Cave weapons - Scaling issue / Hunting Area

Brad
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Cave weapons - Scaling issue / Hunting Area

Post by Brad »

Just wanted to thank all the guys giving great feedback on the new area.

1) I'm aware of the scaling issues with most of the new weapons. The damage is supposed to scale by level ( post 86), but i must have messed something up as they are all hitting at their max, no matter what the level.

2) I'm also appreciative of the feedback regarding the size of the caves area. I don't have an immediate place to expand it to, but i will be working to find a way to increase the size of this hunting area, as well as increase regen rate.


Thanks!
brad

Serefin
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Re: Cave weapons - Scaling issue / Hunting Area

Post by Serefin »

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qmtu
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Re: Cave weapons - Scaling issue / Hunting Area

Post by qmtu »

The level 85 weapons seem to have been over-nerfed.
I would think a weapon which is an extremely rare drop in a level 85+ area should start out hitting harder than a level 55 killer weapon, and on par with level 85 weapons from sdc3.
It is ok to scale up the damage, but maybe have a higher starting point.
Thanks.

Brad
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Re: Cave weapons - Scaling issue / Hunting Area

Post by Brad »

i'm looking at the logs, and at 86 they seem to hit WAY harder than maxed killers.

Can you provide a specific example?

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Re: Cave weapons - Scaling issue / Hunting Area

Post by max|pic »

Brad, the damage now on my 87 pally is way lower than it was before the patch. I understand this, but it is now not as good as broom. It is better than killer, but for an 85 required weapon, there should be a vast difference between killer (55 weapon) and the 85 or 86 required weapons.
I see more 7 and 8k hits than ever before, which is not very high for the scenario.

Since the weapons start out at 85 required to use, they should start out at brooms damage at the minimum, if not start out at spear damage. I personally think a bit under spear damage starting out.

Comparing a weapon with 30 levels of required difference is not something that should ever happen.
Killer 55 (quest)
Broom 80 (lair quest)
Spear 85 (very rare)
New Nork Weapons 85 (rare)
Miner axe 86 (uncommon)
Just due to rarity and level requirement, the new weapons should start out between broom and spear. at 86 equal spear. at 87 be better than spear. and so on.
Miner axe due to it being uncommon, but an 86 item, it should start out at same as broom. By the time it hits 90, it should be same damage as the nork weapons at 88.

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Areyekuwe
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Re: Cave weapons - Scaling issue / Hunting Area

Post by Areyekuwe »

So, at level 85 exp torturous impalement does 1100 a round 2 days ago. Now at exp level 86 it does 1000 a round....

So, we can assume 20% reduction overall at current levels?

Takes all the excitement away from these weapons.
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Re: Cave weapons - Scaling issue / Hunting Area

Post by Brad »

Areyekuwe wrote:So, at level 85 exp torturous impalement does 1100 a round 2 days ago. Now at exp level 86 it does 1000 a round....

So, we can assume 20% reduction overall at current levels?

Takes all the excitement away from these weapons.
( This isn't a disc thread ).. but i'll answer.

No change to tort impalement. is and always has been 1k. Most likely there was a boost or some other effect making you see the 1.1

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Re: Cave weapons - Scaling issue / Hunting Area

Post by Brad »

max|pic wrote:Brad, the damage now on my 87 pally is way lower than it was before the patch. I understand this, but it is now not as good as broom. It is better than killer, but for an 85 required weapon, there should be a vast difference between killer (55 weapon) and the 85 or 86 required weapons.
I see more 7 and 8k hits than ever before, which is not very high for the scenario.

Since the weapons start out at 85 required to use, they should start out at brooms damage at the minimum, if not start out at spear damage. I personally think a bit under spear damage starting out.

Comparing a weapon with 30 levels of required difference is not something that should ever happen.
Killer 55 (quest)
Broom 80 (lair quest)
Spear 85 (very rare)
New Nork Weapons 85 (rare)
Miner axe 86 (uncommon)
Just due to rarity and level requirement, the new weapons should start out between broom and spear. at 86 equal spear. at 87 be better than spear. and so on.
Miner axe due to it being uncommon, but an 86 item, it should start out at same as broom. By the time it hits 90, it should be same damage as the nork weapons at 88.
No way an entry level random drop should top the damage of the uber lair hunt drop from the previous area ( broom ).

