Ments-Cob-suck

[Thundar__RELM]

Umm I will take your word for it but you should warn people that there are places in uc-1 that they can't go and expect to live. Even my ma is a one shot and it is much harder to hit and has more hp than that. There are 2 spots where quazs regen. Learn those spots and stay away. You will be hit one shot on most hits from them. Other than that most crits in uc-1 are not going to hurt you if geared right.

Thundar__RELM

[Watcher]

Originally posted by Valarc

Originally posted by Watcher

Originally posted by Valarc


I'd love to see a new scenario (not a lair, or a dungeon ... an entire high level scenario like cob) added where almost every single crit has innate high level energyshield. Something that really makes sticks ineffective, cuts their damage a whole bunch so they take like ten more swings to do anything than a ment. That'd be sweet.

I think they call that UC 4 and 5 <g>.

You may get your wish <g> . Imagine an entire scenario filled the type of crittters you suggested, but with 2-10x as many hitpoints as Cobrahn, because it is mega advanced segment.

Then every class would suck. :>

What fun, what fun.

[Doro]

Ztink,

Another good rundown of descriptive prose thanks.

Healers fair much the same, but lacking the area spells of the Ment are forced to stoop to the ground and pick up twigs from Timmy caves, Ice and Fire are very useful.

One more thing . . .

With the opening of T-2, I suspect that Timmy Secret area is less frequented.

Doro used to hunt there a lot, the regen is constant and predictable with many small to mid level NPCs. Nothing too hard until you go far north where you may get blinded and stunned (not a problem for a healer with prots).

If a circuit can be devised, you may walk 2 hexes, area spell, pick off the runners and walk on another 2 hexes, collecting the NPCs into the zoo (to maintain numbers). If time is not a factor in the equation, you may collect loot as you go around for a second circuit (or ten).


Doro___ASH

[Ztinktoof]

> With the opening of T-2, I suspect that Timmy Secret area is less frequented

Good point. New players should go immediately to Timmy Secret anyway as the MA-type critters are much easier than Timmy Town level caves. It is smaller than the Town level, so can get crowded at times.

[buho]

Secret has been claimed for Buete_RELM.

Players will be NOT welcomed.



buho.

[Ztinktoof]

I took my ment to the Cob surface and to the SW caves. Gear as in the previous post.

Ments suck in Cob. >grin<

Area spells are essentially worthless for notching most things, and espear is more than worthless.

I was anticipating burning things in the SW caves since the salamanders have so much success there. I barely made a dent in the critters there, and I soon discovered the reason. While my firebreath may scratch me for a few hits, a salamander will roast me for over 300 a breath!

So essentially I need to get my skill up to the level of a salamander before my fire is useful in Cob.

On the pl;us side, most things in SW caves cannot see in the dark. So I can stand in there in relative safety and observe things laughing at my pathetic attempts to wound them with spells.

So its Timmy secret or -2 pretty much for a few more skill levels at least unless in a party of decent sticks.

[buho]

Any psi-using going to Cob need to prepare himself for a long long time in Timmy area (Caves, Secret and Timmy-2) with some ocasional run to forest to pay Steve.

buho.

[Aurelius]

*Valarc*

Ments dont -suck- ......just have to be a little more patient<g> remember the boost lvls are starting at skill 25.

and as for espear not doing good dmg....well thats plain wrong. just have to have the right skill <g>

im sure BJ would aggree:p

anyways....ments can solo many cob lairs. to name 2 ( kaldor and graagh) are killed rather fast by a ment that knows what hes doing.

and if the ment has a big barb Baiting...well...there are many more options.

Aurelius

[Tranquil]

theres too many variables to just say ments "suck". their not the masters of damage. Their not supposed to be. In the end (currently 50/30), ide think all classes are just as powerful.

People act like ments are only supposed to do damage..ments can do TONNES of neat stuff.

[Valarc]

Originally posted by Aurelius


*Valarc*

Ments dont -suck- ......just have to be a little more patient<g> remember the boost lvls are starting at skill 25.

and as for espear not doing good dmg....well thats plain wrong. just have to have the right skill <g>

im sure BJ would aggree:p

anyways....ments can solo many cob lairs. to name 2 ( kaldor and graagh) are killed rather fast by a ment that knows what hes doing.

and if the ment has a big barb Baiting...well...there are many more options.

