Barb Abilities 31+

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Cobra
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Barb Abilities 31+

Post by Cobra »

I would like to suggest getting rid of the cleave ablities on barb and giving us 5 or 10% damage boost instead. Could also make it so that more than the first attack is at full force, much like the lvl 51 boost is. Cleave has very little use in normal fighting. It is good to use on lairs, but what about everyday fighting. Other classes get damage boost here and there, and we get cleave boosts. Also, maybe have the higher skill stuff be a chance for another fury attack, or maybe pooled hps. Boosting cleave abilities is not a good 'reward' for getting the skills that high.

May I also suggest adding immunity to primal stun at 39, along with chance to inflict it.

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Tirith
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Re: Barb Abilities 31+

Post by Tirith »

adding another fury attack... I think tacking on a 5th swing to fury would be a good idea... maybe at around 37 and a 6th at 39 or 40...

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Darge
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Re: Barb Abilities 31+

Post by Darge »

Cobra wrote:I would like to suggest getting rid of the cleave ablities on barb and giving us 5 or 10% damage boost instead.
It's kind of funny you say that, because the improved Cleave functionality makes it one of their better abilities inside of a party in my opinion; better than +5/10% damage anyway.

But I think the general consensus for Barbarians will always be to improve their functionality as an 'auto ability' class with little depth and even less demand on attention span.
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My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

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Cobra
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Re: Barb Abilities 31+

Post by Cobra »

Darge wrote:
Cobra wrote:I would like to suggest getting rid of the cleave ablities on barb and giving us 5 or 10% damage boost instead.
It's kind of funny you say that, because the improved Cleave functionality makes it one of their better abilities inside of a party in my opinion; better than +5/10% damage anyway.

But I think the general consensus for Barbarians will always be to improve their functionality as an 'auto ability' class with little depth and even less demand on attention span.
Only noobs play barbs without paying attention, and then wonder why they suck at it. All classes can be played with little thought and ability using critsort and half a brain.

Having played my barb for many years, I've only come across a few situations where cleave is viable to use considering the dumb dezerk affect of it. Zerk is the one ability barbs have always had and it's what they do. Naturally adding to the zerking capabilities of a barb just makes sense. An ability that is annoying to use because it takes away zerk, which is what barbs are supposed to do for the past 15 years of the game, is dumb in my opinion. I would much rather see damage increase, more hits, more full force hits on zerk, than some ability that takes away zerk and tries to change what barbs have been for the life of the game.

Let's face it, people who are going to get to this size are going to do it because they like what the class is, which is a zerker, not a debuffer that costs zerk to even use.

Cobra

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Poldarn
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Re: Barb Abilities 31+

Post by Poldarn »

I too, think a 5th swing on fury would be a nice way to increase barbs damage fairly, with a high skill req (37+). Sorry to hi-jack cobra, just agreeing with tir's earlier hi-jack.

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Darge
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Re: Barb Abilities 31+

Post by Darge »

Cobra wrote: Having played my barb for many years, I've only come across a few situations where cleave is viable to use considering the dumb dezerk affect of it. Zerk is the one ability barbs have always had and it's what they do. Naturally adding to the zerking capabilities of a barb just makes sense. An ability that is annoying to use because it takes away zerk, which is what barbs are supposed to do for the past 15 years of the game, is dumb in my opinion. I would much rather see damage increase, more hits, more full force hits on zerk, than some ability that takes away zerk and tries to change what barbs have been for the life of the game.

Let's face it, people who are going to get to this size are going to do it because they like what the class is, which is a zerker, not a debuffer that costs zerk to even use.
I see that as flawed logic. If you look back over the history of barbarians, when has a 'sweet spot' been found in balancing them previously? They've almost always been underpowered or overpowered and the shift can happen with a single update. For the time being at least (from the newest iteration of the Riposte quirk) they are actually pretty spot on as I see it. So just because Barbarians have been one trick ponies for the longest time (a method that hasn't particularly worked well in balancing them), when the game had more solo content, doesn't mean it's not time to start adapting them to the heavy party environment, just like other classes have been.

Personally, I have no problem with increasing Fury itself. In the past I've even suggested a 'chance' at a 5th swing for furies as a skill benefit, and a separate tier than guarantees a 5th swing, stacking with the skill benefit for a 'chance' at a 6th swing with a 20 round duration/100 reuse. But when you start talking about something like immunity to Primal Stun or an increase to pooled hp when Barbarians already have 2k hp more hp than the next highest class AND couple that with improved zerk swings/damage (affecting the impossible-to-balance Vamp auto-ability) you're looking at another of the aforementioned shifts in balance.

In regards to Cleave specifically, you and I are seeing different things then.
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My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

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Poldarn
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Re: Barb Abilities 31+

Post by Poldarn »

Well, cleave has a weak +to hit, as you well know, and also, as i've noticed myself. That makes it too chancey. Perhaps, if you're looking at a cleave fix, not just a barbarian fix, apply a second swing to the cleave ability (possibly reducing damage on swings) and increasing its base chance to hit would be in order? Make sure both swings have the ability to apply the debuff also.

