Game thoughts

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Doro
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Game thoughts

Post by Doro »

Watch out, Doro's been thinking again!

What makes the game fun?
What makes the game boring?

Two questions much on my mind lately . . .

No matter what Brad does, there will be players who seem to be able to circumvent the system whether it be buring Dornar for exp or partying for massive skill.
Either way if we were all to play like some seasoned players (JIHAD perhaps) we would all get bored and leave until something else is developed in Drakkar.
This is obviously not desired, so I have come up with a few thoughts for comment.

1) Go back to skill gain per attack.

I maybe be on a loosing wicket here, but only give gains for attacks, parties may gain more skill, but a party member that does nothing to help the party should gain NO skill (and possibly no exp either). Even psi types can be automaticall monitered to check for psi casting rates per round etc.

This could stop much of the seeming power levelling where one does all the killing and another afk gets many boosts in exp and skill.

Mechanisms are already in place to prevent a very small player joining forces with a much larger one.

2) Make experience levels non linear.

Much of this game is predictable, make it less predictable by changing the amount of experience needed to gain a level.
Build a quest so that a player may randomly roll to determine how much exp is needed to achieve their next level up.
Set the upper and lower limits according to size and remove the billions of exp number in the game.

If a player is exp level 24, do quest (up to 3 times perhaps) to roll a random number of exp points.
The player, if they are not happy with their first attempt may try again obviously risking an even higher requirement to reach their next level.

So players will have two figures they can look at (1) their current level number, 24 perhaps and (2) an amount of exp needed to get to their next level.
Remove the billions of exp from the game, concentrate on the current exp level and how much is needed to get to the next level.

3) Have random level gains.

If a player reaches the dizzy hieghts of level 40 for example they know exactly how much work they need to do to get to 41 (depressing isn't it).
Build in random exp gains even if it's 1 in a thousand kills to suprise the players and bring back the excitement.

4) Put gains back in Cob and even Nork for big folks.

I cannot work out why there are exp and skills in various parts of NL for bigger folks and none in Cob or Nork.
To stop them nuking areas and powerlevelling smaller folks?
Put other things in place to prevent it, a simple prevention trigger that checks party and removes gains for the smaller player?

I HAVE to go to Cob to get coin, why do I not get exp or skill?

5) Put back skill scrolls.

I have covered exp gains, randomise as much as possible, but skill scrolls were fun. Much of this game is predictable, bring back the shock of finding a scroll that gives even a 1% boost in skill, build in a quest rather than a simple trader.

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I am sure I can think of much more, but I risk talking to a brick wall without further feedback from game ops and Brad.

Other players feel free constructively criticise
- oh you are already free to do that!

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At least I'm trying to help things along to stop folks leaving eh?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am sure I read somehwere that Brad was going to blow the lid off exp levels and skill gains, I am not sure we have seen it yet.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As we progress in the game you would think we could learn to swim or at least start to learn to swim. Currently we loose more and more hits as we get bigger, shouldn't it be the other way around?

Edits. typos in body, new stuff being added at the bottom.
Last edited by Doro on Sun May 15, 2005 4:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
ho

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Darge
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Post by Darge »

Originally posted by Doro

4) Put gains back in Cob and even Nork for big folks.

I cannot work out why there are exp and skills in various parts of NL for bigger folks and none in Cob or Nork.
To stop them nuking areas and powerlevelling smaller folks?
Put other things in place to prevent it, a simple prevention trigger that checks party and removes gains for the smaller player?

I HAVE to go to Cob to get coin, why do I not get exp or skill?
Because then you would never go to dl except for quests. Heres an idea you should seriously think about, suck it up and coin for your hps like alot of the other players post 55/30 have done, or dont whine about it at least.
SIN
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Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

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Esper
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Post by Esper »

You remind me of a story about a blind kid whining about why the world is black.

Everyone sees it differently. The game won't be curved to fit your standards.
Last edited by Esper on Sun May 15, 2005 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Doro
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Post by Doro »

ah, shot down in flames again :)

Can't blame someone for trying though?