Aurelius

Yeah I realize fire boost will help alot, I'm about 3 days away from it

As far as air boost goes, IMHO it brings espear damage up to what it should have been long before that point, and as far as BJ agreeing, well his skill is no longer attainable on the new system (absense of scrolls and books) so he has a few boosts no player will ever see till Brad changes the skill cap. Besides, at your skill is name dropping BJ really neccesary?

I'm starting to get to the "suck less" portion of the ment skills, and anticipate skill 30 by christmas or at most a month or two later... but seemingly unlike others I remember how much being a ment sucked pretty much from skill 1 through skill 20ish. Perhaps thats because ive advanced so fast the last few months <G>.

At the high end, I believe ments are pretty well set, but I haven't forgotten the little people or what I went through to get to this point, and I don't mind if it's easier for those who come after me. In the medium skill levels of a ment, I believe the class needs serious work.

[Kanak]

If you reread the thread, it should be titled Little ments suck in Cob or mid sized ments that haven't yet developed stratigy suck in Cob.

The real problem is that in the new DZ system players feel compelled to push their little pisonic (kicking and screaming) thru the portal, the second it hits exp level 18. At this point they either don't have the tools or have not yet played the class long enough for stratigic advantage. If you play a ment or healer like a stick you will usually get the short end.

The problem starts back in Nork and Aleria. Aleria is a beutiful segment and should hold a player until they are skill 18ish but its too small with over 1/3 of the turf dedicated to specific quests. Nork was never rebalanced and has a huge number of areas that no one plays because they are useless. ENork for example holds N6/7 crits that may IH 4 times but offer less skill and loot than thier 2 shot counter parts. Who in thier right mind would play Homlet? It offers nothing (limited exp/ low coin /terible skill).

Little pisonics don't need more kick for Cob, they just need something exciting and profitable to do on the other side of the hill.

Playing a 18/14 ment in Cob is a lot like playing him on N5 at level 1 while he gorges on black vials. If you have killer equipment it can certainly be done, but its kicks and thrills and not part of the normal developement cycle.

[Valarc]

Originally posted by Tranquil


theres too many variables to just say ments "suck". their not the masters of damage. Their not supposed to be. In the end (currently 50/30), ide think all classes are just as powerful.

People act like ments are only supposed to do damage..ments can do TONNES of neat stuff.

I've said it once and I'll say it again ten times in this post if people keep making statements like yours, I'm not asking for ments to do TONNES of damage, im asking for ments to do a REASONABLE amount of damage. In nork, our damage is somewhat in line with that of sticks, its on the same order of magnitude and we can hurt things pretty decent. Barring the very high-end, in the gear-dependant cob, ments' damage is SEVERELY behind that of sticks.

I had to spell it out to lalasushi, I'll spell it out to you too...

I DO NOT WANT TO BE THE MASTER OF DAMAGE

I want for ments at the medium level, playing in cob, to have their damage levels boosted appropriately to the boosts obtained by a stick wielding a forged weapon. The damage gap between nork and cob is HUGE for a stick, but not all that impressive for a ment. The title of this thread is ments suck in cob. I'm not complaining about nork, I feel nork is fairly well balanced, but cob is NOT. Sticks get a gigantic jump in damage but when it comes to to ments, we get an extra 6 skill levels of a disc whose damage is based on a hard number per skill level. Think about that for a minute. Espear does X damage per skill, so essentially what a lori staff does is add a skill 6 ment's damage to the mix. Anyone can tell you that a skill 6 ment's damage in cob is essentially not even noticed. (PURELY speaking about damage while espearing here, dont start putting words into my mouth).

People insist on continuing to respond saying ments want to be masters of damage, and I will continue to correct them. I, and many like me, are not asking to be super hard hitters, we are asking for damage in cob to be reasonable at the mid levels. REASONABLE, not fantastic. I'll repeat it a million times if I have to before you people stop putting words into my mouth. REASONABLE, BALANCED, NOTICEABLE damage levels. Nothing more. I'm not asking to hit for 3000 with espear, but I'd like it to hit at least enough that a few espears can scratch a scaler in keep. Here's a few numbers from testing I'm doing right now in pillar room in cob...

