SK -008 Feed back

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Nevyn
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SK -008 Feed back

Post by Nevyn »

Brad, the bringing back of a more nork/aleria combat feel is awesome to see in the game again. However, it is causing some combat issues due to changes in the way damage was dealt out in GDH+ areas of the game. In short, due to Player AC bring so high the game was tuned around monsters swinging multiple times per round for huge about of damage if they ever connected, yet the long period between actually getting hit lead to chances for the player to recover. In this new combat set up on test we are hit by 25%ish or more of the attacks, and even with the tune down those attacks are 50%, or more in some cases, of the player health. In addition, PWH was limited previously to only heal 2500 health, however incoming damage from a single engaged creature can be in excess of 6k per round now, which most psi must be buffed to survive.

In essence the effective health of our characters is extremely low. Even Ozo Plate (best armor in the game) has only 250 damage ABS giving an effective 10% or less mitigation. the below changes are all things which can effect our effective health

Changes that will help: these are just a few possible changes in a large spectrum of the possible.

Short term
*Damage per hit from NPCs needs to be greatly reduced


Long Term: Possible changes - note not all are appropriate but some mix will help
Itemization:
*Itemization across the classes providing different levels of Mitigation
*Itemization providing avoidance to classes (IE Shield/etc)
*Items providing passive health regen allow for characters in engage in solo fights (once incoming damage is tuned)
*Items which provide Vamp abilities to melee

*Spells IE Autoheal and ES are currently useless. (these spells help make up for lack of other defense)
*Everything hits past AH trigger for players by a very large margin
* EnergyShield does not provide enough damage ABS to be currently relevant
*PWH possible needs to have amount healed adjusted depending on character effective health (currently getting hit multiple times a round for more than it heals)
* an example of tier buffs could be pally buffs having additional damage ABS added

Brad
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Re: SK -008 Feed back

Post by Brad »

Thanks!!

Stay tuned for patch notes.. the nerf hammer is swinging.

Nevyn
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Re: SK -008 Feed back

Post by Nevyn »

Brad, I should note this testing was done in sullen keep on miner cave and this silver armor area which requires level 86. My apologies for not identifying

max|pic
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Re: SK -008 Feed back

Post by max|pic »

I agree with nevyn. I know patch 009 might fix some of it, but PWH should not be limited to 2500 anymore. On patch 008, having 2 healers stacking PWH does not stop all death.
The easiest fix would be giving higher hp 75+ and removing max on PWH.
If after 75 pcs got an extra 200 hps per lvl, they would have 2000 more hps at 85 . 3000 at 90.
This would allow for every thing to still keep multiple attacks with some more minor damage and bonus to hit nerfing, but allowing pcs to have hp to live in sullen keep.

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Darge
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Re: SK -008 Feed back

Post by Darge »

Power word heal is one of the worst spells in this game. An entire class more or less reduced to one button.

Gift of healing is the current best HoT for healers and is outstripped by the party leadership ability Healthy Regen. It's a pre primal tier, and deserves a primal upgrade.

At the same time, healers need a non fire and forget type HoT tier that they can unload when the party is taking heavy spread damage. Something like a 2k aoe HoT with a 3 round duration and 10 round recast.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

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Re: SK -008 Feed back

Post by max|pic »

Darge, if you think all a healer is used for is PWH and for get them, please don't comment about something you know nothing about.
I do agree having a tier pwh type ability would be great, but it would then be stacked with PWH. Gift of healing and party points cannot currently keep a Party alive in sullen keep (since this topic is on sullen keep). If you believe so, then maybe you should not comment at all.

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Darge
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Re: SK -008 Feed back

Post by Darge »

I'm not here to debate you, I'm here to explain to Brad what healers need to be an engaging and effective class, regardless of the broken state of the content.

