Ments-Cob-suck

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RayonMazter
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Ments-Cob-suck

Post by RayonMazter »

Why is it, i get to cob a day before a pally, and the day the pally gets to cob they hunt upper keep and actualy survive and are 100x more useful then a ment? cuz ments suck, i was told they sucked by quite a few people, i dint believe em, so i kept grunting for cob, i get to cob...ments suck, and thieves and pallies, w/e are way ahead of me even at a lower skill/level, i think maybe something should b done....whether a lori becomes +15skill or what...but this blows

Ray

King
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Post by King »

Just stick it out and TRUST ME i can tell you right now this pally isnt surviving to well in Upper UNLESS he has some big friends that giving him lots of good gear...but then it is even hard to just survive. When you get ur ment big you will learn to realize a ment doesnt suck and can be VERY helpfull and a killing machine

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Post by RayonMazter »

If ments can pease give their input, ments in cob lol....thx

Braindead
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Post by Braindead »

Well, I don't play a ment, but maybe you shouldn't be complaining? I mean, you have been there for a day. What do you honestly expect? Do you expect that the current hardest segment in the game would be a piece of cake for you? Do you want to go to one of the harder places in the game with a character who just reached the minimums to enter Cobrahn? Maybe you should just enjoy being in a new place for your character. Just about all of Cob is nicer gear and loot wise than Nork or Aleria. You don't have to get so frustrated from it, it is just a game. But if playing a ment bothers you so much, there is a great variety of other types of characters to play.

Rhonen
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Post by Rhonen »

Your right in the fact that initially in Cob Ment's are rather poor. However, once they get some decent gear and a few skill levels they are very good in my opinion. When I got to Cob with my Ment I was 18/15 I think. I seldom played and I had very rotten gear for my level. The STORM Guild took me under their wing (Thanks Drae!) and showed me Cob through the eyes of an experienced player. It's never been the same for me since.

For the longest time I thought my Ment was totally worthless in Cob due to the fact he could not hit anything very hard and even had a very hard time in the Timmy caves. But I stuck to it. Now my Ment is 19(Could rest to 20)/18. I'm one skill level from Teleport and I can't hardly wait. I'm begining to feal as though my Ment actually has a place in the Guild instead of something collecting dust.

Bigger Ments than I have told me to stick it out and it will pay off in the long run. I now give the same advice to you. Stick with it. If your not in a Guild, get in one. They will help you out in ways you'll not beleive.

Being a Mentalist is a major thrill for me now when I'm on line. Ment's are extreamly diversafied and well rounded. However I still think that energy missile should REALLY be upgraded while in Cob. 8)

Ment's have a place in Drakkar as do all classes. No single class is better than another for each has it's strengths and weakness'. You have to play your Ment to his strengths and take your time with him until he has a chance to grow into the powerhouse he will eventually become.

I hope this has helped you out and perhaps some Ments bigger than myself will respond as well to give you more input.

Take care.

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Ztinktoof
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Post by Ztinktoof »

An 18/15 pally, without major gear, may survive in Upper, but not for long. WITH major gear, he can at least stand around and watch others actually kill something. If someone tells you otherwise, they are being creative with the truth.

But you are right, mentalists do suck when they first get to Cob. But should still be welcomed in parties because of transmute, absorption and energy shield. As you get bigger and move to the surface caves, infravision is a welcomed spell by other players.

The only place where your directed spells are effective, for quite sometime, is Undead City -1. But you will need some psi-cut and psi-protect gear to get started there.

In the Timmy areas, maybe about 1/3rd of the critters can be dropped "easily" with espear. The best area spell for whittling down the tougher critters is icebreath. Sadly, Timmy caves puts a huge strain on your EP regen. They really, really, really should make mentalist directed spells more effective in Timmy caves.

Consider hunting the Timmy "secret" area instead of the town level caves as the MA-type critters are a bit easier to deal with there.

Ask for help getting Guntver gear: a skill boosting staff and EP regen robe. This should hold you until a lori staff and robe.

You MUST learn to party and make friends.

