Giving us a 2nd attack with throw was a nice start. However.. for this skill to actually be worth it.. it should be expanded upon a little bit more..
When you get thrown skill to 32, 35, 37 .. Add more attacks when using the "throw" command.. for 3rd, 4th, 5th.
At skills 31,33,36, give us damage increases to thrown attacks, rb, and dozens..
At skill 38... cut down reuse timer on RB and Dozens from 50 rounds to 25 rounds.
Feel free to cut down my suggestions and tell me it would be overpowering however.. at the moment I feel RB and dozens are underpowered and I honestly never use them. And thrown really doesnt do much damage even with 2 attacks.
Thieves and Throwing
Re: Thieves and Throwing
Dozens and Razorblades should work along the same lines as the thrown thing, Thrown hits twice, so why doesnt Razorblades + Dozens hit twice? Its using throwing, so why not.
Then if you implement a scale 2,3,4,5 extra swings, RB and Dozens should follow this pattern.
The re-use on RB is really high.
Then if you implement a scale 2,3,4,5 extra swings, RB and Dozens should follow this pattern.
The re-use on RB is really high.
Elessar: karbeck is a sweety
Re: Thieves and Throwing
Overpowered?
My own comment from another thread kinda sums up my views:
"And Razorblades and Dozens? NL only, 40 to 50 rounds reuse, have to skill Thrown skill cause weap-in-hand skill means jack for it and I get blocked alot (throw in that since it's physical, all damage-reflect hits back... so much for using Dozens in GDH at all). When it's 2 round reuse and no damage reflect then bitch that we were given alot."
Our powerful, every-round or every-other-round attack has been backstab for ages. That's what created the mystique of the powerful thief. Now you get large, where do you backstab? GDH2? BDH? Enemy DoT, large attacks vs our low HP, no hp version of a uzi, very high skill req'd to hide at any hp and without a party, I'm the main course.
That leaves DoT and Thrown. Since the fix, thrown is slow to gain as even with 2 attacks per throw, it's hard to oneshot (just limit the skill per kill to self !). I have to Dozens a zoo down, hoping not to kill them (even removing gear to soften the attack) and still, only some can be ks'ed in one round. The to-hit oomph of RB and 12s isn't part of Throwing. I hear clink-clink.. it's not me toasting with champagne glasses.
I'd hate to think I have to work Thrown as high as what's in this thread to get more throws per, well, throw but at least it's a goal with a neat reward.
But why not also:
1) Only for throwing, I'd like to see combined to this list
a) a boost to Attack stats. I have 11 Attacks. Attack rings means giving up agi I'm dependant on for hiding. If not, why not treat Attacks as a stat that BL, Needler and Therm rings can add to? That will help ments and healers working up weap skill as well.
b) some kind of to-hit boost between 2-clink and attack tiers. If not, why not add it to some exisitng tier like Veil of Deceit? I realize we have to work up Thrown skill but seeing that Thrown enhances 2 tiers gotten thru Thievery, why not allow Thievery to boost Thrown?
2) At some thief skill, I like to one day be able to take haste without agi penalty if Brad won't change the NL agi to base 25 max. I lost 1 agi giving up BNR finally for a Marton and that gives me pause. Merc Captain with agi54 sees me on hex but not long enough to swing and he'll wander off... at agi 52, he moved in from 1 hex away and reacted... wham! I got to base 25 thru annual events so I'm at the best str and agi I'll ever get.
Like the class arguments I've seen in forums, pro and con, it's hard to see a certain PoV unless you've played the class. I love playing thief more than any other now. But I'm going it alone alot due to needing BDH and it's slow as hell and too dangerous for backstab.
EDIT: RB and 12s reuse... seriously, too long.
My own comment from another thread kinda sums up my views:
"And Razorblades and Dozens? NL only, 40 to 50 rounds reuse, have to skill Thrown skill cause weap-in-hand skill means jack for it and I get blocked alot (throw in that since it's physical, all damage-reflect hits back... so much for using Dozens in GDH at all). When it's 2 round reuse and no damage reflect then bitch that we were given alot."
Our powerful, every-round or every-other-round attack has been backstab for ages. That's what created the mystique of the powerful thief. Now you get large, where do you backstab? GDH2? BDH? Enemy DoT, large attacks vs our low HP, no hp version of a uzi, very high skill req'd to hide at any hp and without a party, I'm the main course.
That leaves DoT and Thrown. Since the fix, thrown is slow to gain as even with 2 attacks per throw, it's hard to oneshot (just limit the skill per kill to self !). I have to Dozens a zoo down, hoping not to kill them (even removing gear to soften the attack) and still, only some can be ks'ed in one round. The to-hit oomph of RB and 12s isn't part of Throwing. I hear clink-clink.. it's not me toasting with champagne glasses.
I'd hate to think I have to work Thrown as high as what's in this thread to get more throws per, well, throw but at least it's a goal with a neat reward.
But why not also:
1) Only for throwing, I'd like to see combined to this list
a) a boost to Attack stats. I have 11 Attacks. Attack rings means giving up agi I'm dependant on for hiding. If not, why not treat Attacks as a stat that BL, Needler and Therm rings can add to? That will help ments and healers working up weap skill as well.
b) some kind of to-hit boost between 2-clink and attack tiers. If not, why not add it to some exisitng tier like Veil of Deceit? I realize we have to work up Thrown skill but seeing that Thrown enhances 2 tiers gotten thru Thievery, why not allow Thievery to boost Thrown?
2) At some thief skill, I like to one day be able to take haste without agi penalty if Brad won't change the NL agi to base 25 max. I lost 1 agi giving up BNR finally for a Marton and that gives me pause. Merc Captain with agi54 sees me on hex but not long enough to swing and he'll wander off... at agi 52, he moved in from 1 hex away and reacted... wham! I got to base 25 thru annual events so I'm at the best str and agi I'll ever get.