Skill 24+6 ment using espear - three shots to notch a mace npc, 16+2 LS pally one shot double notch, skill 23+3 GS pally, 1/4-1/2 damage in one shot.

2 elance to notch a club giant, 23+3 GS pally 8-9 hits to kill giant. Recall here that 2 elance takes me down to about 100 eps and I have to wait 3-4 rounds to regen enough ep to elance again, and after that it's more like 6-7 rounds to lance again. Zaps make it easier but at 4-5 zaps per giant and a max of 15 zaps in sack (need ih after all), that's a hunt for zaps every three giants.

Back to the mace guys, a stick EIGHT skills lower than me, using one of the medium-hitters damage-wise as far as weapons go, is hitting SIX times as hard as me. This isn't a minor discrepancy, it's a huge game imbalance. If I hit twice as much as I currently do, sticks would still be outhitting the crap out of me when way lower in skill, and I'd be a heck of a lot happier with espear damage. You could DOUBLE my espear damage in cob and I would still be outhit by sticks many skills lower than me. A doubled espear damage in cob would do a whole heck of a lot to quiet people like me who think ments suck in cob, and still leave us outdamaged by sticks many skills lower. Yeah, I'm really asking to be a super hitter.

[Elessar]

Part of the difference in opinions here I'd have to chalk up to play style. Players who spend all of their play time in skill partys are going to focus purely on target discs and discount the power of area discs, since they cant be properly utilized in a party. Players who play solo are going to see the value of an area disc that hits everything around them in one round, like firebreath, icebreath and shockwave, and does massive combined damage, allowing them to get more kills with targetted discs in a shorter time frame.

[Saruman]

but solo skilling isnt very good....in dz so that doesnt really matter about AoE discs and there effectiveness solo.

its all about the party now and ments are having to use single attack discs...which do crap damage in cob from skills 15-20+?

[Valarc]

Originally posted by Elessar


Part of the difference in opinions here I'd have to chalk up to play style. Players who spend all of their play time in skill partys are going to focus purely on target discs and discount the power of area discs, since they cant be properly utilized in a party. Players who play solo are going to see the value of an area disc that hits everything around them in one round, like firebreath, icebreath and shockwave, and does massive combined damage, allowing them to get more kills with targetted discs in a shorter time frame.

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, the new skill system on DZ favors the skill party so completely that I'd never skill solo, it's just not efficient. The area disc was a lot more useful on IEN IMHO. On DZ, the primary use I've seen for area discs is the building of fury barbs fast. Exp levels mean very little to a ment, but to a barb they are golden. It's funny, someone earlier in this thread kept insisting that ments' primary role was as a support crit... I guess that's really true, cause we are great for getting friends' barbs big fast <G>.

[Kanak]

Originally posted by Elessar

Players who spend all of their play time in skill partys are going to focus purely on target discs and discount the power of area discs, since they cant be properly utilized in a party. ...

But isn't that the focus of the DZ skill/party system?
You do what you can, try to stay alive and soak up the gains of the combined force. Being able to say I did it myself just isn't part of todays Drak.

Valarc's Espear point does bear consideration however. <grumble>
Even given all the useful pisonic things a mid ment can do, espaer hits lite. And the answer is not more gizmos to hang aroud your neck but a little kicker to the multiplier. But then what do we do for the healer who has no mid level targeted attack :hoho

The attack is excellet
You hit with feeble damage

[dman]

mid sized ments that haven't yet developed stratigy suck in Cob.

I am that very kind of ment your were talking about, 18/14. And I do have a strategy. The same one that has gotten me this far with weaker hit. It's stick and move. (Float like a butterfly, sting like .... a butterfly?) :sarc I use area disc to knock them down and then espear or sometimes I'm lucky and I can emiss them.

I'm not complaining it works well solo, I die a few times but that's part of the game. I was hunting with a couple of sticks the other day, and I was doing my thing stick and move, stick and move (floating along hit crits with my butterfly wings :sarc ). When one of the sticks says to me Sub be still try to stay on the same hex. Well I die three times before I could do any damage to a single crit. Couldn't use area disc then, and I paid for it.

