NO PARTY EXPERIENCE FOR BREAKING???WHAT?

[Dimitri]

Gonna be blunt here, what nonsense is this now with no shared party exp in breaking scales or magical items in party? I would love to know what kind of logic was used to come up with that ridiculous idea. It does not improve the game whatsoever. The tanning bug has already been removed and scales drops are not much of a factor over all. All it does is add frustration and an extra burden to ppl. Not a very nice gesture to top off when hunting in mixed party and i get all the exp for scales after my comrades help me gather the dismal 5 or 10 scales that drop as it is after a 4 hour session. Might as well elimate the whole frigging breaking thing if your gonna go that route. Not worth it as it is and thats not how its suppose work imho.

DiMz~

[Watcher]

Most scales I've ever done after many hours of hunting is about 15-17, don't recall exactly.

Someone had suggested (insert name here) that breaking scales could be abused by using two elance ments killing mace npc's and a barb breaking them sharing the experience in a party. This is pure nonsense of course, but I suppose the bill of goods was sold.

My question is can an elance ment one shot a 32K scales wearing NPC? I know my barb can, some taking several shots. But in a party, it's irrelevant as the the scale npc will die quicker than normal.

I don't mind the tanned scales NPC's being eliminated, was too lazy to go tan them anyway.

The ability not to share the spoils of a hunt in scale breaking after many hours of killing is a bit much imo.

Anyway Dimz, I agree, there wasn't a very good reason to do away with party sharing in breaking scales.

What's next? Having a PWD healer not share experience or a Shockwave ment?

Perhap's the Paladin's won't share party experience when multi-striking or a MA when Power Sweeping.

I would be willing to bet that a Paladin, Healer, MA or Mentalist could yield more experience killing critters than the so-called "two elancers" scale breaking party.

Let me suggest something then since a certain Paladin doesn't like shared party scale breaking experience. No shared experience in a party from multi-striking and the Paladin should get 1/4th the normal experience points when it multistrikes.

Oh, that's gotta hurt when someone blasts your class! Oh my!
Wonder if that Paladin thought how much the game can be ruined by sharing party experience in a multi-striking Party! The game can be corrupted! This must be changed!
Urgent! Emergency!


:p

[Darkninja]

Aye, i have to put my 2 cents in the issue because it has really (for lack of a better word) pissed me off since the begining.

Number One, I agree that maybe some1 could possibly misuse that bug where once u tan a scaler u get a scale and get barbs to break, sure and i'm glad that scalers cant be tanned for scales anymore.

But taking the whole barbs share breaking is justa step way too far. Having the barbs share break exp was a nice little feature in drak that we all maybe took for granted but that's how goes all good things in life. Breaking scales gave a little diversity in the whole, kill, kill, kill, for exp. It gave an altnerate way to squeeze a meg or 2 (keep in mind i said...ONE meg or TWO) per hour and this feature could not be abused.

Many Drak players would apperciate if this feature could be put back including myself because it is just nonesense taking it out.

Laterz

[Ragnoker]

I e-mailed Brad when I 1st heard of this and here is his response:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brad@drakkarzone.com <Brad@drakkarzone.com>
Wednesday, July 24, 2002 2:41 PM
Breaking for XP nerfed

Personal exp gain for barbarians is scaled for a single character. Allowing barbarians (and other personal exp gainers) to give free experience to group members (including other barbarians) was a bug introduced a few months ago.

It is on the order of a coin dupe bug in game destruction, so it was removed.

In order to have such a feature, we would have to completely rescale all personal exp gains..(probably by cutting them by a factor of 6 or more). We just dont have the time to do that, nor is it in the spirit of the game.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Take it for what ya want guys but doesn't look like it will be changed back

Ragnoker_PHNX

[Glue]

I had heard that another reason was that alot of crits were joining partys with Barbs then leaving for the day and gaining lots of exp while not even at the computer. Now that's not really fair to gain exp for not even being there is it?

[Watcher]

Originally posted by Ragnoker


I e-mailed Brad when I 1st heard of this and here is his response:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brad@drakkarzone.com <Brad@drakkarzone.com>
Wednesday, July 24, 2002 2:41 PM
Breaking for XP nerfed

Personal exp gain for barbarians is scaled for a single character. Allowing barbarians (and other personal exp gainers) to give free experience to group members (including other barbarians) was a bug introduced a few months ago.