Terrel
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Re: Barb Abilities 31+

Post by Terrel »

I don't play a barb, so forgive my ignorance. What I've heard about "Cleave" is that it misses much more than regular attacks, and that it is a debuff.

Any indication on how long that debuff lasts? Is it a debuff that lowers to hit/damage, or defense, other?

Thanks!

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Poldarn
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Re: Barb Abilities 31+

Post by Poldarn »

it applies a debuff, and i've heard different things said about what the debuff actually does along my time in the game, i haven't been able to say for sure. Tirith used my barb to test cleave against another player, with a storebought hally and something in offhand (to reduce damage) it was still oneshotting the player when it hit, so it's hard to say what it does. Mind you, i have not tried to use it on a player myself yet, for testing purposes. It definately does hit less than normal attacks, which makes it cost far more than just the "50 round zerk penalty" to apply... sometimes taking 2-3 or more "cleaves" to connect. That's why i suggest a doubleswing, with reduced damage and a little +hit.

And as to debuff duration, i wouldnt know at this stage as i've not cleaved someone for less than their entire hp. The damage is good, but that's not what the ability is intended for, im sure.

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Re: Barb Abilities 31+

Post by Cobra »

Cleave could be made to be a tier type ability with a cool down maybe 5-20 rounds more than debuff duration? Balance out the cool down with it not taking zerk to use.

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Skip
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Re: Barb Abilities 31+

Post by Skip »

I am not impressed by Barb 31+ abilities.

Cleave is pretty much a joke - since it does not have a system defined quickbar icon to show when its available for use. And it has a poor chance "to hit".

I'd like to see fury round Barbarians get a "new target lock" for stuff they kill with swing 3 or 4. As it is now, a Barb has to "attack" or "charge" to get targeted onto the next baddie -- right now a Barb only gets a next target if baddie is killed with fury round swing number 1 or 2.

If Barbarian at Full Berserk was intended to be the top damage output Class, then someone needs to tell the Drak gods that we currently are NOT it.

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Acaciam
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Re: Barb Abilities 31+

Post by Acaciam »

Best survivability and top damage. I'm so rerolling.

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Re: Barb Abilities 31+

Post by Cobra »

Acaciam wrote:Best survivability and top damage. I'm so rerolling.
Best survivability would be paladins, just go to any top lair.

I agree with Buzz 100% that the 31+ abilities are a disappointment.

I've heard argued about barbs having more hps than other classes, which is valid in old nork and cob. Once you get to NL and everything is group based, what's the point, you have a healer there pwh every round, so the hp arguement is moot. Not to mention that all the other classes get AH cast on them.

Same is said about vamping in NL as well. All classes get back hps from healing, and since there are very few places to go without a healer, another moot point.

Cobra

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Darge
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Re: Barb Abilities 31+

Post by Darge »

Cobra wrote: I've heard argued about barbs having more hps than other classes, which is valid in old nork and cob. Once you get to NL and everything is group based, what's the point, you have a healer there pwh every round, so the hp arguement is moot. Not to mention that all the other classes get AH cast on them.

Same is said about vamping in NL as well. All classes get back hps from healing, and since there are very few places to go without a healer, another moot point.
High AC must not matter either then.

Martialist = Highest average single crit damage, low to hit, best mass damage.
Paladin= Most damage vs e/e, best AC/psi saves, above average to hit, very party helpful.
Fighter/Mentalist= Extremely versatile, middle ground damage/ac/to hit, very party helpful.
Barbarian= Best to hit, above average damage, vamping/best hp, natural stun immunity/psi resist, very party helpful.

Personally, I'd say Ma's get the short end of the stick, for lack of more natural damage reflect/retributives.
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My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

Cobra
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Re: Barb Abilities 31+

Post by Cobra »

Darge wrote:
Cobra wrote: I've heard argued about barbs having more hps than other classes, which is valid in old nork and cob. Once you get to NL and everything is group based, what's the point, you have a healer there pwh every round, so the hp arguement is moot. Not to mention that all the other classes get AH cast on them.

Same is said about vamping in NL as well. All classes get back hps from healing, and since there are very few places to go without a healer, another moot point.
High AC must not matter either then.

Martialist = Highest average single crit damage, low to hit, best mass damage.
Paladin= Most damage vs e/e, best AC/psi saves, above average to hit, very party helpful.
Fighter/Mentalist= Extremely versatile, middle ground damage/ac/to hit, very party helpful.
Barbarian= Best to hit, above average damage, vamping/best hp, natural stun immunity/psi resist, very party helpful.

Personally, I'd say Ma's get the short end of the stick, for lack of more natural damage reflect/retributives.
I can see how you came to that conclusion about MAs since dragon revenge, laughter, recourse, and the skill ability to reflect damage just isn't enough.

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Re: Barb Abilities 31+

Post by Acaciam »

Cobra wrote: I can see how you came to that conclusion about MAs since dragon revenge, laughter, recourse, and the skill ability to reflect damage just isn't enough.
Glad you agree.