Finally, learn the ACIDBREATH spell and return to Nork when you need a confidence booster. That spell is excellent in Nork, and will let you solo a variety of lairs and annihilate dungeons down to N-6.
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Valarc
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Post by Valarc »

Yes, ments suck in cob. At skill 24, I finally find myself able to do significant damage. Still not nearly the damage (or ease of use) of a maxstriking pally wielding a forged, but I am able to hurt things fairly well. The best possible example I can give for why ments suck in ob is energylance. Elance is a skill obtained at skill 24, which costs 250 eps. This 250 ep disc, when used at skill 24 with a lori staff , takes on average two shots to notch a keep giant. Considering an average psi user at 24th level, you're talking about around 550-600 eps. So, considering the high end of the ep scale, 600 eps, a ment is able to get off two elances before having to wait for ep regen. This leaves him with 100 ep, with 150 to regen before using his decent damage attack again. There are two options at this point, wait about three rounds for the ep to regen, or drink a zap. It's not uncommon that I will go thru 3-4 zaps in the process of killing one giant. Figuring 3 zaps per giant and a half sackful of zaps (need room for IH if solo), I can kill 5 giants before having to go gather more eggs. In the meantime a similarly skilled pally has used maxstrike to kill as many if not more giants, while not having to search for zaps every few minutes.

Energyspear is a joke... its' damage is pathetic in cob and it ages significantly more than any regular stick's attack (which, by the way, outdamages similarly skilled espear SIGNIFICANTLY).

IMHO there should be a quest or item that gives a cob-only boost to ments' damage discs across the board based on a percentage. This would help re-center the HUGE gap between ment and stick damage in cob that is brought about by cob's insane dependance on gear. Lori staff is not enough IMHO, 6 skill levels is a flat across the board that adds a set amount of damage (in the case of espear anyway, lance is weird). For example, lets say I do 100 damage, and have an item that adds 25 to my damage. That's a pretty significant addition. Now, I get bigger and all of a sudden do 500 damage. Suddenly adding another 25 is pretty useless. If, however, the item adds 25 PERCENT to my damage, the increase remains useful as I get bigger. At 500 damage, I'm doing an extra 125 points of damage.

When a stick gets a forged hally, it's not a storebought hally + X points of damage no matter what skill. That, however, is exactly what lori staff does. This is a situation I think should be changed.
Last edited by Valarc on Mon Oct 14, 2002 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ztinktoof
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Post by Ztinktoof »

Some additional ideas gleaned by asking some big cob ments for advice...

The SW caves, the second most popular place for grubbing, BTW, seems to have very burnable critters. Any new player should be able to get or obtain assitance with BD scales, a couple of yellow robes and a pFire bracelet.

A little hunting around Timmy caves should get you those nice Cob pStun rings. I used them all the time when I first got to Cob and they are not too difficult to find.

You are all set to have a run at the SW caves. Launch some fireballs or firebreaths, then enmiss/espear to finish 'em off.

KILL THE AXEMEN ON SIGHT!!!

I am also told the walled rooms area under Juntes (climb down in swamp west of juntes tent) is also somewhat ment-firendly with burnable critters. Mostly DarkOgre archers and some undead there, but don't wander too close to the caves south of the rooms.

I'll give it a try with my ment, but if you can get some small sticks with good fire protection, you might want to give it a try too.
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buho
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Post by buho »

Beware stun in haunted (under Juntes) area. Very very bad.

Check a map of the area. As Ztink said, for no reason go nearby the south section. Youll be sumarilly stunned, killed and stripped.

And I disagree with Ztink on SW caves: alone without psi-cutters you are dead meat there. Get some psi-cutters first or put a party with a couple of sticks able to survive and kill the lightning skels and espear guys. And keep PS running all time.

buho.

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Morgar
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Post by Morgar »

LOL! Love the topic title. Yeah, my 19/19 (nearly skill 20) ment truly sucks in cob. So much so that when I brought him over at skill 15, I returned to nork and grunted in n-6 for another skill level.

A ment will never have anything even remotely resembling the kill ratio of the same skill level fighter class. For some reason we ments are punished for being different enough to choose a class other than a barb or pally.