Nomally even when partying I try to stay 3 hex away from a stick if going to use something like Firebreath, or Icebreath and then get close to stick if it's not working or having little effect, so the stick can kill.

I guess my lesson in all of this is to stick (no pun intended) my strategy although it's hard if the party is big or you're in tight quarters.

So you see some of us do have a strategy. (I still suck in Cob though)

[Drdrunk]

Originally posted by Kanak
But then what do we do for the healer who has no mid level targeted attack :hoho

i gave up on that crusade, it seems to be a lost cause. and before someone replys saying psicrush, that's not mid level, even earthcrush comes before it.

[Morgar]

The use of area effect spells have become something of an enigma for many ments. With a pair of 8/8 rings, gd scales, 2 yellows (the +4 kind), at 19/19 I can go to t-2 and use area effect spells to quickly coin. T-2 is giving me roughly a quarter of a percent, paid skill per hour, but for me, its great coin with minimal risk.

At lower skill levels I'd area effect, then pick off a few crits by espear, then repeat the process for skill.

I've been saying all along that the psi casters have been coming over to cob too early. An 18/14 or 18/15 is hard pressed to survive in even the simplest of areas in cob. But we're all to blame for people rushing to cob, we talk about the great coin, the great experience and skill, and rarely does someone brag about taking 2 zaps and 20+ espears to kill a mace user in timmy caves.

"Oh Cob is great! I get killed there all the time! What fun!"

bah...

My wife has a healer, just a few days ago she reached 19/17. For the first time she has a spell that in cob, comes close to the level of damage being done by my espear. PSICrush. But I also know it would be fairly useless if it weren't for her lori staff.

The psi casters are seriously underpowered in cob and yet everyone talks about how great the power boosters are, or how effective elance is. The simple fact is, newbies to cob don't have those wonderful abilities and won't for a long long time.

I went to cob at 18/15, was humiliated and shamed by my performance in timmy caves, returned to Nork to grunt in -6 for another skill level before returning to cob again. It wasn't much of an improvement at 18/16, but the lure of the coin, and with the help of the twigs on the ground, I managed to develop a working strategy for survival in timmy caves. What causes me to marvel is people fail to make any connection between those twigs and the ment skill level.

Four twigs drop in timmy caves. Fireball at skill 25, Icestorm at skill 25 and skill 20 and critcure at skill 20. These twigs are marginal, you won't one shot the crits using them. In fact in some cases you'll use the twigs until they crumble and still not kill some of the crits in timmy caves. How can anyone think a cob newbie psi caster is going to be that effective when they are, on average, 10 or more skill levels below the floor littered twigs? It boogles the mind, but more importantly, it gives a vital clue to the newbie cob psi caster, if they recognize it.

For the past several days, this thread has developed and its been a waging war between the sticks and ments. At 19/19, nearly skill 20, and yet I stand in awe of people like Valarc. His ment is truly awesome, what I hope someday, mine will be. He's capable of doing damage in pillars that I can only dream of at this point. But even he recognizes that this wasn't always the case.

I feel sorry for the ments coming to cob for the first time. They are given a dose of humility and frustration because they are too big to skill well in nork, and far to small to do much of anything in cob.

Morgar

[Aurelius]

* Valarc*

if you think lori staff really adds *6 skill lvls* well...u dreaming <g> its a myth.

dmg with lori and then compared to only holding chip aint much different.

anyways....
skill 24 ments espeaar plain and simple sux..but with the first air boost it will get much better.

skill 24 elance is not much different from skill 30 elance. elance is Not affected by air boost. ( unfortunately)

But..its not the single disc that makes the ment a killing machine<g> its the combo of discs.

think of yourself as Lori use Haste,Invis,elance,shockwave and elance together.

and whoever said..ments cant take dmg or stand in a zoo of giants is wrong. at certain lvl you wont have any probs having a few spear giants on ya and will kill them with hasted fire much faster then a ms pally will.

