Haste and barbs

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Suggs
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Haste and barbs

Post by Suggs »

Brad

Is there a reason why a barbs ARG isn't effected by haste? This is a serious question, not just another moan about how weak barbs are in NL.

All other classes have their abilities/damage doubled when hasted, pallys and MA's become awesome killing machines.

A barb can out damage an unhasted pally, of similar size and skill, if they get lucky and get a fury round, with multiple connects. But as 60 - 70% of a barbs ooc rounds are single hits, a pally can usually kill quicker than a barb, and with a lot less risk. Give the pally haste, and the damage difference is a joke.

Surely barbs should be able to out damage pallys, as a barbs focus is on offense.

I believe that allowing barbs to gain the benefits of haste, while ooc, would greatly improve the class in NL, although I do realize that this would probably unbalance the class even more in the cob segment.

I would appreciate other players comments and thoughts on this issue.

Suggs / Jay__Zand

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Crusher
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Post by Crusher »

I heard Brad was trying to fix the 60-70% single hit OOC rounds. No update on that.

Possible solution is to give barbs a new tier, allow them to "haste" themselves. Loss of strength or con from stressing too much. Agil? I'm not sure about that since it is almost worthless while a barb's zerked. Level 51+ possibly. Maybe add it to BC or another cry.

A logical reason for the addition could be that barbs have all that strength, and their weapon becomes easier to swing.

Another suggestion would be... At level 25, they get fury. All barbs look to get level 25. Why not remove the single hits at a certain level and give them another "boost" with attacks. 2, 4, or 6 hits per round at level 51+ would be nice.

Something near level 50 wouldn't unbalance the class as much in Cob because barbs would hunt less there, except to coin or have fun on hunts.

I never understood why haste didn't work on barbs, but it would make the disc a bit more reasonable. Haste slows down time for the crit, why not for a barb?
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Poldarn
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Post by Poldarn »

i agree. haste or an alternative is required. we simple dont have the offense damage to be good killing machines, and hell, we dont have defense either. its hard enough to connect at skill 32 with discerning eye, in m11. at least increase our damage by letting us have haste... or possibly a PD equivalent. that takes 80 hps per round or 100+ hps per round, at a level req of 55 or so.
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Post by Acaciam »

Originally posted by Poldarn


we simple dont have the offense damage to be good killing machines, and hell, we dont have defense either.
Your defense is you have 3211231923700012 more hp than any other class
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Post by Zeddyboy »

seems like a bad idea to me. a quick fix. brad just needs to keep addressing barbs ooc. like jay said it would be horribly unbalancing in cob and nork. also, barbs only advantage isnt hitting power. you vamp and get hoardes of hp. i just dont think this is the right solution

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Post by Darge »

one way it could be addressed, is to regulate it to post 50 or primal barbs, dont narrow the idea down to include barbs of all sizes
of course if a comment from a barb who is skill 34 was given maybe the mechanics of such an option could be explored further
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art1
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Post by art1 »

increasing the % to fury every round would help barbs out as well. currently they keep getting single hit ooc round and few fury rounds. comparing a hasted RP or a hasted maxstrike to a single hit ooc round of a barb is just uncomparable. brad says dont compare one class to another, but if all other classes can benefit from haste, wouldnt it be fair for barbs to get compensated in some way for lack of haste?

70% chances to fury every round, post 50(or 55) could be a solution, and would make their damage comparable to hasted pallys,ma's.
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Post by Crusher »

Barbs have tons of hits to remedy their lack of defense, so that makes them "even" with paladins. Now, what should be done with the barbs to remedy paladins that can steadily hit harder/more often.

Atleast give barbs the hitting power that fits their description. Reduce the damage on the GK2 hally and increase the damage of OOC attacks instead of decrease them. Increase this damage at higher levels or something. The majority of barbs zerk while using GK2, so it wouldn't change anything. Also, barbs' "powers" are in zerking, so that's where it should be.

If anything this and/or increasing chance for fury would seem to be the best remedy.
Last edited by Crusher on Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Tirith »

I don't know if you have paid attention to brad, but he constantly says, he doesnt want anyone comparing one class to another. thats all you are doing in this thread is comparing. you arent gonna get anything from brad that way

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Post by Joesy001 »

Adding my tidbit, and not comparing to any other class.