Is only a series of ideas to spice up the game, I know some think it's already spicey enough. I was only making comment, no need to be called ridiculous I thought it had worth, we learn much as we play the game, I thought we could learn to swim.

Ridiculous?

Nothing like encouraging ideas is there?

Now shut up Doro and get on with it or leave, stop whining - there, I have said it for you.

Which would you rather have as a game developer?
1) No one says anything and leave.
2) Have some constructive novel player feedback.

I can and will continue to offer ideas and thoughts regardless of being derided.
Last edited by Doro on Sun May 15, 2005 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PieterPost
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Post by PieterPost »

I would actually love to see skillgain tied to swings again rather than kills.

Nemesis

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ZhouYu
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Post by ZhouYu »

Sorry if it causes Hell's minions to pour out and take over the world...

But I gotta concur with Pieter.

Most people who I've talked to about it seem to be of the same opinion.
The music I want to hear is once again, whispered in my ear.

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Pepma
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Post by Pepma »

Originally posted by PieterPost


I would actually love to see skillgain tied to swings again rather than kills.

Nemesis

Along with this would come the skill gain slowness of the old system (it was much slower). And then even more people would whine because lots already whine now about the skill system being slow (and its not, despite what people think)....

max|pic
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Post by max|pic »

i would personally love soemting to take away the boring sameness of it all
its basicly WOW, i got lvl 20!~
someone:ok, now go grunt to 30
then ur like WEEHOO, i made lvl 30!
someone: ok, go do the same thing to lvl 40
and so on

and solo'ers get punished, which is ghey...
i dont mind an hour or so of grunting, but why does it have to take so much of doing the same thing to get anywhere?
the people that lvl the fastest are the onest hat spend like 12 hours a day in forgs and dornar
just doing the same thing over and over again where they can do it in their sleep

should be fun to lvl cause games are an escape, not a job

and i thin it would be nice to gain exp in cob again...
yea past lvl 55 u gain less exp per crit as u lvl, but dl is a ****ing boring thing
ok, you grunted in nork to lvl 18, then u grunted in cob, then you grunted in nameless, WEEHOO, u get to grunt in DL

max|pic
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Post by max|pic »

anyway, i think it would be nice to see
lairs give actual exp like the sekora lairs, but i dont see why in groups lair exp gets cut..
if for killing like lors every member gets, i think its 30 meg if i forget
that wouldnt be to bad of a way to lvl
kill merkon and every party member get like 20 or so megs
just an idea

and why not make it where u gain 1/2 exp in nork, cob after lvl 53 or so
and 1/2 in regular nl after 55
1/4th in cob, nork, nl at lvl 60

would stop people from burning to lvl 70
but still let people play in other senerios some

a person at lvl 60 gos from making like 120 meg an hour in d5 and 6 to making
30 megs, doubt many would burn that much then

since things in game are like eq, why not have an quest where u can get the 10 dose 200% exp potion and make it like 200% exp and a 200% skill pot
make it ask for random items every time u do it instead of same thing over and over again

another thing brad could put in game to make it less boring is an area where the mosters are unpredictable or osmething
and some more areas in like nl and dl

ive known several people to quit the game because its just the same all the time, no change really, u grunt here, u grunt there

and not all of them will come back
Last edited by max|pic on Sun May 15, 2005 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Esper
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Post by Esper »

Originally posted by Doro

No matter what Brad does, there will be players who seem to be able to circumvent the system whether it be buring Dornar for exp or partying for massive skill.
You've got to be kidding. Do you even know what the system is, or is this just your own opinion of what it might be?

The burning of Dornar isn't circumventing the system. What do you think Dornar is for? The place was made to be a place to gain exp.

Partying for massive skill is circumventing the system? We all know that it IS the system.

This is why you remind me of the blind kid.
1) Go back to skill gain per attack.

I maybe be on a loosing wicket here, but only give gains for attacks, parties may gain more skill, but a party member that does nothing to help the party should gain NO skill (and possibly no exp either). Even psi types can be automaticall monitered to check for psi casting rates per round etc.