Save the negativity for someone who cares.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

max|pic
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Re: SK -008 Feed back

Post by max|pic »

Like I said, if you know nothing about healers, don't post about them. Healers are the best all around class in the game.
Survivability for most situations. Check
Good damage output. Check
Only class that can heal a party. Check
Needed on current lairs. Check
Makes any party more effective. Check

So healers are not the useless class you somehow believe.

Also, if you want to post on sullen keep testing, how about getting your own character to 85 to do some testing. That way you will have a good idea of what to say.

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Darge
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Re: SK -008 Feed back

Post by Darge »

Never said healers were useless. Haven't given a single piece of feedback on Sullen Keep.

Seriously, take your grudge elsewhere.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

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Areyekuwe
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Re: SK -008 Feed back

Post by Areyekuwe »

Darge wrote:Never said healers were useless. Haven't given a single piece of feedback on Sullen Keep.
Seriously, take your grudge elsewhere.
It does not sound like a grudge.

This subforum and thread are for Sullen Keep.
Is Darge in Sullen Keep? -I do not think so.
Max has 4 healers of 85+ exp levels in Sullen Keep.
Darge wrote:Power word heal is one of the worst spells in this game. An entire class more or less reduced to one button.

Gift of healing is the current best HoT for healers and is outstripped by the party leadership ability Healthy Regen. It's a pre primal tier, and deserves a primal upgrade.

At the same time, healers need a non fire and forget type HoT tier that they can unload when the party is taking heavy spread damage. Something like a 2k aoe HoT with a 3 round duration and 10 round recast.

Also if you have seen what Max does, well he runs a party of healers actually, and actually in Sullen Keep.
Then you will know that healers are only reduced to one button if player running that healer wants to do that, but there are options.

So this thread discusses content of Sullen Keep a lot and how to enjoy that current expansion. Maybe when you get there with a healer then you will know what you want to enjoy it fully? Currently you are running a pre level 80 Paladin, right?

I say you are consistently drawing negativity your way by attempting to be know-it-all.
But you don't because no one is.
And in your case you seem to miss that point over and over.
Last edited by Areyekuwe on Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Darge
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Re: SK -008 Feed back

Post by Darge »

Areyekuwe wrote:
Darge wrote:Never said healers were useless. Haven't given a single piece of feedback on Sullen Keep.
Seriously, take your grudge elsewhere.
It does not sound like a grudge.

This is a subforum and thread are for Sullen Keep. Darge is not in Sullen Keep.
I do not think so.
Max has 4 healer of 85+ exp levels in Sullen Keep.


Wrong. This is a sub forum for both Sullen Keep testing and now testing of Brad's extensive changes to the underlying game. Class balance is on the table and being discussed here, hence feedback.
Areyekuwe wrote:
Darge wrote:Power word heal is one of the worst spells in this game. An entire class more or less reduced to one button.

Gift of healing is the current best HoT for healers and is outstripped by the party leadership ability Healthy Regen. It's a pre primal tier, and deserves a primal upgrade.

At the same time, healers need a non fire and forget type HoT tier that they can unload when the party is taking heavy spread damage. Something like a 2k aoe HoT with a 3 round duration and 10 round recast.

Also if you have seen what Max does, well he runs a party of healers actually, and actually in Sullen Keep.
Then you will know that healers are only reduced to one button if player running that healer wants to do that, but there are options.

So this thread discusses content of Sullen Keep a lot and how to enjoy that current expansion. Maybe when you get there with a healer then you will know what you want to enjoy it fully? Currently you are running a pre level 80 Paladin, right?

I say you are consistently drawing negativity your way by attempting to be know-it-all.
But you don't because no one is.
And in your case you seem to miss that point over and over.

I don't even play my paladin.

You know what's funny? I say healers are overly reliant on one button (PWH), after one person said PWH couldn't keep up with damage output and another had posted that two healers spamming PWH couldn't keep his party up and the second comes back and tries to put words in my mouth about the class being useless. And furthermore, while you folks complain about numbers, I'm talking about a class kit issues. You're focused on turning existing knobs, and I'm talking about adding more knobs.