Should be doing way more than spear though. Damage logs show significantly more damage ( i've still got it turned on ). If i'm missing a combo, let me know.. ( since spear is rare drop from previous area, YES these should start out more than that .. )

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Re: Cave weapons - Scaling issue / Hunting Area

Post by Serefin »

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Re: Cave weapons - Scaling issue / Hunting Area

Post by Areyekuwe »

Just wow.

Brad?

Spear is your ultimate top damage weapon pre Sullen Keep not broom.

Some people spend up to a year trying to get it.

As it is a random drop in hardest area with tiny % of showing up it is way more difficult to get then broom.

This is the knowledge on the "street".

Some, not all weapons were causing more damage then spear by about 10 to 20%.
Obviously there is benefit of ability to belt them all but besento. But that alone in most cases wwould not be enough to make people use them.

The idea is killers, broom above, spear above, sullen keep tiny bit above spear with diversity and ability to belt<--- that made them great.....
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Re: Cave weapons - Scaling issue / Hunting Area

Post by Serefin »

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Re: Cave weapons - Scaling issue / Hunting Area

Post by Areyekuwe »

Yep.

Major Killjoy.

That and overabundance of little green gems, will haunt you in your sleep.
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Re: Cave weapons - Scaling issue / Hunting Area

Post by Serefin »

A broom was doing 200 damage to crits in the first area of sullen keep. Just letting you know, since I doubt you checked your e-mail from the first day of testing. 200 flat, 220 on some, you should've picked that up in the damage log.

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Re: Cave weapons - Scaling issue / Hunting Area

Post by Brad »

Okay,

Getting some conflicting feedback on this, so i'll arrange some more testing, and my comments are getting mis-associated.

I actually like maxpics chart, its a pretty good list of where things should be.

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Re: Cave weapons - Scaling issue / Hunting Area

Post by max|pic »

Brad, it is not uncommon in your areas for the new content beginning weapons to outdamage the former content weapons.
Examples include cob store bought weapons being better than saber or firegiant hally.
Improved saber (was a beginning weapon) being better than nork saber.
Merkon Shortsword being better than light shortsword.

The spear has been the best weapon in the game for a while now. Broom is good because it is beltable and easier to get.
Spear is silver, glowing, powerweapon. Broom is glowing. The new 85 weapons are powerweapons.
The 86 miner axe is glowing.
The 86 miner weapon damage is a bit better than a killer weapon. Killer weapons are 55 required. so 31 lvls difference.
The 85 weapons were a bit better than spear, which is understandable because it is a new area, and they were not glowing silver like spear.
now they are between killer weapons and brooms. That completely removes the point of even having them at 85 instead of dropping off a higher lvl floor at 88 required because they will not be used until at least lvl 88 or 89.
The 86 miner axe is glowing and uncommon, but it should still not be compared to a lvl 55 required weapon.
It should be on par with the 85 weapons and spear due to it being uncommon. There were no axes before hand, so having to skill axe for those that didn't is the difficulty in the weapon.
55 killer weapon
80 broom, 81 to get (hardest lair, everyone on lair gets one)
85 spear (extremely rare, prior area)
85 new nork weapons (rare, current area)
86 miner axe (uncommon, current area)
So it should go spear/new nork weapons > miner axe > broom > anything else > killer

I know you have a lot on your plate, but you asked us to test and give feedback. So I am trying to be as patient as possible and give you a fair and honest opinion on what I think needs changed.

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Re: Cave weapons - Scaling issue / Hunting Area

Post by Brad »

max|pic wrote:
I know you have a lot on your plate, but you asked us to test and give feedback. So I am trying to be as patient as possible and give you a fair and honest opinion on what I think needs changed.
Oh i definitely appreciate it, i'm just challenged to follow a specific topic for feedback without introduction of unrelated factors.

The topic is cave weapons and scaling.. and your chart is great. It just got muddled when i tried to piece together multiple topics for response. Like.. i have a question i need to ask about what you are saying .. but i'm challenged on how to ask it without frustrating readers.

