a friend of mine. I'll address it every time.

[Poldarn]

(and no, the AA cloak is not uber gear)

Sorry Terrel, But you're wrong on this one. It's definately uber gear... its not even the primary piece of gear from the lair, but it's easily the best. That AC is ridiculously uber.

just my .02


Zul.

[Elgato]

Question for you Terrell,

And it comes with a big IF leading to the question.

IF gear from the current toughest lair in the game is swappable to other accounts (not involved in the hunt) and is the highest AC for a robe in the game..

Wouldn't it be abusing a bug to swap it to other accounts? Some of the most basic items in nork you can't swap between accounts. Many items in cob you need to see the kill.

Regardless of who knows what, whether you or anybody that you know crossed the line is between you/them and your/thier conscience.

It doesn't appear that you have a conscience since you appear to be advocating "it ain't abusing a bug if nobody knows about it"

Almost sounds like steroid abusers in sports. Deny it until somebody comes along with proof.. then claim "I didn't know what it was"

IMO, anybody who abused it is lucky not to have been rolled back.

However in the history of this game, that hasn't been done. Most often the people who abuse bugs don't get rolled back..

[Elgato]

Me: Treating others well > not reporting minor bugs
You: Reporting minor bugs > treating others well

by the way... this comment is silly... no way shape or form is it a minor bug. That is plainly in evidence that Brad took time out from developing SDC to correct this bug.

It is more like..

You: I will downplay an obvious bug because my friends benefitting from it is greater than the overall balance of the game.

[Cobra]

The only major issue I see with aa cloak is that it doesn't tie. Yes it has high AC, but does it really matter? At this time, by the time you get it, you're over 70, already have NL plate, so what's so bad with a high AC cloak? Yes it makes you unhitable, but how many people actually hunt without a healer in bdc? Only thing it does is make the healers not spam pwh in my opinion.

Having played forever, I remember the no lvl req'ed gear in nork, and it was fine. You went to a lair with your big guy, and got gear for yourself which you could use on alts as well. I believe if you can kill aa, what's the big deal with giving it to your alts to help them along?

This is why I think the cloak should tie, so you can't just pass it along to anybody and everybody.

Cobra

[Tnem]

Don't you just think accusing other people of abusing bugs is hypocritical Darge. In your time we all know you have done this, its the reason you are in the position you are in now. I don't actually see anything wrong with what has been done. If i had the robe i would have probably done exactly the same thing.

Also the pasting of an obviously private convo has lowered you to the likes of Tirith, which really is a new low for you.

Any who, lets all live happily as the robe won't be changed for another ... lets say 6 months ... might as well get what you can out of it while it lasts.

[Darge]

Let me know when you find out of a bug I've abused. I'm quite curious.