Healers have two primary buttons to heal, primal mending and PWH. PWH is the main driver of healing, being a strong aoe and able to be used in conjunction with haste. And here we have talk of buffing an aoe heal to be able to put out even more when it has no diminishing returns on bringing more healers to spam it, can be hasted, and can easily account for the majority of their healing.

But I'm sure you already know that, since you have 4 lvl 85 healers in your group and you must only want power word heal buffed because it's useless. Right?
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

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Areyekuwe
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Re: SK -008 Feed back

Post by Areyekuwe »

What is your point? Are you not the one arguing? About what?

Current game changes and change issues were triggered by the new expansion. Which is for 85+ exp characters. Now if you do not have 85+ character you simply would not now what's going on.
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Darge
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Re: SK -008 Feed back

Post by Darge »

Current game changes were triggered by a breakdown in formulae that started presenting issues in sdc2, and only reached a tipping point in Sullen Keep. And now those same changes are having ripple effects through virtually every level band in the game since GDH and have important implications for balancing all classes.

Your argument: healers need one of their 2 existing heal buttons buffed.
My argument: healers need more healing buttons.

Maybe you should work on backing up your point of view rather than hanging on to the, "you're not 85!", ad hominem as long as you can. It won't last much longer.
SIN
My father was a wolf, I'm a kinsman of the slain, Sworn to rise again
I will bring salvation, punishment and pain, The hammer of hate is our faith
Power and dominion are taken by the will, By divine right hail and kill

trav: you bad bad girl

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Areyekuwe
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Re: SK -008 Feed back

Post by Areyekuwe »

All good points you know.

No argument from me about healer buffs either.

So instead of talking about this and that imagine a oneliner:
"Darge: maybe recent end game needs more powerful, new healer buff. But I would not know because I am not there"
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Re: SK -008 Feed back

Post by Teh_Cheat »

Areyekuwe wrote: "Darge: maybe recent end game needs more powerful, new healer buff. But I would not know because I am not there"
And there's the refrain!

Let's not pretend the play styles in SK are dramatically different than previous content in NL/GDH. Our feedback is going to be given on class balance no matter how many times you scream, "You aren't 85!"

You can choose to accept that others have opinions/ideas that differ from your own, or you can continue to fall back on that sweet eighty-five line.
SIN

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Areyekuwe
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Re: SK -008 Feed back

Post by Areyekuwe »

And I do not believe to be screaming.

And feedback is great.

And that feedback is not for me or Max, it is for Brad.

And when there is whole lot of other "stuff" written into that feedback that is just erroneous, you will have "your feedback" too.

And I do believe that you will soon make it to 85 AND that would not automatically change anyone's writing style.
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Areyekuwe
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Re: SK -008 Feed back

Post by Areyekuwe »

Teh_Cheat wrote:
Areyekuwe wrote: "Darge: maybe recent end game needs more powerful, new healer buff. But I would not know because I am not there"
And there's the refrain!

Let's not pretend the play styles in SK are dramatically different than previous content in NL/GDH. Our feedback is going to be given on class balance no matter how many times you scream, "You aren't 85!"

You can choose to accept that others have opinions/ideas that differ from your own, or you can continue to fall back on that sweet eighty-five line.
Let's just get to SK then you will know for sure.
But common sense is so uncommon, that you do not seem to care and now find that for me to point out the obvious to you is in some way insulting.
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Nevyn
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Re: SK -008 Feed back

Post by Nevyn »

Please note this is discussing the many different changes to the game and that buffing pwh was a suggestion for the current damage and as mentioned not necessary pending other changes. Other possibilities include a reverse damage shield.

Also top end healers also dps w primal assault and heal if they are good. Along with keeping up aid and Autoheal, tho auto heal is useless in sk.

However. Let us make separate class balancing posts if that is what is needed and keep feed back to holes in current processes

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