It is on the order of a coin dupe bug in game destruction, so it was removed.

In order to have such a feature, we would have to completely rescale all personal exp gains..(probably by cutting them by a factor of 6 or more). We just dont have the time to do that, nor is it in the spirit of the game.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ragnoker_PHNX

So Brad is saying that a barbarian or any other barbarian breaking scales in a party will have more impact on the game that let's say a GS pally multistriking using Excally?

I don't think so.

Or a PWD healer on km4?

I don't think so.

Or a ment using spell of choice, SW, FB or whatever.

I don't think so.


Give me an excally and a Pal and I'll prove it.

[flisk]

Watcher,

Here is another viable reason it might have been taken out:
I can log my crit in and join a barb's party; then head to work or school for the day; and that barb can then go get whatever he wanted and return to my safe hex and start breaking things; thus providing me free exp. I would then be getting free exp while I'm not even at the computer.

[Watcher]

Well, true.

I still can make experience faster than breaking scales with other methods though.

hmmm, passwall...<click click>

[Mars]

Originally posted by Rygar


Answer me a few questions that I do not know the answers to please.

Could a ment invis party members and keep them invised while he kills stuff. Or does the invised person get no exp?


Could a ment bring a group of smaller players to an soloable place for the ment and very hard for the smaller players. Using illusion to get there and using illusion to keep monsters off of their hex. Now all the little guys could go afk. Add a healer in with the ment to cc and heal and I would think those two could get the little guys exp all day long while they were afk, even if not afk this would net tons of experience unearned with no risk. I mean as long as the healer cc's what risk would there be. Ah but being in the party earns the experience me forgets easy enough.

I am not wanting to know so i can cheat. Just trying to point out that the party break scandal is minor compared to other things out there. I have heard of killing a lair type monster behind some wall without chance of being hurt. Killing monsters from water or water illusions and the monster not being able to attack me is not cheating, or is it?

I personally party broke one item. I don't even bother breaking things myself anymore, for coin is far more important to me than experience right now.


Rygar

Rygar:

The scenario described in the 2nd paragragh is a no no. IMO, playing the game in any fashion while AFK is a form of scripting, the game is meant to be played not just logged in to gain exp/skill.

I haven't gotten an answer to the 3rd paragraph, so can not comment on it.

V/R

Mars

[Watcher]

Being AFK is not scripting, not even close to what scripting involves.

A mentalist using their discs to fight a lair is fair I do believe. Illusion or passwall techniques come to mind.

Simple to fix tho if there is that much concern about it, but won't get into that.

:zzz

[purg]

That is the problem, no matter what game, no matter how well planned out, no matter how hard you make things, there is ALWAYS a way to cheat the system. If brad was to take away all the party stuff, then what would be the point of partying except for skill, *sigh* I dont think there will be an easy fix to this whole mess, If brad scratches one persons back, the next person will be mad, if he scratches that persons back the other will be mad, Brad is sitting in the middle of tug-o-war, And the more you Rant and Rave over it the more he is going to draw back out of it. Instead of getting mad over the whole ordeal, Give him some reasons to put it back.
Like for instance, If there is to be a party break system, set it up to where there is a party break max, I.E. Party Wild goes over to PSI tower, they get through for the day up there, and the barb is ready to break stuff, a barb is able to break lets say 2megs worth of exp per party, if he reaches his limit in the party the whole party has to be broken and rejoined, that means if anyone is still within party Wild from before he will again recieve the message You have reached your limit on party break Exp, if they create a whole new party then he may start breaking til 2megs of Exp is reached again. This would prevent people from going AFK for long periods of time and letting the barb break stuff for mass amounts of EXP.

The reason i say Going AFK for long periods of time, cause there will be times you have to go AFK, Restroom, Screaming kid, Someone at door, ect ect.