I'm not sure what I can say to make you feel better. Will you get better? Eventually, but not today. The random regen has made it extremely difficult to help outfit people. At skill 19, four levels higher than yours, I am only now starting to feel like I'm somewhat useful. And that is still very marginal.

I have to agree with valarc, espear, the most damaging single crit spell we have until elance, is far too aging compared to the regular attack of a pally or barb. But I also believe nothing will ever be done to address this problem, so complaining about it is a waste of time.

I'd suggest checking out the section on Cob in my ment guide which you can reach from the url in my sig file. It contains several survival tips for the newbie ment in cob. Be prepared to be a leech. A large bulk of your skill will come from the work of party mates unless you get a few friends that don't mind your extensive use of area effect spells.

Morgar

ps. Welcome to cob :D
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Post by lalasushi »

what you must realize valarc, is ments arent sticks, they arent built to tank things, get used to being a support crit or make a stick is my advice..... when im skill 24, my dmg from JS will be nowhere near ur elance, im not complaining :) im waiting for the big tamalies hehe

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Morgar
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Post by Morgar »

Originally posted by lalasushi


what you must realize valarc, is ments arent sticks, they arent built to tank things, get used to being a support crit or make a stick is my advice..... when im skill 24, my dmg from JS will be nowhere near ur elance, im not complaining :) im waiting for the big tamalies hehe
I don't think any ment would contest the statement that we're not sticks. But it begs to be pointed out that our kill ratios are far lower than sticks of our own size. Should they be equal? Probably not, but they should be closer together than they currently are.

In a game where skill is everything, and kill equals skill, it seems unfair to me that ments are stuck with the likes of espear to even attempt coming close to a regular sticks damage. In pillars I can take upwards of 10-15 shots of espear to kill some crits. And even at skill 19, I do no damage to those mace npcs. I've not sat down and figured out the precise numbers, but I'd bet I'm currently seeing a kill ratio of 8 or 9 to 1. For every crit I successfully take down, the sticks in the party take down 8 or 9. Mind you, with the lori staff I'm casting at the power of skill 25, not skill 19.

I can assure you, if your MA's punch aged you as much as our espear ages us, you'd be screaming as well. Enmiss, which barely ages at all, has as much effect on the cob crits as kissing them.

Elance is one of those truly awesome spells that people want, and yet when they get it, find the cost of far too high to use frequently. I've seen plenty of elance capable ments relying on espear when they could be using elance and can only conclude that for whatever reason, the cost of using the spell makes it unwanted at that time.

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Post by Tranquil »

WELL,

Everyone sais, that sticks deal SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much more damage then ments. No lies there, thats completely obvious. However.. There are a TON of variables that can be brought into this arguement. If i was going to mention all of them this post woud shut down the server :p j/k.

For one thing, ments can MT, haste, a ton of prots, FF, go EVERYwhere VERY quickly, extremely wanted on hunts, can deplete, ect. Sticks deal tonnes more dmg (IN COB) then ments do. But wheres the sticks MTs, haste, FF, prots.. ect. Sticks get NO spells. in cob, zaps are a peice of cake to find. Sure, elance owns nork. Elance hits haaaaard in nork. But the problem is.. you cant grow in nork, other then km4-5. Ments _do_ hit like fluff balls, and even at elance arnt the best in the world. But sometimes people act like all ments can do is attack. IMO, ments should be focused more on prots and spells, then dealing damage. I think thats how brad wanted it.

I bet if ments that had every ment spell in game became sticks, they would reeeeeeeally miss being able to cast a tonne of usefull things on themselfs. I think the best thing for a ment would be to just plainly boost Espear damage, and reduce elance cost. Maybe even reduce the aging of espear. I think that would solve many things.