Brad

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Re: Cave weapons - Scaling issue / Hunting Area

Post by Brad »

Okay i'll jump in the deep end here.

I see you are thinking things through max, but i'm getting confusing feedback on where things ARE and where they SHOULD be.

Make me two lists.. one is the list you created, (where things should be)

Then, make a list of where you think they ARE. You can put a comma and note differences (like silver, etc ).

But .. please.. dont list it if you dont really know.. i'm getting enough of that :)

Thanks!

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Re: Cave weapons - Scaling issue / Hunting Area

Post by Darge »

Tortuous impalement is a gdh2 Era disc from the jungle bow. It was garbage then and it's garbage now. No one wants an on hit dot proc that just keeps overwriting itself instead of dealing raw damage.

And while we're on the topic of weapon damage, it's a good time to mention how out of whack things have gotten post sdc2. We're well in the territory of MUDflation now. Nork to cob wasn't this big a jump, and the last time something happened like this was 9 years or so ago when we went from nork weapons to killer weapons, a necessary evil due to cobrahn being it's own sandbox at the time.

If anything, Brad, you need to do some across the board nerfing of weapons post sdc2 so that they fall better in line with the rate of increase we saw from killer progression. Whole classes have been made unviable with this stuff. Tune damage output through npc hp and ac values, and melee/elemental dmg resists, not by shooting melee weapon damage values way up and making things ridiculously hard to hit.
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Re: Cave weapons - Scaling issue / Hunting Area

Post by max|pic »

I can do that brad, do u want it in forums or email?

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Re: Cave weapons - Scaling issue / Hunting Area

Post by Brad »

Forums is fine. I dont mind the debate, just trying to zero in on topics without getting sidetracked into other things.

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Re: Cave weapons - Scaling issue / Hunting Area

Post by max|pic »

Ok brad, I will type it up while I am at work, about to leave now, lol :lol:
Just gotta get there before I can start typing it :roll:

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Re: Cave weapons - Scaling issue / Hunting Area

Post by Serefin »

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Brad
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Re: Cave weapons - Scaling issue / Hunting Area

Post by Brad »

Serefin wrote:
Brad wrote: Haha, sorry Brad, I'll be sure to post screenshots and picture comparisons for future reference so you can visualize it.
I'm a dad of four, i need single line sentences with a single verb noun and preposition :)

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Re: Cave weapons - Scaling issue / Hunting Area

Post by max|pic »

Current damage (part of this is from testing I did you you in the past brad, others are from what I have seen)
Killer weapon average damage is just over 5k (can be glowing, silver, pweapon) 55 required
broom has average damage of 10k. (Glowing) 80 required
Broom was almost a full 100% upgrade from killer. Damage was from testing for you.
Spear average is between 12.5k and 14k. (Glowing, silver, pweapon) 85 required
so spear had a 25 to 40% upgrade over broom.
currently 85 weapons average around 7 to 8k damage, previously much higher, closer to 16 to 18k. (Pweapon) 85 required
I have not done a lot of testing on axe, but what I did, average looked about 6k.(glowing) 86 required
Current damage is
Killer 5k
Miner axe 6k
85 nork weapons 7 to 8k
Broom 10k
spear 12.5 to 14k
So spear > broom > 85 nork > miner axe > killer

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Re: Cave weapons - Scaling issue / Hunting Area

Post by max|pic »

Sorry for the work delay-
My recommendation is as follows
85 weapons > spear > miner axe > broom > killer
85 weapons average at
85 should be 11k
86 should be 12.5k
87 should be 14k
88should be 15.5k
89 17k
90 18.5k
or keep 85 weapons from lvling and set them at 15.5k while putting a 89 required one in at18.5k.
there also needs to be a quest for glowing and silver for them. 85 weapon should let you hunt sullen forest.
axe should be 86 12k
87 13k
88 14k
89 15k
90 16k
lower due to much more common
totems currently give a psi damage boost of around 25% for 82 lc totems.
For 86 to keep up with melee the totems should be raised to 40%. Not a game breaking jump, but a helpful increase.

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