This could stop much of the seeming power levelling where one does all the killing and another afk gets many boosts in exp and skill.

Mechanisms are already in place to prevent a very small player joining forces with a much larger one.
Skilling is already easy as it is. Who in their right mind would want to want it more difficult? Pepma explained why this won't work out.
2) Make experience levels non linear.

Much of this game is predictable, make it less predictable by changing the amount of experience needed to gain a level.
Build a quest so that a player may randomly roll to determine how much exp is needed to achieve their next level up.
Set the upper and lower limits according to size and remove the billions of exp number in the game.

If a player is exp level 24, do quest (up to 3 times perhaps) to roll a random number of exp points.
The player, if they are not happy with their first attempt may try again obviously risking an even higher requirement to reach their next level.

So players will have two figures they can look at (1) their current level number, 24 perhaps and (2) an amount of exp needed to get to their next level.
Remove the billions of exp from the game, concentrate on the current exp level and how much is needed to get to the next level.
Remove billions of exp from the game? What happens to players who have already reached the top? The Exp system of Drakkar which has been here for over a decade won't be changed just to keep your interest in the game.
3) Have random level gains.

If a player reaches the dizzy hieghts of level 40 for example they know exactly how much work they need to do to get to 41 (depressing isn't it).
Build in random exp gains even if it's 1 in a thousand kills to suprise the players and bring back the excitement.
I don't know what you mean by random level gains. Same thing goes.. The exp system won't be changed.
4) Put gains back in Cob and even Nork for big folks.

I cannot work out why there are exp and skills in various parts of NL for bigger folks and none in Cob or Nork.
To stop them nuking areas and powerlevelling smaller folks?
Put other things in place to prevent it, a simple prevention trigger that checks party and removes gains for the smaller player?

I HAVE to go to Cob to get coin, why do I not get exp or skill?
It's the same reason that level 40 players in Nork doesn't go to Nork-1 to grunt. The player is just too advanced for certain places in the game. Why would advanced players gain experience (define the term if you have to) by hunting in an easy area of the game, and not where they should be hunting?

And no, you don't HAVE to go back to Cob to coin.
5) Put back skill scrolls.

I have covered exp gains, randomise as much as possible, but skill scrolls were fun. Much of this game is predictable, bring back the shock of finding a scroll that gives even a 1% boost in skill, build in a quest rather than a simple trader.
There was a reason that skill scrolls were removed in the first place. One of them was to prevent players from gaining skill 31+, without the Primal quest. Another was to better fit the currect DZ skill system. Like I said, skill is easy to gain as it is.

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Doro
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Post by Doro »

Well what to say after all that?

Have you been chatting to Brad about all this or are you in fact Brad?

I am happy to accept all you say, they were as I said, just some ideas.

I had hoped that I was making suggestions to Brad/game ops, I didn't realise the replies would be quite so vitriolic.

I don't wish to bend the game to my standard, it was just some ideas thorwn out.
They obviously have fallen on stoney ground as many others have.
I thought this was the Drak Ideas thread, but with replies like I am getting I will not be posting any more.

Thanks for the fun and support for new ideas in Drak.

I will be posting elswhere on other topics, but not here.
Constructive ideas? There is no support for it here.

At 12.2 megs per EPS (and rising) I am to hunt somewhere other than Cob?
Last edited by Doro on Sun May 15, 2005 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Esper
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Post by Esper »

You gave your ideas and I said why they won't work out. I'm not going to pretend they're good ideas and work with you on them when they're not.
At 12.2 megs per EPS (and rising) I am to hunt somewhere other than Cob?
The maxing of your HP/EP was discussed in another thread that you made recently. Why do you continue to bring it up again and again?

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Kanak
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Post by Kanak »

I for one appreciate informed and well thoughtout ideas.
Lets hope Brad does for it would be nice to see the online player count back above 100.