So instead of argueing and yelling at brad see if you can reach a comprimise with him.
Them maybe he will be more willing to see things your way

[Eva]

I agree this is just so ubsurd there is not real logic behind this....what are yall actually trying to do to this game. Havn't you noticed this little patern..the more you make your changes the more ppl leave. Drakkar doesn't belong to one person it belongs to the whole community...i'm going out on a long shot here but if a majority of the community doesn't like the change shouldn't it be taken away, makes sense don't it.....i can understand something extremly vital to the games future but something as frivilous as this......

it was eithe Flisk or Mars made a responce early about someone complaining about how the music still isn't fixed and the sysop said that there is a list or objectives..........i just want to know is this whats on top of that list

[flisk]

When players abuse something and it causes them to gain something that was not intended; then yes, it takes priority. It's because of players like that; that the other players cannot enjoy things like music. To claify that; we have to spend more time dealing with things such as bug abuse and fixing them instead of working on why the sound does not function properly.

[purg]

You are just going to start butting heads with Brad you all, The more you fight against him the more he is going to lock his feet in and pretty soon you all are going to loose out totally, Take some time, plan out an idea and speak with brad either by Email or by Forums or just in chat. See if there is a way to get a comprimise going. You cant get no where if you dont give a little and let Brad have a chance to hear your ideas, instead of getting *figuratively* in his face and demanding something from him. You wouldnt do it to your boss or someone who owns something and wanting to use it.

Brad is there a chance you would sit down in IRC someplace or One of you sysops take an hour out of you time and set a date to sit down and speak with the Players on the possibility of laying down some ideas to get this feature back in the game some way or another? All im asking is a chance for the players to have a chance to speak, If you wish before the meeting set up a list of rules for players to go by. There could be the possibility of players Choosing Specific players from each Guild to go to this meeting, one who know how to keep a level head and are able to get an idea across without being insulting or demanding. This way it will clear the air of hostility and make the meeting run a little smoother, After the meeting is through then someone can post what was said somewhere for the rest of players to see what was said and if anything is to be done.
I know you all are busy with what you have to do, but in my opinion this is something of great importance to players and should be dealt with.

[Ragnoker]

After reading through this thread it is apparent to me that Brad took out the party break xp due to peeps going afk for long periods while staying in a party to gain xp from breaking.
Seems to me that Brad took that feature out without possibly looking at all possible solutions and did a quick fix.
Purg has a very good possible solution that should appease both Brad and the players ( excerpt below).
Purg's idea may or may not be the way to go but I am sure that a comprimise can be found

Ragnoker_PHNX

Originally posted by purg
Like for instance, If there is to be a party break system, set it up to where there is a party break max, I.E. Party Wild goes over to PSI tower, they get through for the day up there, and the barb is ready to break stuff, a barb is able to break lets say 2megs worth of exp per party, if he reaches his limit in the party the whole party has to be broken and rejoined, that means if anyone is still within party Wild from before he will again recieve the message You have reached your limit on party break Exp, if they create a whole new party then he may start breaking til 2megs of Exp is reached again. This would prevent people from going AFK for long periods of time and letting the barb break stuff for mass amounts of EXP.

[Dimitri]

Responses by the powers that be on the matter including brads email copy/paste serve only to confuse the matter even more. If anybody was to play the new DZ version for any length of time in places that drop "scales" they would realize that the drop rate is a dismal 3 to 8 on most areas that have scaler npcs and a 4 to 10 on heaver drop areas per hour. This would create a whoopie doo total of maybe 1.7 megs on the high end(10 scales). This is of course is assuming that every scale will break for 170k which is the average for these now infamous scales, and also assuming that 10 will drop per hour which is highly rare. The party exp distrubution also works the same as killing npcs. So therefore if a level 30+ barb breaking in a party with lets say, a level 20, he/she would recieve full exp while the smaller player would recieve a cut in exp. In other words breaking for exp as is for the killing npcs suffers the same penalties or cuts across the board. Scales drops have been reduced more then twice already if i recollect correctly. The exp per break has also been toned down a few times and the "tanner" bug corrected. In all fairness i do not know what relation this has to another bug according to brads email, it was rather vague to be honest (as always). But i do not see why/where there is a reason to get so paranoid. Again this does not improve the game nor does it (using the powers that be's logic) prevent players from loging in and getting exp for doing nothing. examples include a healers pwd or a ments shockwave etc....if that was the reason then logic would dictate that you would remedy that FIRST then focusing an avg 1 million exp points more per hour for breaking silly scales. And if there was a bug abuse problem gosh only knows we have enuff sysops on to deal with it, on the spot even! And I'm sure there not burdened with programming issues to be unavailable. This whole thing is a moot issue, but i hate to say a futile one like alot of other disagreeable changes. But since i love the game so much i gotta voice my opinion on it and in talking with friends it seems the majority think its a wee bit extreme in the wrong direction.
all imho. <g>
DiMz~;)