I am a barb with tiers 1,2 and 4

i am lvl 51 almost 52 and skill 30

with the best gear i can get for a barb in segment 1 NL

therefore i should almost have outgrown the first segment of nameless and be moving on. Yet more then 4 crits in dornar 1 and I am struggling to survive let alone kill. All I can do in a party is pull a couple of crits to the pally and kill the crits that run away from him.

A problem I encounter is my zerked hits seem to not be enough for the lower levels and I m only a small amount off max ch hits. I can survive the hits well on D-1. but yet my vamp healing is nowhere near enough. i do not normally die, but the trips back to nork every 10-15 min do get tiresome for the measly amount of EXP I do get from my one crit kills.

theres the problems I encounter, if they were fixed I would imagine barbs would go a lot better. But I hve not seen the second scenario yet.

thanks for listening.
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Post by Crusher »

Okay, in NL barbs suck with offense and defense. Only beneficial thing is vamp and their HP. Vamping and HP isn't enough to survive in most areas of NL, not even DL.
Barbs need to hit more often and harder. Barbs are not the "supposed" role of offensive attacker. Hell, they aren't even worth the name "attacker". Everyone else sees them as punching bags.
Why should someone be really strong, crazed, but can't hit worth a flip. They should be able to penetrate most defenses if they strike armor. Give barbs the ability to damage someone just by hitting armor. Add a little message below the attacks that do. "Your attack damages passed opponent's armor." A barb's level should determine how much damage you can do passed the hidden "AC". A high level armor crit like Tort or Lors might only get 10% damage from a level 50 char, but a low level armor crit like a bandit might get 75% damage. If they strike hard enough, they should be able to penetrate defenses completely. Maybe even prone them by just hitting armor.
Now if they are so strong, why doesn't their damage reflect that. Being strong, that gives an even better chance to knock someone down. Prones are increased while zerked, so that's a plus. Damage should be greater while zerked than unzerked.

Side Note: Anyone notice the shortage of "high level" barbs?
Last edited by Crusher on Sun Dec 19, 2004 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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art1
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Post by art1 »

let me divert this thread back to original topic:

all classes can take haste and deal more dmg. can barbs get something like that?

some of you keep saying barbs have 234234 hp, they can vamp etc. thats all well and good, but no one wants to be a punching bag and a meat shield.

take away their ability to vamp if they take haste, vamp is overrated when there is a healer around.
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Post by Yeti »

vamp is overrated in a nork based scenario period. Vamping maybe 300 hp while getting hit for 900/rnd or more is just plain worthless. Increased damage = increased vamping. So either increase the damage with haste, or increase it without haste, but the fact remains it needs to be increased.

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Post by lalasushi »

so barbs should be comparable to a HASTED ma or pally? hmmm, where is your logic. Can they lose as much stats if not more because of all the bonus's they will receive, damage, stats, hit points, vamping.

I dont see why unhasted zerked barbs should compare to a hasted crit and not have a serious downside.

Also the tiers given to barbs indicate they are not offensive purely anymore, but more of a stick party booster class.

The ma's seem to be the main offensive class, so yes, we should change barbs to do more damage than hasted rp! any more bright ideas?

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Post by art1 »

Did you read all the posts beforehand? or just posted without reading to defend MA just incase barbs becomes "uber" like ma's.

The thread is about Pallys and MA's both can benefit from haste, and if Barbs can be given something to compensate for their lack of haste.
I dont see why unhasted zerked barbs should compare to a hasted crit and not have a serious downside.
barbs do take all the negative effects(serious downside) from haste just like any other classes do, only thing is they dont benefit anything from it if they zerk.
The ma's seem to be the main offensive class, so yes, we should change barbs to do more damage than hasted rp! any more bright ideas?
dont get defensive yet genius. we dont want barbs to be doing as much dmg as hasted RP. no one in this thread asked for that. we simply want a compensation for lacking haste when all other classes can haste up. including hasted charging by f/m class.
Last edited by art1 on Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Yeti
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Post by Yeti »

yeh, i dont think anyone is saying unzerked barbs should be able to do the same damage as a hasted pally or ma with no side effects. However, barbs should have the option of killing their stats to do more damage the same way all the other classes do.