My take on Doros ideas:
Originally posted by Doro
1) Go back to skill gain per attack.....
I'll bet that this was done to simplify programming. Wouldn't it be nice though to see the base value left as is AND see a bonus for multiple attacks above a set level. This provides incentive to excell. Face it dancing with something above your level is not boring. (unless your loaded with out of range and gifted equipment).
2) Make experience levels non linear.....
Random NO
nonLinear YES
The system thru 50 is historic and should remain. Every one should quest/grunt for the same amount to advance. There is something very wrong with the levels that were set for the new areas. In fact there should be NO level 70's yet. The land is too new.
The required points to level should be reset to be in scope with the reality of the added areas. Its still in Beta and players accepted that possibility when subscribing. If nothing else it gives reason for some that capped and left to come back(They arn't done)
3) Have random level gains....
Perhaps But it should die harder.
Put gains back in Cob and even Nork for big folks.....
Yep! If Brad wants players to mingle and return to lower lands.
*** See 2: Gains made might be inconsequential but its a warm fuzzy to gain something for your work.
5) Put back skill scrolls.
I believe there were problems here. Perhaps a quest might be in order (hey! it beats baking cookies or sewing some booties)


AND Oh Yes: I do want to take swimming classes:)

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Darge
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Post by Darge »

"I thought this was the Drak Ideas thread, but with replies like I am getting I will not be posting any more."

i had to laugh at this because as just about everyone knows the best your gonna get on ANY topic in this forums section, maybe in the near future, the whole section is pointless at this point in time unless it has to do with nl
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

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Atom
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Post by Atom »

Originally posted by Kanak

There is something very wrong with the levels that were set for the new areas. In fact there should be NO level 70's yet. The land is too new.
The required points to level should be reset to be in scope with the reality of the added areas. Its still in Beta and players accepted that possibility when subscribing. If nothing else it gives reason for some that capped and left to come back(They arn't done)
I dont play anymore, just read forums from time to time, and this has got the be the funniest thing ive heard. The land has been out for 2 years now, there defianatly will be players who have reached the top exp lvl. It makes no sense to bring players back by wipping out their exp, you make no sense, think before you post. In fact this entire thread is pretty much a waste of web space. Quit complaining about not gaining coin in NL, nobody NEEDS max hits or eps, in fact i never had them once and was able to survive fine, maybe players need to learn to play.

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Ambrose
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Post by Ambrose »

I applaud the thought, Doro ... especially since your hope is to keep the game 'fresh' for players.

There is a business truth here to be considered: if you are renting out time at the woodpile, you want them to take longer to chop their wood. Hence the grunt.

One day a wood cutter stops and questions how he is spending his time and money. Does Brad need to be concerned? <shrug>

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Post by Stormwind »

Friends in my opinion make this game fun. As for everything else, I'm too busy having fun to care much.

;-)
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Post by Ztinktoof »

NL Lairs are difficult, challenging and FUN! There are excellent rewards for organizing parties and conquering the beasts.

That's 10% of your play in NL.

The other 90%? Mind-numbing tedium. Leveling is not difficult. SKilling is not difficult. It just takes oodles of time. And they are NOT fun. You kill the same things over and over and over and over again.

You might say you do the same thing in Nork and Cob. But NL is a whole 'nother plane of boring existence. Especially once you hit Decay Lands.

It's a complaint that people have been voicing since the segment opened.

I am not sure I agree with Doro's suggestions, but his overall obervation about "fun" is right on.

Every game has people who can grunt like demons. Do you design the game leveling and skilling around them? They are gonna conquer the game and move on to the game-of-the-month no matter what you do.
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Doro
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Post by Doro »

Well at least there is going to be a coining area in NL judging from conference log.

Don't know if it was in the pipeline prior to this thread, but that is of little import.

1 out of 5 isn't bad :)
Last edited by Doro on Sat May 21, 2005 6:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mihey
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Post by Mihey »

Originally posted by Ztinktoof
Every game has people who can grunt like demons. Do you design the game leveling and skilling around them? They are gonna conquer the game and move on to the game-of-the-month no matter what you do.
/sign
Last edited by Mihey on Sat May 21, 2005 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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