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Darge
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Re: Barb Abilities 31+

Post by Darge »

Play an MA, and then come talk to me about how much Dragon's Laughter/Recourse actually trigger on the high end. Or maybe you could enlighten me on how an extra 100 damage reflect more than other classes is actually making that feature a significant facet of the MA class at top end.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

Cobra
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Re: Barb Abilities 31+

Post by Cobra »

Darge wrote:Play an MA, and then come talk to me about how much Dragon's Laughter/Recourse actually trigger on the high end. Or maybe you could enlighten me on how an extra 100 damage reflect more than other classes is actually making that feature a significant facet of the MA class at top end.
Well, I've been growing an MA darge, and the fact that it can do more damage to 1 crit, or to a whole screen full of crits, than my barb can dream of, I'd say there's no need for retaliation strikes. My MA is doing just fine without any of those quirks. The 31+ skills rock on MA, minus the deathtouch ones, unless that's how you want to play your MA, but so far my MA is doing just fine. He gets hit no more or no less than barb did in mormar, and can solo in the same place I solo'ed my barb when I was growing him.

It could easily be argued that MAs have been way overpowered by the 31+ abilities, but what's the point.

Cobra

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Re: Barb Abilities 31+

Post by Darge »

I didn't say MA's wouldn't do alright without more retributives, I said that on a basis of comparison, MA's tend to measure up short, and so my personal opinion on how to solve said shortcoming is to buff them with features that require them to take damage to dish it back out (MA's get hit the most, generally).

What retributives and damage reflect MA's do have that are unique to them simply aren't that great, especially if stacked up next to a Paladin or Barbarian's retributive.

If you really want to make your point about Barb skill benefits not being enough, you should probably do so on the basis of an overall class comparison with the skill benefits factored in, not just on the merits of, "these skills don't look fantastic."
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

Skip
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Re: Barb Abilities 31+

Post by Skip »

I'd love to be able to equip them currently-MA-only Rift gaunts...

Bet my Barb with 35 MA skill might come closer to the damage output of an MA ;>

Til then, can only hope for some better damage gaunts for us Non-MA's in SDC.

But I'm also glad the Pally's got shown some love with the 31+ ablilities.


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Re: Barb Abilities 31+

Post by Haitklon »

I guess this is sort of beating a dead horse.. I haven't seen a single sysop post in any thread relating to the barbarian 31+ skills being underpowered.

There's a lot of good stuff in here; I already sorta went over it and got pretty flamed up but basically, cleave (however debateable it's power is, and i really don't want to go into that), is counter-productive in the line of barbarian attacks.

See, I want to see the 31+ skill changes as bonuses; really, the two that are used for cleave don't seem to be bonuses, they seem to be bringing the skill up to where it should be in the first place.

Sure. Cleave is mean't to be a debuff; I've tested it out on a few lairs now and really haven't noticed any difference, but i'm told it does something <G>. My tests have shown about 200-300% damage increase and about 60-70% chance to hit of a normal swing.
I got a weird message once too, "You invoke hidden anger," basically annihilated my target. Not sure what that was all about.

Anyways, I like the multiple swings on cleave idea, but I think instead of increasing the the power of cleave or changing it, just give us some new stuff, i mean really. all of our tiers are pretty much passive. click em on and arg away. i want some skills i can use on someone to hurt them, not just make me more beefy.

I think that although Barbs have a tendency to be no-brainers, some new attack skills could really make a difference.

p.s. Brad, if you end up making some new abilities? Err.. try to make them incorporated into the barbarian routine, instead of the complete opposite of what you build us to do. :/

woops, something i forgot to add;
i know "barbs are good enough" is all the rage these days because they've had a pretty overpowered past; barbs are about in the medium power range, and i think these skill bonuses (if brad changes the skill cap past 39) will really harm the barb in the long run since none of them are exponential.
nows the time for change

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Acaciam
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Re: Barb Abilities 31+

Post by Acaciam »

Haitklon wrote: I think that although Barbs have a tendency to be no-brainers, some new attack skills could really make a difference.
Like Cleave?

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Re: Barb Abilities 31+

Post by Haitklon »

Once upon a time there was a moron who thought a 2d RPG was a competitive game. He liked to jump into forum conversations that were actually going somewhere and say moronic one-liners which really contributed nothing to the current topic.

He also hadn't even gotten past level 50, and didn't know what the hell he was saying.
You should probably stop talking now.

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Re: Barb Abilities 31+

Post by Acaciam »

Haitklon wrote:Once upon a time there was a moron who thought a 2d RPG was a competitive game. He liked to jump into forum conversations that were actually going somewhere and say moronic one-liners which really contributed nothing to the current topic.

He also hadn't even gotten past level 50, and didn't know what the hell he was saying.
You should probably stop talking now.
Never.

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Re: Barb Abilities 31+

Post by Poldarn »

Haitklon wrote:Once upon a time there was a moron who thought a 2d RPG was a competitive game. He liked to jump into forum conversations that were actually going somewhere and say moronic one-liners which really contributed nothing to the current topic.

He also hadn't even gotten past level 50, and didn't know what the hell he was saying.
You should probably stop talking now.


Well played sir. /agree.

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