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Post by lalasushi »

morgar, think about it for a molment, u want to be equal to a stick with all the benefits of ments, how is that fair, MT, deplete, haste, psi mirror.... these goodies make up for ur damage. feel lucky u even have attack spells! sticks attack! psi support! :)

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Watcher
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Post by Watcher »

Originally posted by lalasushi


morgar, think about it for a molment, u want to be equal to a stick with all the benefits of ments, how is that fair, MT, deplete, haste, psi mirror.... these goodies make up for ur damage. feel lucky u even have attack spells! sticks attack! psi support! :)
I think they call those fighter/ments :>

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Post by Drdrunk »

since some of you are saying ments have variety to make up for damage, maybe focis and chis should be taken away? you have just as much variety as ments, and deal more damage.

taking those away was a joke in case someone is thick.
Last edited by Drdrunk on Tue Oct 15, 2002 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Valarc
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Post by Valarc »

Originally posted by lalasushi


what you must realize valarc, is ments arent sticks, they arent built to tank things, get used to being a support crit or make a stick is my advice..... when im skill 24, my dmg from JS will be nowhere near ur elance, im not complaining :) im waiting for the big tamalies hehe
I never asked to be a stick, I asked for my damage to be on a level that is reasonable. Up until very recently (skill 20-21 or so), I hit harder with skill 9 LS than skill 20whatever ment.

Take a minute to soak that in...

skill NINE ls.

Lala, you do a lot of complaining about how much MAs are screwed this way and screwed that way... ask almost any ment and they will tell you when they got to cob as soon as they got the cob RD gaunts they started using MA skill more than their natural abilities. A skill 15 or 16 ment using several lower skill MA, WITH ONE ATTACK PER ROUND, because it FAR outdamages espear. I'm not asking to hit as hard as a stick, I'm asking for my damage to not be a joke.
Valarc___STORM, usually found in #storm on irc, and in the pillar room in cob

**Excerpt from an actual Lobby chat session**

chance: does valarc eva leave game
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Brad: didnt you know that?

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Post by lalasushi »

you are suggesting communism in this game, the classes are not made to be equal, to be so would make a really sucky game, different classes do different things, take away chi's focus? i dont care, i will move on then, why not jack up ments so they can 1 hit everything, then will u be happy?, and when was the last time i complained about ma's please val, i have not said 1 peep since JS, and u wont hear one, cuz im content with my dmg
Last edited by lalasushi on Tue Oct 15, 2002 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Drdrunk »

and my caution about a joke was totally ignored, lol.

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Post by buho »

> In a game where skill is everything, and kill equals skill [...]

Very well said, Morgar.

My healer have the same problem ments have: he cant kill, he cant skill.

Im one of those healers who think healers are not for attack and Ive stated my position a couple of times in the old forums. Youll never see my healer using assault in a lair or in a hard party fight, he willl be healing and protecting.

But, please, give me a chance to skill too! The need to set up a party any time I want to get some appreciable skill in a game session is ruining my fun.

buho.

Valarc
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Post by Valarc »

Originally posted by Drdrunk

taking those away was a joke in case someone is thick.
Apparantly you ARE thick lala so I'm going to spell it out for you even though I've said it a hundred times in the past

I AM NOT ASKING TO BE THE SAME AS A STICK

I want my damage to be significant, to be realistic, to be on the same order of magnitude of that of the other classes in game. This is a game in which one's ability to advance is dependant on killing things. You must damage things to kill them. I dont want to go into lairs and be primarily a hitter, but I would like my damage to be at least useful in a skill party. Casting prots hardly takes up all my time when partied. I'm not asking to take on the role of a stick, if that were the case I would play a stick. I want the game to be balanced... I want my damage to be REASONABALE. Not awesome, not to oneshot every lair in the game, just would not like to be outdamaged by using a weapon 10 skills lower than my main. You insist on putting words in my mouth, making stupid assumptions like saying I want to oneshot lairs. I want game balance, I want my ability to gain skill solo to be on par of that of other classes, I want my main attack to hit at least as hard as a feeble girl, and not a feeble girl swinging a goose down pillow.
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Rone
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Post by Rone »

Umm... ok.. I'm not sure where to start with these idiotic replies. First of all, how do you get skill? you kill, ofcoarse, duhhhh suhi. "feel lucky u even have attack spells!psi support!" uhhh ahem.. right whatever. You know what's best, casting prots is a ment's way of skilling. Riiiigggggghhhhhtttttt, a brainer there.