At the time haste was taken away from barbs it was most likely deemed necessary, and it most likely WAS necessary. However, barbs are no longer head and shoulders above the rest of the stick classes in the damage OR defense department, and therefore they should have haste given back to them

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Post by Roland »

I believe the serious problem with barbs & haste is their vamping ability. If a barb is hasted he'll be vamping a whole heck of a lot more each round, and would that extra vamping make them invincible?
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Post by Yeti »

if my barb vamped double what he vamps now, he would still use prolly at least double the ihs my fm uses

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Post by lalasushi »

art, you were the one comparing ma's to barbs, i merely stated that barbs dont have any set downsides now, nor did u guys mention a downside in ur statements. You also said that barbs should be main damagers, its obvious what brad has in mind for each class, look at their NL/DL tiers. Think before you bring nork/cob conceptions of character roles into The Nameless Land.The Nameless Land

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Post by Merlin »

Posted by Roland
I believe the serious problem with barbs & haste is their vamping ability. If a barb is hasted he'll be vamping a whole heck of a lot more each round, and would that extra vamping make them invincible?
the all mighty roland has spoken, oh wait, does he even have a barb?

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Post by Dragonslayer »

Originally posted by Merlin

Posted by Roland
I believe the serious problem with barbs & haste is their vamping ability. If a barb is hasted he'll be vamping a whole heck of a lot more each round, and would that extra vamping make them invincible?
the all mighty roland has spoken, oh wait, does he even have a barb?

*Merlz*
Just a note that i seem to recall that brad stopped reading once he saw a personal attack, it is way better to crush his argument by giving some facts about how much you vamp and get damaged.
Last edited by Dragonslayer on Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Merlin
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Post by Merlin »

wasnt an attack, i complemented him,


the mighty roland = you are my idle i wanna be like you!

does he even have a barb? = perfectly normal question.


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art1
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Post by art1 »

art, you were the one comparing ma's to barbs
no, i was comparing MA AND pally getting HASTE to barbs THAT DONT get haste
how hard is that to comprehend?

I am not comparing dmg, i am not comparing anything else, its simple:

All classes can benefit from haste, except for barbs.
i merely stated that barbs dont have any set downsides now
they don't? all their party buffers arent party friendly. psi users hates it. even their sweats gives -int,-wis. so for PRIMAL barbs, they arent good for solo exping anymore, they arent good for doing dmg, they arent good for taking haste, they arent good for giving buffs unless psi users takes proper preparations like collecting roots ahead of time, WHAT GOOD ARE THEY BESIDES SOAKING DMG?
nor did u guys mention a downside in ur statements.
Yes we did. First post by Suggs said hasted barbs will probably be unbalanced in cob segment. I said many times take away their ability to VAMP if they recieve haste so they don't become "invincible". nothing is going to be changed and barbs will be a broken class for life. its real easy to play a MA or a pally and say "BARBS are okay the way they are now", but try playing barb in mormar and see how shitty they really are.
its obvious what brad has in mind for each class
uhuh, your MA got mind reading ability too now? damn barbs get screwed here too.
Think before you bring nork/cob conceptions of character roles into The Nameless Land.
We did, nork and NL is same thing now. Barbs suck for both segments compared to other classes. Cob they do allright and its only because of gk2 hally. A class should not be good or bad based on a weapon. My pally was good before it got killer weapon and now its even better. Barbs sucks before killer weapon, and after getting killer they suck a little less.

quit changing the subject everytime. Its not a thread about increasing barbs dmg. Its a thread about every class can benefit from haste, why cant barbs recieve it as well. If a barb wants to ruin their stats and take haste all the time, its his choice to do so, and should get similar benefits like any other classes do. on the other hand now if a barb takes haste they dont get anything positive at all from it.

cant wait till your next post defending MA's and how OK barbs are the way they are now.
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art1
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Post by art1 »

You also said that barbs should be main damagers
no I did not. Crusher said that. but anyways the thing is simple, i dont see why its making others confused,

Barbs do their fair share of DMG with a +10 nl Killer- no complaints there
Ma's and pallys do their fair share of DMG, the pally using +10 nl killer as well.

Here is where it strays off though,

MA's and pallys can haste up in mormar and do twice or much more dmg when needed,
whereas barbs dont have the option to do so. So Brad, this is where barbs falls short and needs some assistance. If a barb chooses to ruin his/her stats by hasting, they should be allowed to use it, AND benefit from it. Haste supposed to slow time down, it should apply for barbs as well.
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Post by Hulk »

actually barbs CAN benefit from haste in current state. guess issue of you alls argument is haste AND zerk. presently a barb can use haste same as anyone else, when not zerking. zerking is a whole nother region of crit and can't really be comparable with classes who don't zerk (thief, ma, fm, pally). a barb can hasted charge just like a fm. if haste were to be introduced to zerking, zerk would have to be nerfed horribly in all scenarios to compensate...

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