Like the class arguments I've seen in forums, pro and con, it's hard to see a certain PoV unless you've played the class. I love playing thief more than any other now. But I'm going it alone alot due to needing BDH and it's slow as hell and too dangerous for backstab.
EDIT: RB and 12s reuse... seriously, too long.
Starfire: There are two wolves fighting in each man's heart. One is Love, the other is Hate.
Ghost: Which one wins?
Starfire: The one you feed the most.
---Pathfinder
Ghost: Which one wins?
Starfire: The one you feed the most.
---Pathfinder
Re: Thieves and Throwing
Things to consider:
Quick Shadow (11% chance to trigger at sk 37, 20/20 purchases) can trigger on both throws when on hex. This gives the thief about a 1/5th chance of at least one backstab going off in a round. No loss of hide, and if the thief has enough skill, virtually no risk from targeted enemy attacks.
Every additional throw added is another 11% of at at least one backstab going off. Factor in haste, which thieves will be taking once the sk 39 F/M ability is attained, and it gets silly. Why does the thief then even need to actually backstab, when they can just spam thrown and assume no risk while getting triggered backstabs?
Throwing has one of the better to hit's in the game. You don't have to take my word on it if you'd like, but Sk 35+ throwing is delightful from my point of view.
IMO, the problem you present Migam, is not a matter of throwing or backstab, it's just a result of content not fitting class play styles. But, this is to be expected when content is party oriented.
Yes, thrown is hard to work up, but then so is dagger, bow, staff, etc, and if you're doing throwing just for RB/Dozens, you're missing out.
Quick Shadow (11% chance to trigger at sk 37, 20/20 purchases) can trigger on both throws when on hex. This gives the thief about a 1/5th chance of at least one backstab going off in a round. No loss of hide, and if the thief has enough skill, virtually no risk from targeted enemy attacks.
Every additional throw added is another 11% of at at least one backstab going off. Factor in haste, which thieves will be taking once the sk 39 F/M ability is attained, and it gets silly. Why does the thief then even need to actually backstab, when they can just spam thrown and assume no risk while getting triggered backstabs?
Throwing has one of the better to hit's in the game. You don't have to take my word on it if you'd like, but Sk 35+ throwing is delightful from my point of view.
IMO, the problem you present Migam, is not a matter of throwing or backstab, it's just a result of content not fitting class play styles. But, this is to be expected when content is party oriented.
Yes, thrown is hard to work up, but then so is dagger, bow, staff, etc, and if you're doing throwing just for RB/Dozens, you're missing out.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill
trav: you bad bad girl
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill
trav: you bad bad girl
Re: Thieves and Throwing
That on hex requirement for QS is another thing that irks me about throw. Unless you're killing braindead (stand still when they see no player) crits you're only ever going to be on-hex most of the time when in a party... at which point the whole argument of "well you can do it without risk" goes out the window because breaking hide to backstab puts you in no more risk then the rest of the party. So you may as well just backstab so you can benefit from the backstab quirks (which AFAIK don't work off QS) and not do completely laughable damage (although it's still second rate compared to other melee classes).Quick Shadow (11% chance to trigger at sk 37, 20/20 purchases) can trigger on both throws when on hex.
Re: Thieves and Throwing
I haven't reached those levels in skill yet so I'll take you at your word. My thrown isn't even Primal... just hoped for a thrown boost dependant on thievery instead of working up that blasted Thrown so high to hit in GDH+. If very high thievery and thrown does that well, fine. It's getting there that's killing me.
Starfire: There are two wolves fighting in each man's heart. One is Love, the other is Hate.
Ghost: Which one wins?
Starfire: The one you feed the most.
---Pathfinder
Ghost: Which one wins?
Starfire: The one you feed the most.
---Pathfinder
Re: Thieves and Throwing
The 11% factor doesnt come into effect when you are throwing at enemies off hex. When I am hidden from creatures and they dont see me.. they do not stand on my hex..
The damage from thrown (2 attacks) is nowhere near that of the damage of my main weapon. This is why I beleive we should gain additional bonuses to thrown from *high thrown skill* to reward those who bother to skill it up, this is a tertiary skill and at this time iffy at best on whether one should even bother skilling it up.. The damage even in the off chance you are throwing an an enemy on hex and get a backstab still is much lower than the backstab of an actual weapon. And even backstab with a regular weapon is questionable as a "high damage" attack.
My concern here is that why should one thief bonus be applied to thrown if we arent going to get any more bonuses towards it, as the one bonus we have earned for it just isnt enough to be worth it.. Yes I have thrown skill over 35 and my opinion of this skill varies from yours Darge.. And I have a feeling that others feel the same as me.
Darge, I appreciate your input and I know that you do many tests.. Rather than just downing my idea.. how about helping with alternative ideas that fix this class.
The damage from thrown (2 attacks) is nowhere near that of the damage of my main weapon. This is why I beleive we should gain additional bonuses to thrown from *high thrown skill* to reward those who bother to skill it up, this is a tertiary skill and at this time iffy at best on whether one should even bother skilling it up.. The damage even in the off chance you are throwing an an enemy on hex and get a backstab still is much lower than the backstab of an actual weapon. And even backstab with a regular weapon is questionable as a "high damage" attack.
My concern here is that why should one thief bonus be applied to thrown if we arent going to get any more bonuses towards it, as the one bonus we have earned for it just isnt enough to be worth it.. Yes I have thrown skill over 35 and my opinion of this skill varies from yours Darge.. And I have a feeling that others feel the same as me.
Darge, I appreciate your input and I know that you do many tests.. Rather than just downing my idea.. how about helping with alternative ideas that fix this class.