( of course..this requires u to get some good gear first )

same goes for UD5 , some claim psi users suck there..well...solo they do..but with a big barb along..they rock down there. elance takes these crts down really fast. espeacially blackbelts<g>

anyways....
ments are a good class to play...takes some patience but the rewards are good.

and remember..u be able to get your dp much faster then those pallys or barbs<g> just tp back hahah

Aurelius

[Morgar]

Originally posted by Aurelius


if you think lori staff really adds *6 skill lvls* well...u dreaming <g> its a myth.

dmg with lori and then compared to only holding chip aint much different.

Sorry, but I beg to differ. Alaina, a skill 25 Ment can FF a silver dragon, without a lori staff. Morgar, a 19/19 ment with a lori staff can also FF a silver dragon. Alaina was unable to FF a silver dragon at skill 24. We tried this only a month or so ago.

Perhaps the lori becomes less useful as you approach the skill 30 cap. I don't know. But I do know that 19 + 6 equals 25. Hence my SD is thanks to the lori. Perhaps the Lori doesn't extend beyond the skill 30 cap, so as you approach it, its adds become less and less useful... and less and less apparent.

Unfortunately I do not own a chipper, so I can't compare it to that.

Morgar

[Rosey]

Morgar, maybe Alainas staff is broken because at skill 24 I can ff a SD.

Rosey

[dman]

Four twigs drop in timmy caves. Fireball at skill 25, Icestorm at skill 25 and skill 20 and critcure at skill 20. These twigs are marginal, you won't one shot the crits using them. In fact in some cases you'll use the twigs until they crumble and still not kill some of the crits in timmy caves. How can anyone think a cob newbie psi caster is going to be that effective when they are, on average, 10 or more skill levels below the floor littered twigs? It boogles the mind, but more importantly, it gives a vital clue to the newbie cob psi caster, if they recognize it.

I use the twigs on the ground all the time, and it works pretty good for me. I actually do pretty well in Cob solo (have to run a lot and sometimes twig out, but it's worth the coin). I die more with help than I do alone. This is due to concern for fellow hunters. It seems I have developed my strategy for solo hunting and have not figured out how to work it with others yet. All I know is as long as I move and hit with area disc then espear I don't do that bad. In a party evryone moves limiting my ability to area spell and move without hitting fellow hunters.

Morgar is someone whose posts in these forums have helped me a great deal in my ment's development, and I may have to reconsider my Cob move if he indeed thinks I should be in n-6 working on another 2 lvls of skill before even considering Cob.

[Valarc]

Originally posted by Aurelius


* Valarc*

if you think lori staff really adds *6 skill lvls* well...u dreaming <g> its a myth.

dmg with lori and then compared to only holding chip aint much different.

I beg to differ. As others have said, lori staff definately adds more skill levels than chip. A good way to compare this is with findfriendly and transmute, both of which I've done. A skill 19 ment can make an FF SD using lori staff, while a skill 24 still makes an RD with no staff. 19+6 = 25 last time I checked. Like I said, lori staff adding six skill levels adds the damage of a skill 6 espear, which, due to the pitiful (pre-air-boost) damage of espear, is negligable. I don't have air boost yet to test, but I'm willing to bet that the lori staff bonus is taken into effect AFTER the skill doubling of the boost, making the extra damage from the staff seem even less noticeable to you.

As far as the rest of your argument, which I've trimmed to save space, concerning the high end of a ment, I'm not arguing that. I've said it many times that I think ments are decent on the high end. It's the smaller skill levels that I think need work. You've said nothing to refute my statement about those skills, you merely gave reasons why the high end is good. Well, you gained the high end on the old skill system, where scrolls and books (easily hunted solo, taking advantage of area discs) were the preferred method of psi skilling. I've gone from skill 16 to skill 24 on the NEW skill system where skilling in parties is the preferred method and solo attacks matter a lot more. From that experience, I can say I belive medium level ments on DZ do in fact suck and that the class needs modification at these levels.

[Rone]

Originally posted by Rosey


Morgar, maybe Alainas staff is broken because at skill 24 I can ff a SD.

Rosey

With or without Lori staff? Shouldn't be able to without it if skill 24. At skill 18+lori=rd, 19+lori=SD, 24=RD, and 25=SD. This shows that Lori staff REALLY adds 6 skill btw to previous post.