[Ravaillac]

Maybe the powers that be should just accept that "powerleveling strategies" exist in the game. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, either. Why shouldn't a group of people be able to develop their characters using teamwork? Why should it take forever for a newer player to catch up to the bigger players? In other games on the market it's not a problem. So why is it such a big deal in drakkar?

With scale-breaking, why not just split the experience? If scales break for 170k, instead of giving each person 170k, give each person a share of the 170k according to their EXP level. If a level 30 person and a level 20 person are partied, the level 30 person should get 60% of the 170k and the level person should get 40% of the 170k. The net experience gained remains the same (170k) whether one person gets the credit or whether the credit is shared.

[flisk]

the point is it was being abused. Players were loggin in and then leaving for the day; allowing someone else to make their exp for them.

[Dimitri]

Originally posted by flisk


the point is it was being abused. Players were loggin in and then leaving for the day; allowing someone else to make their exp for them.

point is that if that can be "observed" via logs or what not then they should be lockedout on the spot or givin a warning...ppl have gotten locked for lesser offenses. And if that was the case then party exp should be abolished completly due to the fact there are more productive ways of standing around getting exp while idle then standing around idle for a puny extra meg an hour off of rare scale drops. Only other way i see this whole issue as a possible abuse problem is if someone or some ppl have a super duper locker that can hold hundreds of scales to feed a smaller crit. if that is your bug issue or abuse issue then go after them don't get rid of something such as party break exp sharing thats been around for as long as i can remember and then say that was some byproduct of some change made couple months ago that was never fixed or changed back lol:hoho
this all using the same logic of course
laterz and hh
DiMz~

[Yeti]

scales busting could and quite possibly has been abused. but that does not mean that all the other players in drakkar need to be punished. The players that chose to abuse scale breaking can now just as easily go afk on twig hex in upper and have a party wipe out upper hall for them and get more xp then they ever thought of getting by breaking scales, and there is still zero risk to them.

Even back when you could tan scalers, the fastest you could do it was maybe a rate of 20m per hour, and that is if you have many many people getting scalers and tanning them, and at that rate the scalers will go extinct in less then an hour, at which point u can no longer be tanning them.

It would then, logically, be possible to have a person go AFK on tanner hex in doom and bring scales to them and break while in a party with them. Assuming the person has 4-5 friends who want to do that much work for them and get almost nothing in return <because if that many people were in the party the experience would be maybe 7m per hour or less, so im assuming they would not all be in the party> and then they can get 20m xp per hour, possibly they could do this every other hour or so, so 140m xp for sitting afk on tanners hex for 24 hours.

Now lets say that same person wanted to get exp just as fast with the current system. So they gather together a group of their friends, lets say 2 pwd healers, and they go down to km4 and the healers pwd for 24 hours while the guy sits safely AFK over by the km lair hole. I garantee you that the guy will make a comparable amount of xp and quite possibly even MORE xp <i dont have exact numbers because i have never used this method>and on top of it the 2 healers will make xp also.

Possibly this guy doesn't have any healer friends so he choses to call upon 2 pally friends of his to MS in upper keep while he sits AFK on twig hex. And he calls upon another of his friends to constantly feed zoos to his 2 pally friends. Again in this situation the guy is in absolutely no danger of dying, and again he will make 18-20m xp per hour.

Now, since scaler tanning has been removed, the most any human can make in keep is 20 scales per hour, and thats if your SUPER lucky, so that equals out to 3.4m xp per hour. Now why in the world would that guy choose to have his friends break scales for him for a measly 3.4m xp per hour when he could just sit afk in upper or in km4 and get 18-20m per hour?