"the classes are not made to be equal, to be so would make a really sucky game" Another idiotic comment. How would balancing the class make this a sucky game, classes are ment to be balanced. (make a change and think for a second, actually, takes 15 minutes)

Val did not ask to one-shots lairs, he's saying to make damage "reasonable". Ments can't one-shot any lairs MA/pally/thief can't anyways, which is none reasonable lairs. Lance isn't that much as people "rumored". Mostly 800ish damage per shot, which takes about 1/2 of TOTAL EP (meaning about 5 rounds just to recharge for one shot with 2 lori robe, and I won't even start with insane EP regen in Nork, I shouldn't even compare to Nork anyways, home is Cob). Well, so you say there's zaps? Well ofcoarse there is, however, ments need to drink a zap 1/2 or 1/3 turns to keep up with damage? I think not, that's insane time pour into spider hunting. And zaps are NOT EASY to get a bag of if you thinking lance rule Nork. One a day from GH isn't "really" gonna do much. I don't limit you one IH a day or hunt IH all day to be fueled, do I?Better yet, sticks are able to do CONSTANT REAONSABLE damage everyround with no pause.



Reply to:

morgar, think about it for a molment, u want to be equal to a stick with all the benefits of ments, how is that fair, MT, deplete, haste, psi mirror.... these goodies make up for ur damage. feel lucky u even have attack spells! sticks attack! psi support!

you are suggesting communism in this game, the classes are not made to be equal, to be so would make a really sucky game, different classes do different things, take away chi's focus? i dont care, i will move on then, why not jack up ments so they can 1 hit everything, then will u be happy?, and when was the last time i complained about ma's please val, i have not said 1 peep since JS, and u wont hear one, cuz im content with my dmg

Last edited by: lalasushi on 16-10-02 01:59:25
Last edited by Rone on Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Watcher
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Post by Watcher »

Actually, big ments can and do solo nork lairs.

If espear was pumped up on the same order of let's say a stick at the same level, then everyone would be playing a mentalist. Imagine a paladin hitting for 700 a whack in Cobrahn. Then here comes a hasted mentalist that can do twice that in the same round. The paladin will think to itself, boy I'm stupid for playing a paladin! I should reroll to a mentalist! :>

I do believe it's why they gave 4 slots per account, so one can enjoy the thrills and remark on the downsides of each class.

High level mentalists do things very well. In that respect they are kind of like MA's, they don't blossom out until they get quite large. Once large in skill, the mentalist is extremely powerful.

The same with high level healers, they might well be the most powerful of all the classes at high levels imo. They won' t take on the huge cobrahn critters solo like Vanidor or DeathSasquatch, but I don't think too many of any class do that now <g>.

I like my fighter ment because of the area discs. Just notch them babies down with some firebreath/icebreath/ec, then enmiss or espear the much weakened critters. In nork it can actually kill at a much faster rate than my barbarian which is twice its size. That's because of area discs.

And then there is the controversy of chocolate milk made from syrup or powder. Which is better? Will the controversy never end!!! :>

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Post by Rone »

Espear for 1400+ a round.. hmm.. Paladins also obtain armorstrike which remedies that with NO stats lost and constant usage. Ment have to keep in haste to keep up with damage, and not to mention only a HUGE ment would to be able to espear for that much a round.


Reply to:

If espear was pumped up on the same order of let's say a stick at the same level, then everyone would be playing a mentalist. Imagine a paladin hitting for 700 a whack in Cobrahn. Then here comes a hasted mentalist that can do twice that in the same round. The paladin will think to itself, boy I'm stupid for playing a paladin! I should reroll to a mentalist! :>
Last edited by Rone on Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Elessar
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Post by Elessar »

Watcher was speaking hypothetically, and his point has value. Ments have area discs, and espear is never blocked, never misses. If a ment could haste up, tp to zoo, EC zoo down to one shot, knock them off one by one with a pumped up espear for full skill, then every other class would be complaining just like ments are now. I'm not saying ment's dont need any kind of help with their target discs, but balance is a delicate issue. Significantly pumping up a class might make that class happy, but is likely to make other classes angry, whether its valid or just jealousy. Just look at how quickly things changed with barbs, from not being a viable option in cob to dominating it.

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