I see why the scaler tanning was removed, and even though i think it is a load of bull, it is brads decision. But since that is removed, breaking scales in parties cannot lead to any sort of monumental gains at all. And therefore removing this ability is simply punishment for a group of people who pay cold hard cash to play a game they love and have done nothing wrong. You are choosing to punish the public who did nothing wrong just to attempt to stem the AFK xping of a few people, and all the while you don't seem to see that the problem has already been fixed. So basically you are punishing the public for no good reason at all, while the cheaters have simply moved on to new methods of getting experience. You guys call the shots and theres nothing we can do about it, but there is no reason to punish a group of people whose only wrongdoing is paying you guys 5 or more dollars every month to play the game they love and have been playing for several years in most cases. If you want to further punish those who exploited the bugs then lock their accounts or roll them back, but don't take out your anger on the rest of the drakkar world.

Yeti, the annoyed barbarian

[Dragonslayer]

the way to solve a lot off problem and prevent abusive play;

Kick those who are inactive for a while, and give party breaking back to the dumb barbs who think its usefull.

that way, it will also help[ people who would, for example, have to grab the fun, and find themselves to be in a long talk, while their character is in a area where critters raom.

the time limit should be like 15 minutes, so that when someone needs to visit the badroom, he has enough time (unless he has real problems 0_o), and if it takes longer, they will be happy that they don't get asked questions while being AFK.

this is just a humble idea, but think about it.

[Avenger]

No party breaking. Uther lair was a classic example where party breaking was a good Idea. Uther steals all kinds of exp from your party, not to mention secondary skill. A succsesfull hunt used to mean that you could give back some exp to your party that lost so much. Oh, and didn't they nerf the the exp from the gambler? Wasn't the psimirror in the game nerfed. Didn't they add loss of hp to nork lairs that didn't have it before? and so on and so on.

Didn't they call all these things "bugs"? Even though I've played the game for 2 years with them and didn't know they were bugs until the powers that be "said" they were bugs.

In my oppion it is a deliberate attempt to slow the growth of players. The longer it takes to reach level 30 the more cash they get from each player. Simple.

AND IT SIMPLE HACKS OFF PLAYERS WHO ARE TIRED OF YOU CHANGING THE GAME EVERY TIME THEY TURN AROUND!!!

IF PEOPLE ARE ABUSING THE GAME, LOCK THE OFFENDER, BAN HIM, KICK HIM, DO WHAT EVER TO HIM. NOT TO THOSE THAT DON'T.

One more of these changes and I'm gone..simple.

[Lago]

Originally posted by Avenger
One more of these changes and I'm gone..simple.

I have seen these kinds of threats in every game I play. I for one enjoy that challenges change, strategy evolves and gameplay alters. If you feel that you have to vote against these changes with your dollars, then do so. Just dont be one of those people who continually threaten to quit because of a change, then continue to come back again and again.

Fact is the party experience for breaking gear was an exploitable situation that was shut down by Brad when he found it. Was there a more elegant solution? Probably. Would most of the players rather he spend time programming for a bug, or programming for content and enhancements? My guess is most players would prefer new content and enhancements.

Just my 2 gold pieces...

[Watcher]

Originally posted by Lago

Originally posted by Avenger
One more of these changes and I'm gone..simple.

I have seen these kinds of threats in every game I play. I for one enjoy that challenges change, strategy evolves and gameplay alters. If you feel that you have to vote against these changes with your dollars, then do so. Just dont be one of those people who continually threaten to quit because of a change, then continue to come back again and again.

Fact is the party experience for breaking gear was an exploitable situation that was shut down by Brad when he found it. Was there a more elegant solution? Probably. Would most of the players rather he spend time programming for a bug, or programming for content and enhancements? My guess is most players would prefer new content and enhancements.

Just my 2 gold pieces...

Let us know who exploited it and we can publicallly humiliate them

:D

[Morgar]

Originally posted by flisk


the point is it was being abused. Players were loggin in and then leaving for the day; allowing someone else to make their exp for them.

Why not just put an activity timer on people? If the person is inactive for a period of time, say 10 to 15 minutes, boot them off. 10 to 15 minutes is more than adequate for potty breaks, phone calls, screaming kids, house fires etc... :D

Morgar